Protestants: Is Mary Highly Favored?

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Protestants aren’t so much trying to downgrade Mary as they are trying to emphasize their disagreement with what they see as Catholics praying to her. Mary, no doubt, was one-of-a-kind, however, I don’t believe she was sinless, I don’t believe in the immaculate conception, and I believe she had other children. This is simply because these things aren’t in Scripture and they are not required beliefs for salvation. If someone wants to believe in the immaculate conception or Mary’s perpetual virginity that’s fine, but don’t call someone unChristian if they don’t believe it. In short, Mary deserves our respect, but not our reverence. Hope everyone’s Holy Week is going well and have a Blessed Resurrection Sunday.
 
Saints are Biblical, Intercession is Biblical. And Jesus through Mary is what the War with Lucifer and Michael in heaven was over…Biblical. The Annunciation is Gods ArcAngels in Agreement to Gods Will and His plan, Biblical, then set in Action.

What part did you think didn’t work right so far with Mary?
 
stevekehl said:
Protestants aren’t so much trying to downgrade Mary as they are trying to emphasize their disagreement with what they see as Catholics praying to her. Mary, no doubt, was one-of-a-kind, however, I don’t believe she was sinless, I don’t believe in the immaculate conception, and I believe she had other children. This is simply because these things aren’t in Scripture and they are not required beliefs for salvation. If someone wants to believe in the immaculate conception or Mary’s perpetual virginity that’s fine, but don’t call someone unChristian if they don’t believe it. In short, Mary deserves our respect, but not our reverence. Hope everyone’s Holy Week is going well and have a Blessed Resurrection Sunday.
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Then you must not see Mary as the Mother of Our Lord…

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:43[/BIBLEDRB]
 
stewstew03 said:
The problem as I see it is that protestants go out of their way to distance themselves from Catholic dogma by interpreting kecharitomene as “highly favored” - as if that somehow contradicts the notion that she was full of God’s grace.
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Stew, have you considered looking at the verse in some more modern Catholic Bibles?..such as the New Jerusalem Bible or New American Bible?
 
stevekehl said:
Protestants aren’t so much trying to downgrade Mary as they are trying to emphasize their disagreement with what they see as Catholics praying to her. Mary, no doubt, was one-of-a-kind, however, I don’t believe she was sinless, I don’t believe in the immaculate conception, and I believe she had other children. This is simply because these things aren’t in Scripture and they are not required beliefs for salvation. If someone wants to believe in the immaculate conception or Mary’s perpetual virginity that’s fine, but don’t call someone unChristian if they don’t believe it. In short, Mary deserves our respect, but not our reverence. Hope everyone’s Holy Week is going well and have a Blessed Resurrection Sunday.
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Steve I was raised cofc campbellite and left, precisely over what I saw as idolatry directed to the bible.

I don’t believe in CENI anymore, and don’t go to the bible for permission for everything.

We may be talking different CsofC, I was raised and dunked in the hardcore accapella CofC, we would never have dreamed of posting on a Catholic board, so I see a lot of progress in the CofC. BTW in my former CofC Easter was never mentioned, let alone celebrated since it was “unscriptural”.

May you and yours have a holy Feast of the Ressurection as well.
 
BTW, as members of THE CofC we would have never called ourselves Protestants. We were taught that we were the only Christians in the only church Christ has.
 
Radical said:
Stew, have you considered looking at the verse in some more modern Catholic Bibles?..such as the New Jerusalem Bible or New American Bible?
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Yes - and as I said, I have no problem with that interpretation. The question is, how do protestants reach the conclusion that “highly favored” or “God’s favor” contradicts “full of grace”?
 
stewstew03 said:
Yes - and as I said, I have no problem with that interpretation. The question is, how do protestants reach the conclusion that “highly favored” or “God’s favor” contradicts “full of grace”?
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I do not think they reach a conclusion that highly favored contradicts full of grace. They disagree with the Roman Catholic assertion that full of grace equates to her sinlessness.
 
stewstew03 said:
It has been argued before that in Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel greets Mary as “highly favored” rather than “full of grace.”

Leaving aside the proper translation of the Greek word ‘κεχαριτωμένη’ (kecharitomene) is there really a distinction between “highly favored” and “full of grace”? I would argue that there is no distinction as this word is used only to describe Mary, and Luke goes on to write that she has indeed found favor with God.

Keep in mind, this was an angel of God sent to greet Mary with news about our Savior, so please don’t try to argue that "highly favored’ is akin to an evangelical preacher telling you that “Jesus loves you.”

(Catholics - feel free to disagree with me as well. Does it weaken the argument that Mary was sinless if the Blessed Mother was greeted as “highly favored”?)
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HERE IT IS IN BOTH THE VULGATE AND THE Douay Rheims

The Latin Vulgate (VUL) 26 in mense autem sexto missus est angelus Gabrihel a Deo in civitatem Galilaeae cui nomen Nazareth , 27 ad virginem desponsatam viro cui nomen erat Ioseph de domo David et nomen virginis ***28 et ingressus angelus ad eam dixit have gratia plena Dominus tecum benedicta tu in mulieribus ***. 29 quae cum vidisset turbata est in sermone eius et cogitabat qualis esset ista salutatio . 30 et ait angelus ei ne timeas Maria invenisti enim gratiam apud Deum

**Douay-Rheims (RHE) **
“26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth Maria 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David: and the virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women 29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be 30 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.”

“FULL OF GRACE” IS CERTAINLY “FINDING FAVOR” but!!!

**“FINDING FAVOR IS NOT EQUAL TO THE CORRECT TRANSLATION OF FULL OF GRACE” **AMEN:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat
 
IggyAntiochus said:
I do not think they reach a conclusion that highly favored contradicts full of grace. They disagree with the Roman Catholic assertion that full of grace equates to her sinlessness.
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Well, here is a quote from Matt Slick explaining that Catholics created false doctrine based on a bad translation of kexaritomena:
The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena “Hail full of grace.’” Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation
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. Of course, it cannot correct itself since so much is invested in the worship, adoration, and prayer to Mary in the Roman Catholic Church and to recant of this false teaching would greatly lessen its credibility…

What does the Greek say [in Luke 1:28] for “highly favored one”? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. It does not mean “full of grace” which is “plaras karitos” (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.

Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.

The short version: kexaritomena doesn’t mean “full of grace” and therefore Catholic doctrine is erroneous.

My point: even translating it as “highly favored” doesn’t change that Mary was without sin.

Question: can the Mother of God at any point oppose her own Son? Can Jesus and Mary be rivals?
 
What does the Greek say [in Luke 1:28] for “highly favored one”? It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored,** make accepted**, make graceful, etc. It does not mean “full of grace” which is “plaras karitos” (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.
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If, as Matt Slick says, she was “made accepted”; as the Mother of God she must have been made that way by God. Seems like she ** had ** to be full of Grace.

Personally, I find Matt Slick to be embarrassing. One among many of the screeching money grubbers.
 
stewstew03 said:
Well, here is a quote from Matt Slick explaining that Catholics created false doctrine based on a bad translation of kexaritomena:

The short version: kexaritomena doesn’t mean “full of grace” and therefore Catholic doctrine is erroneous.

My point: even translating it as “highly favored” doesn’t change that Mary was without sin.

Question: can the Mother of God at any point oppose her own Son? Can Jesus and Mary be rivals?
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Well, no…I don’t think the two versions are at odds with one another. It’s a bit silly to attack the translation. While in some cases doctrine can be affected by how we read them, I don’t think that to be the case here. Nor is, fortunately, Matt Slick representative of 90% of Protestants out there on any given topic.

(P. S. professional apologists drive me crazy)
 
stewstew03 said:
I don’t disagree with you.

Still, if a protestant translates the verse as Mary being “highly favored” - I fail to see the distinction between “you are highly favored by God (and have been highly favored by God) so I will send an angel to greet you” and “you are full of grace.” In other words, their mis-interpretation of the Greek text does not change Mary’s standing with God. No other person in the NT finds favor with God in the way that He favors Mary. What is the state of being highly favored by God if it is not being in a state of God’s full grace?
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You had me at “I don’t disagree with you”.

This is plenty.
 
stewstew03 said:
Well, here is a quote from Matt Slick explaining that Catholics created false doctrine based on a bad translation of kexaritomena:

The short version: kexaritomena doesn’t mean “full of grace” and therefore Catholic doctrine is erroneous.

My point: even translating it as “highly favored” doesn’t change that Mary was without sin.

Question: can the Mother of God at any point oppose her own Son? Can Jesus and Mary be rivals?
Click to expand...
Interesting set of cd’s on the subject by Tim Staples “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed”.

Eve (see Early Church Fathers) ties the knot of disobedience, the 1st Eve.
Mary, the 2nd Eve, unties the knot of disobedience

God has the ultimate sense of humor!

Eva in Latin reverses to “AVE” which means “HAIL” or “KAIRE, Kecharitomene” as in “Hail, Full of Grace” = the only time in scripture where a WOMAN is ADDRESSED as a King or Governor. Gabriel is depicted in art as to always kneeling to her, his superior. Gabriel doesn’t say “Mary, Full of Grace” doesn’t he, but she receives a most powerful “TITLE CHANGE” similar to name changes Abram/Abraham, Sarai/Sarah, Simon/Peter.

Kecharitomene - full of grace continually, can’t take on any more grace
vs.
St. Stephen the Martyr’s Pleres Charitas = only full of grace at the time of his stoning, a short duration.

Mary was full of grace from the moment of her existence; if she is full, she’s full folks, cannot take anymore grace. She was preserved from sin, hence “the Immaculate Conception” but admits to being saved in the Magnificat “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” So her Son saves her & is God, he just happened to save her at the very earliest point of her existence. Impossible for God to do??? Well, NOTHING is impossible for GOD 😃

She is a Virgin See the “Shepherd of Hermes”, no could be the Protoevangelium of James - the Midwife said she was a virgin after giving birth.

Mary is the New Testament GEBIRAH, or the “QUEEN MOTHER” . See OT King had 200+ concubines & wives etc. but the real POWER BEHIND THE THRONE is the GEBIRAH, where the King bows to HER!

Yes, Mary, the NT Queen Mother, receives our prayers & hands them over to her son. She is usually depicted in art as always looking at Jesus when He is with her → point is to keep your eyes on JESUS. Or she is looking down which = HUMILITY. Her last recorded words in the Bible are “Do what HE tells you”!

But as he was then the PERFECT SON of MARY, he did what his MOTHER ASKED HIM & still does what she asks Him. Jesus listens to Mary then & now. Remember too, he has her DNA alone. Mary is the most unique human in history: The God/Man is her Son which is simply not ordinary and pedestrian; she is the only sinless woman. God wouldn’t have it any other way. For the God/Man to be born to a sinful woman is ugly & insulting. It’s like taking a filthy, dirty rag and wrapping the newborn Saviour in it: a repulsive thought indeed.

Mary is NOT DIVINE & did not need to be to be the God/Man’s Mother. MY daughter has a soul that is supernatural & from God but I am the mother of my daughter who is human and has a eternal soul = a complete person. So Mary is Mother of a complete Human Being who is Divine at the same time = big point here: Mary did not have to BE GOD to give birth to the GOD/MAN any more than I have to be God to give birth to a human child with an eternal soul.

“ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED” - if your denomination doesn’t say that, they are not part of her PROPHECY; WHY NOT? How many generations of believers does “ALL” include? Who, what religious group, throughout all the centuries since the inception of Christianity has consistently fulfilled that prophecy AND been there through out time to fulfill it???

Thanks to Tim Staples for outstanding teaching on this subject.
 
Pepband_Mom said:
Interesting set of cd’s on the subject by Tim Staples “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed”.

Eve (see Early Church Fathers) ties the knot of disobedience, the 1st Eve.
Mary, the 2nd Eve, unties the knot of disobedience

God has the ultimate sense of humor!

Eva in Latin reverses to “AVE” which means “HAIL” or “KAIRE, Kecharitomene” as in “Hail, Full of Grace” = the only time in scripture where a WOMAN is ADDRESSED as a King or Governor. Gabriel is depicted in art as to always kneeling to her, his superior. Gabriel doesn’t say “Mary, Full of Grace” doesn’t he, but she receives a most powerful “TITLE CHANGE” similar to name changes Abram/Abraham, Sarai/Sarah, Simon/Peter.

Kecharitomene - full of grace continually, can’t take on any more grace
vs.
St. Stephen the Martyr’s Pleres Charitas = only full of grace at the time of his stoning, a short duration.

Mary was full of grace from the moment of her existence; if she is full, she’s full folks, cannot take anymore grace. She was preserved from sin, hence “the Immaculate Conception” but admits to being saved in the Magnificat “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” So her Son saves her & is God, he just happened to save her at the very earliest point of her existence. Impossible for God to do??? Well, NOTHING is impossible for GOD 😃

She is a Virgin See the “Shepherd of Hermes”, no could be the Protoevangelium of James - the Midwife said she was a virgin after giving birth.

Mary is the New Testament GEBIRAH, or the “QUEEN MOTHER” . See OT King had 200+ concubines & wives etc. but the real POWER BEHIND THE THRONE is the GEBIRAH, where the King bows to HER!

Yes, Mary, the NT Queen Mother, receives our prayers & hands them over to her son. She is usually depicted in art as always looking at Jesus when He is with her → point is to keep your eyes on JESUS. Or she is looking down which = HUMILITY. Her last recorded words in the Bible are “Do what HE tells you”!

But as he was then the PERFECT SON of MARY, he did what his MOTHER ASKED HIM & still does what she asks Him. Jesus listens to Mary then & now. Remember too, he has her DNA alone. Mary is the most unique human in history: The God/Man is her Son which is simply not ordinary and pedestrian; she is the only sinless woman. God wouldn’t have it any other way. For the God/Man to be born to a sinful woman is ugly & insulting. It’s like taking a filthy, dirty rag and wrapping the newborn Saviour in it: a repulsive thought indeed.

Mary is NOT DIVINE & did not need to be to be the God/Man’s Mother. MY daughter has a soul that is supernatural & from God but I am the mother of my daughter who is human and has a eternal soul = a complete person. So Mary is Mother of a complete Human Being who is Divine at the same time = big point here: Mary did not have to BE GOD to give birth to the GOD/MAN any more than I have to be God to give birth to a human child with an eternal soul.

“ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED” - if your denomination doesn’t say that, they are not part of her PROPHECY; WHY NOT? How many generations of believers does “ALL” include? Who, what religious group, throughout all the centuries since the inception of Christianity has consistently fulfilled that prophecy AND been there through out time to fulfill it???

Thanks to Tim Staples for outstanding teaching on this subject.
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Well said.

Anyway, the intercession part that apparently “some protestants” do not get is Biblical. So why would this be the question.

Thus since after we already deduced “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed” I’m pretty sure in our sola-scriptura reading that verse is pretty easy to comprehend. Its didn’t say some, it didn’t say stop in the 16th century. it said “ALL”.

Peace and Grace.
 
Pepband_Mom said:
Interesting set of cd’s on the subject by Tim Staples “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed”.

Eve (see Early Church Fathers) ties the knot of disobedience, the 1st Eve.
Mary, the 2nd Eve, unties the knot of disobedience

God has the ultimate sense of humor!

Eva in Latin reverses to “AVE” which means “HAIL” or “KAIRE, Kecharitomene” as in “Hail, Full of Grace” = the only time in scripture where a WOMAN is ADDRESSED as a King or Governor. Gabriel is depicted in art as to always kneeling to her, his superior. Gabriel doesn’t say “Mary, Full of Grace” doesn’t he, but she receives a most powerful “TITLE CHANGE” similar to name changes Abram/Abraham, Sarai/Sarah, Simon/Peter.

Kecharitomene - full of grace continually, can’t take on any more grace
vs.
St. Stephen the Martyr’s Pleres Charitas = only full of grace at the time of his stoning, a short duration.

Mary was full of grace from the moment of her existence; if she is full, she’s full folks, cannot take anymore grace. She was preserved from sin, hence “the Immaculate Conception” but admits to being saved in the Magnificat “my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” So her Son saves her & is God, he just happened to save her at the very earliest point of her existence. Impossible for God to do??? Well, NOTHING is impossible for GOD 😃

She is a Virgin See the “Shepherd of Hermes”, no could be the Protoevangelium of James - the Midwife said she was a virgin after giving birth.

Mary is the New Testament GEBIRAH, or the “QUEEN MOTHER” . See OT King had 200+ concubines & wives etc. but the real POWER BEHIND THE THRONE is the GEBIRAH, where the King bows to HER!

Yes, Mary, the NT Queen Mother, receives our prayers & hands them over to her son. She is usually depicted in art as always looking at Jesus when He is with her → point is to keep your eyes on JESUS. Or she is looking down which = HUMILITY. Her last recorded words in the Bible are “Do what HE tells you”!

But as he was then the PERFECT SON of MARY, he did what his MOTHER ASKED HIM & still does what she asks Him. Jesus listens to Mary then & now. Remember too, he has her DNA alone. Mary is the most unique human in history: The God/Man is her Son which is simply not ordinary and pedestrian; she is the only sinless woman. God wouldn’t have it any other way. For the God/Man to be born to a sinful woman is ugly & insulting. It’s like taking a filthy, dirty rag and wrapping the newborn Saviour in it: a repulsive thought indeed.

Mary is NOT DIVINE & did not need to be to be the God/Man’s Mother. MY daughter has a soul that is supernatural & from God but I am the mother of my daughter who is human and has a eternal soul = a complete person. So Mary is Mother of a complete Human Being who is Divine at the same time = big point here: Mary did not have to BE GOD to give birth to the GOD/MAN any more than I have to be God to give birth to a human child with an eternal soul.

“ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED” - if your denomination doesn’t say that, they are not part of her PROPHECY; WHY NOT? How many generations of believers does “ALL” include? Who, what religious group, throughout all the centuries since the inception of Christianity has consistently fulfilled that prophecy AND been there through out time to fulfill it???

Thanks to Tim Staples for outstanding teaching on this subject.
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That’s just beautiful! I second the thanks to Tim Staples 👍

All Generations shall be call me Blessed, has no time limit. That’s why most many Protestant denoms avoid mentioning that part. Anyone is free to correct me on that. 😃

MJ
 
stewstew03 said:
Well, here is a quote from Matt Slick explaining that Catholics created false doctrine based on a bad translation of kexaritomena:

The short version: kexaritomena doesn’t mean “full of grace” and therefore Catholic doctrine is erroneous.

My point: even translating it as “highly favored” doesn’t change that Mary was without sin.

Question: can the Mother of God at any point oppose her own Son? Can Jesus and Mary be rivals?
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And who is Matt Slick, and why should we care what he has to say. So far as I’m concerned, he is some zealot that decided to create some sort of institution and call himself an authority.

My dear Catholic brother, you must always remember that we protestants don’t have a magisterium. Quoting some crackpot, zealot, or money grubbing televangelist does not effective argumentation make.
 
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