Protestants, just what did the early Church look like?

[Mickey]

T. More:

Mickey: Isn’t that a defense of why the Church may offer only one species to the laity? The Roman Church made it illegal per ecclesiastical law at some point to offer both (as the same article says). I am wondering if and when that changed to be optional. VII?

Hi T

As a Byzantine Catholic, both species have always been offered. (same with Orthodox). However, I will defend Roman Catholicism. In the Holy Eucharist, we receive the living body of our Lord, and a living body cannot exist without blood, nor can living blood exist without a body. Therefore, either species, is valid as both.

 

[Church_Militant]

Mickey:

Hi T

As a Byzantine Catholic, both species have always been offered. (same with Orthodox). However, I will defend Roman Catholicism. In the Holy Eucharist, we receive the living body of our Lord, and a living body cannot exist without blood, nor can living blood exist without a body. Therefore, either species, is valid as both.

This is correct Catholic teaching.

 

[Angainor]

dennisknapp:

Dear Protestants,

So, just what does the early Church look like to you?

Well, the Epistles give us an idea of what the very early Church looked like.

It seems to me that there were scattered churches in different cities: Corinth, Thessalonica, Philippi, etc. These early churches seem to be pretty much on their own, self-governing actually. There certainly didn’t seem to be a priestly class, those authorized by the central authority to administer sacraments. Paul and other apostles visited them and sent letters for the purposes of encouragement and to teach. The letters were written to all the people of the church. Paul was not writing to the priests to tell them how things must be done. He wrote to the people to tell them how things should be done.

How close am I? To tell the truth, I haven’t really studied the very early church.

 

[philipmarus]

T. More:

Dennis:

There are many aspects we could address, church government, worship, doctrine, etc. Since you did not ask for anything in particular, I will address worship. I would point to Justin Martyr’s Apology, written about 150 AD. The description is very similar to a typical Protestant service. Absent from it is the ornate liturgy that we see in Catholic Churches (which, granted, took a long time to develop). We also see the primary emphasis on reading and teaching of the word. While catholic liturgy is saturated with scripture, actual homiletic teaching is often minimized in many Catholic Churches (thought it does not have to be). Further scripture in liturgy has a different emphasis than scripture reading described by Justin.

It is only by giving part of Justin Martyr Quote that you can justify these assertions. I put the original Protetstant quote in red which only by being read in Isolation can one wrongly conclude he was describing a Protestant like service. The paragraph directly before your quote Justin Martyr clearly teaches the REAL PRESENCE.

CHAPTER LXVI – OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII – WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS. And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

 

[Timothy888]

dennisknapp:

Dear Protestants,

I have been on this site for awhile and have tried to engage many of you on the issues regarding the early Church and history.

It has been my attempt to try and gain an understanding of the early Church from informed Protestants on this forum.

So, just what does the early Church look like to you?

What are your opinions about what was believed by the early Christians?

Peace

Ok i’ll not give you links on this one, some good ones are given, i’ll talk about it the way i see it.
Christ came and taught the disciples- later apostles, though Judas sold out, so Jesus chose Paul (Saul) to take this vacancy.
The early (i mean here really early) church was taught by the Apostles, they never recieved money for what they did, just whatever the people could afford, usually food and a roof to cover their heads, they were instructed to never take money with them.
So they never did, they were not afraid the church would die, so they were not political, they followed no political norm and were hated for it, their kingdom is the kingdom of heaven, even when they died for this, they were not affraid to tell the dictator where they stood.
They taught and sent out many people, some of whom corrupted their teachings, among them people John sent out. No names are mentioned, still they made themselves manifest, so they struck out in a big way for themselves.
Christians don’t make themselves manifest, they avoid it, they make Jesus manifest, many have been martyred over the years for this, because of the people who broke off from the teachings of John. Yet it was supposed to be, because they were sent by John, only pity the people and organization that did it.
In this church there were many Bishops and none had power over another, everyone could use the gifts of the Spirit, lay people didn’t exist, they couldn’t, because the Spirit sent by Jesus and our Father teaches each one as much as he/she needs to do Gods work according to his/her calling.
Celibacy was not the norm, it was a sin unless you were old or widowed, or called by God to be so. Marrying Jesus Christ our Lord was out of the question because the Church is the only bride of Christ.Sorry nuns and monks.
Even then to swear a thing to God or by God was frowned on.
The church then had people who wanted to rule it over all Christians, they were chastised, as would i be if i wanted to, which thank God i don’t!
In principle the church looked after it’s people, meaning Christians, and their familys.
Peter seemed to be chief Bishop, yet never took the role having known how weak he was, nobody did until the heretics took over, apparently not knowing how weak they were.
Doing what Jesus wanted, as the old Testament said and as the apostles taught, with correction, when needed! This was the only way. People like Saul and many since were taught directly by Jesus through the Spirit, he could then chastise Peter, though only with him a short time.
Today we are lucky to be able to read what they taught and how they were taught, with the Spirit to guide us, it’s never been so good.
Of course this didn’t make the ones who broke away from the Church happy, they wanted power over all Christians, though they were a heresy, still, Gods’ will be done.
As today, the Christian Church should be of one mind(and isn’t) about Jesus, so it was then, so one had to remember Christ and Him crucified to deal with them.
I could write many quotes to support this, but i haven’t, i want someone to come at me with quotes that deny anything said on this page.
Oh well i’m asking for it!

May the blessings of our Lord Jesus Christ flow to you.

 

[RoBo_Hobo]

I would like to briefly state what the early church was like for my methodist branch, small buildings, smaller population, mainly controlled by John Wesly alone…

 

[Timothy888]

philipmarus:

It is only by giving part of Justin Martyr Quote that you can justify these assertions. I put the original Protetstant quote in red which only by being read in Isolation can one wrongly conclude he was describing a Protestant like service. The paragraph directly before your quote Justin Martyr clearly teaches the REAL PRESENCE.

CHAPTER LXVI – OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII – WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS. And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

I’d nearly be willing to put bets that “by transmutation” was added later, this of course is assuming Justin was a follower of Jesus Christ our Lord , not just a Martyr for his own cause, because the Bible has nothing to say on this, only the Roman Church, and they adopted Justin!

 

[Milliardo]

Timothy888:

I’d nearly be willing to put bets that “by transmutation” was added later, this of course is assuming Justin was a follower of Jesus Christ our Lord , not just a Martyr for his own cause, because the Bible has nothing to say on this, only the Roman Church, and they adopted Justin!

Ttypical Protestant reaction. Where’s your proof it was only added later? All talk and nothing else. When it clearly goes against Protestant notion, the only Protestant reaction is that it was somehow “added” or “changed” to justify their notion. Of course, without any proof in it, and the Protestant will take pains to “show” it, or else deny the Church Fathers, much like the Gnostic heretics denied the Apostles and stated all they need is knowledge and Scripture. Isn’t Protestantism simply the rehashing of the old heresies?

 

[Milliardo]

Timothy888:

Celibacy was not the norm, it was a sin unless you were old or widowed, or called by God to be so. Marrying Jesus Christ our Lord was out of the question because the Church is the only bride of Christ.Sorry nuns and monks.

Uh huh. And Paul himself wasn’t married; neither was Jesus (unless you’re one of those Dan Brown fanatics who wave his books and say there’s “proof” of Him married). The Apostles left family and home to follow Him. Sorry. No go there for you.

 

[dennisknapp]

Timothy888:

Ok i’ll not give you links on this one, some good ones are given, i’ll talk about it the way i see it.
Christ came and taught the disciples- later apostles, though Judas sold out, so Jesus chose Paul (Saul) to take this vacancy.
The early (i mean here really early) church was taught by the Apostles, they never recieved money for what they did, just whatever the people could afford, usually food and a roof to cover their heads, they were instructed to never take money with them.
So they never did, they were not afraid the church would die, so they were not political, they followed no political norm and were hated for it, their kingdom is the kingdom of heaven, even when they died for this, they were not affraid to tell the dictator where they stood.
They taught and sent out many people, some of whom corrupted their teachings, among them people John sent out. No names are mentioned, still they made themselves manifest, so they struck out in a big way for themselves.
Christians don’t make themselves manifest, they avoid it, they make Jesus manifest, many have been martyred over the years for this, because of the people who broke off from the teachings of John. Yet it was supposed to be, because they were sent by John, only pity the people and organization that did it.
In this church there were many Bishops and none had power over another, everyone could use the gifts of the Spirit, lay people didn’t exist, they couldn’t, because the Spirit sent by Jesus and our Father teaches each one as much as he/she needs to do Gods work according to his/her calling.
Celibacy was not the norm, it was a sin unless you were old or widowed, or called by God to be so. Marrying Jesus Christ our Lord was out of the question because the Church is the only bride of Christ.Sorry nuns and monks.
Even then to swear a thing to God or by God was frowned on.
The church then had people who wanted to rule it over all Christians, they were chastised, as would i be if i wanted to, which thank God i don’t!
In principle the church looked after it’s people, meaning Christians, and their familys.
Peter seemed to be chief Bishop, yet never took the role having known how weak he was, nobody did until the heretics took over, apparently not knowing how weak they were.
Doing what Jesus wanted, as the old Testament said and as the apostles taught, with correction, when needed! This was the only way. People like Saul and many since were taught directly by Jesus through the Spirit, he could then chastise Peter, though only with him a short time.
Today we are lucky to be able to read what they taught and how they were taught, with the Spirit to guide us, it’s never been so good.
Of course this didn’t make the ones who broke away from the Church happy, they wanted power over all Christians, though they were a heresy, still, Gods’ will be done.
As today, the Christian Church should be of one mind(and isn’t) about Jesus, so it was then, so one had to remember Christ and Him crucified to deal with them.
I could write many quotes to support this, but i haven’t, i want someone to come at me with quotes that deny anything said on this page.
Oh well i’m asking for it!

May the blessings of our Lord Jesus Christ flow to you.

Here is a link from the host website.

It is in topical form and quotes the Early Christians and what they believed. It is through reading the Early Christians and studying Church history that I became a Roman Catholic.

Fathers Know Best

catholic.com/library/fathers_know_best.asp

Peace

 

[mercygate]

Timothy888:

Christ came and taught the disciples- later apostles, though Judas sold out, so Jesus chose Paul (Saul) to take this vacancy.

Timothy, I must firmly but gently direct your attention to the first chapter of the *Acts of the Apostles, *verses 15-26:

In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it'; and His office let another take.’ So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us – one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.