Protestants lacks the respect of Christian history compared to Eastern Orthodox and Catholics.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mannyfit75
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Mannyfit75

Guest
I noticed that most Protestants ((NOT ALL)) lack any respect towards Christian history than Eastern Orthodox and Catholics. While the two ancient Christian Churches honor and preserved Christian history by the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, and Early Church Fathers, Protestants, reject them. It seem to me that Protestants are afraid of history.

When do they investigate history to end up either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Does anyone noticed this as well?
 
Hm! I’m not sure that Protestants don’t respect history. I rather think they divide into two groups. Here is my understanding based on my knowledge of Protestantism.
Code:
Evangelicals, including Pentecostalists, believe that the early church was simpler, without all the ceremonialism, vestments, liturgies, etc. They would argue that many rituals etc came into early Christianity from pagan cults popular at the time - the cult of Isis, of Mithra, etc. They also feel that many of the customs of ancient Greece and Rome impacted Christianity, that the various robes, for example, are holdovers from garb at the time. Or, take celibacy. They would suggest that this certainly didn't come from Judaism, where marriage and children were just about imperative, but from some mystery religions where sex was seen as sinful, where the carnal was considered an enemy of the spiritual - influenced perhaps by Platonism etc. 

  More liberal Protestants would tend to argue that the church shouldn't be burdened by ancient history, that just as the early USA brought a new form of government into the world, overthrowing monarchy, so Christianity should not be influenced too much by what was practiced or written in those times before the telescope and the microscope. That's why Galileo was condemned, for example. Or consider Aquinas. He said that heresy was worse than murder, and heretics should be turned over to the civil authorities to be executed. Is this a teaching from a revered church theologian that we should honor? I don't think so.

  Protestant seminaries normally have students read most of then ancient fathers, like Origen, Irenaeus, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Augustine of course, and others. And their writings are valued. But they do not occupy the same place among Protestants as among Catholics. 

  As for church history itself, it is full of wonderful events, true, but it also is full of actions (religious wars, crusades, heresy hunts, inquisition, bad popes, etc) that should make us all blush. Such travesties have given rise to recent books by Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc. whose united theme has been that religion is the cause of much of the evils of history - and today.
 
Hm! I’m not sure that Protestants don’t respect history. I rather think they divide into two groups. Here is my understanding based on my knowledge of Protestantism.

Evangelicals, including Pentecostalists, believe that the early church was simpler, without all the ceremonialism, vestments, liturgies, etc. They would argue that many rituals etc came into early Christianity from pagan cults popular at the time - the cult of Isis, of Mithra, etc. They also feel that many of the customs of ancient Greece and Rome impacted Christianity, that the various robes, for example, are holdovers from garb at the time. Or, take celibacy. They would suggest that this certainly didn’t come from Judaism, where marriage and children were just about imperative, but from some mystery religions where sex was seen as sinful, where the carnal was considered an enemy of the spiritual - influenced perhaps by Platonism etc.
When heresies arise and threaten the divinity of Jesus Christ. Certain Greek philosphily were added into Christianity.

The other thing is that from the Early Church Fathers, they saw that the Liturgical Worship on Sundays view the Eucharist as an eucharistic sacrifice.
More liberal Protestants would tend to argue that the church shouldn’t be burdened by ancient history, that just as the early USA brought a new form of government into the world, overthrowing monarchy, so Christianity should not be influenced too much by what was practiced or written in those times before the telescope and the microscope. That’s why Galileo was condemned, for example. Or consider Aquinas. He said that heresy was worse than murder, and heretics should be turned over to the civil authorities to be executed. Is this a teaching from a revered church theologian that we should honor? I don’t think so
The essential beliefs of the ECF remain consist in Eastern Orthodox and Catholicism, such as Real Presence, Apostolic Succession, etc.
Protestant seminaries normally have students read most of then ancient fathers, like Origen, Irenaeus, St. Clement of Alexandria, St. Augustine of course, and others. And their writings are valued. But they do not occupy the same place among Protestants as among Catholics.
Code:
  As for church history itself, it is full of wonderful events, true, but it also is full of actions (religious wars, crusades, heresy hunts, inquisition, bad popes, etc) that should make us all blush. Such travesties have given rise to recent books by Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc. whose united theme has been that religion is the cause of much of the evils of history - and today.
I think they also realized that the ECF had a belief in One, Holy Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Sin causes bad Popes yet the Church remain obedient to their teachings by preserving the Deposit of Faith.
 
yeah a lot of protestants only care what they read in the bible.
 
<<When do they investigate history to end up either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Does anyone noticed this as well?>>

Some 20-25 years ago, an Orthodox deacon with a PhD (or ThD) was hired to teach Church History at Oral Roberts University.

He did not proselytize. He simply taught church history–ALL of it.

Over 30 of his students converted to Orthodoxy and he was fired.
 
Many evangelical posters in several forums do not know the earliest church fathers well. While I have seen in evangelical libraries books by the Early Church Fathers, they often skip over the early ones like ST Ignacius of Antiochy and St Justin Martyr.
So when they read them for the first time they are often surprised.
Look, they might disagree on their authority as protestants, but calling Orthodox or Catholics apostates after a good read of the ECF, specially the early ones is them a act of lying in bad faith.
So I think many evangelicals are really ignorant about them.
 
Most Protestants do not care about the history of the Church or the teachings of the early church fathers. Most protestants believe they are much more smarter then our early church fathers, even the ones who were taught directly by the apostles themselves.
 
i would say there is a bit of generalizing going on in this thread. i am a protestant. i have a deep respect (and good knowledge) of early church history as well as the writings of the ECF. i would say that because of my studies, i have come to the conclusion that the catholic church has many beliefs that i once thought were not true and have found they are. the problem is that not all of the claims of the catholic church can be found in history. i’m not saying i need them all to be found there or in scripture, i am just saying that i remain protestant even though i have a good knowledge of history. there are many others out there like me. most of them are very high church.
 
I echo that sentiment. In my own estimation I am fairly well read on early church history and the development of those churches which came to be called Orthodox and Catholic. I think I have a decent grasp of the “mythology” that was developed in those first centuries to ensconce ‘apostolic authority’ as the driving force of the emerging catholic/orthodox church.

Many “Protestants” are aware of church history…most of us from a more…“liberal” stance simply don’t embrace the “mythology”.

This is not a “challenge” but simply an explanation.
 
I echo that sentiment. In my own estimation I am fairly well read on early church history and the development of those churches which came to be called Orthodox and Catholic. I think I have a decent grasp of the “mythology” that was developed in those first centuries to ensconce ‘apostolic authority’ as the driving force of the emerging catholic/orthodox church.

Many “Protestants” are aware of church history…most of us from a more…“liberal” stance simply don’t embrace the “mythology”.

This is not a “challenge” but simply an explanation.
The odd thing though is that none of these ECF writings aren’t myths, they are fact. You can’t prove that they are myths as you assumed them to be. They just can’t grasp their Christian heritage or history. I do adhere Protestants who look at Christian history and see how One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic the Church was established by Jesus Christ.

I know some modern scholars today now question if the person who wrote the Book of Revelation is John the Evangelist. Catholic tradition holds that the writer of Revelation is John, the Beloved disciple of Jesus Christ. I do noticed Protestants do take a liberal stance which is odd.
 
The odd thing though is that none of these ECF writings aren’t myths, they are fact. You can’t prove that they are myths as you assumed them to be. They just can’t grasp their Christian heritage or history. I do adhere Protestants who look at Christian history and see how One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic the Church was established by Jesus Christ.

I know some modern scholars today now question if the person who wrote the Book of Revelation is John the Evangelist. Catholic tradition holds that the writer of Revelation is John, the Beloved disciple of Jesus Christ. I do noticed Protestants do take a liberal stance which is odd.
I didn’t say the ECF were “myth”, I said that the need to develop a “mythology” of apostolic sucession against the “heresies” is one of the driving forces behind the emerging orthodox/catholic church in the first centuries CE.

The gospels, pastoral letters, letters of “John” and Revelation authorship is “tradition”. They did not sign their works.
 
Catholics and Orthodox read Church history and the Church Fathers and see the confirmation of their long-held beliefs. Catholics and Orthodox respect history because it offers a rational demonstration that certain claimed Christian truths have always been believed in the Church.

From my perspective, it seems that Protestants fall into categories: 1) those who simply ignore history, 2) those who use history show that Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy have both departed from the earliest expression of the Faith, or to show that throughout history there have been great disagreements amongst the so-called Fathers over doctrine.
 
For some of us, early church history was developed over time. The largest group of Christians who became known as “catholic/orthodox” opposed “heresies” they defined. Other Christians that were labeled “heretics” did not share their view of the Christian message.

I guess many Catholic/Orthodox would consider some of the more “modern” views as ‘revisionist’. Bart Erhman, Joan O’Grady, Eilene Pagels, Burton Mack and Hyam McJacoby (SP) to name a few come to mind most Catholic/Orthodox would call “revisionist”…to me, they offer a more consistant view of church history than the one set forth through “apostolic sucession”…

I guess that’s why I am not Orthodox/Catholic.
 
Originally Posted by Publisher:
I guess many Catholic/Orthodox would consider some of the more “modern” views as ‘revisionist’. Bart Erhman, Joan O’Grady, Eilene Pagels, Burton Mack and Hyam McJacoby (SP) to name a few come to mind most Catholic/Orthodox would call “revisionist”…to me, they offer a more consistant view of church history than the one set forth through “apostolic sucession”…
The funny thing is that these figures widely disagree as to church history.

I’ve also always found it odd that there is a “catholic/orthodox” side at all in the histories of these persons. Many of these authors, even if they hold to a dialectic by which “orthodox” Christianity is a synthesis of Jewish and Gentile elements, nonetheless identify the “orthodox” church with what they see as the same oppressive “orthodox” Church today (be it Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox).
 
The funny thing is that these figures widely disagree as to church history.

I’ve also always found it odd that there is a “catholic/orthodox” side at all in the histories of these persons. Many of these authors, even if they hold to a dialectic by which “orthodox” Christianity is a synthesis of Jewish and Gentile elements, nonetheless identify the “orthodox” church with what they see as the same oppressive “orthodox” Church today (be it Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox).
While many of them disagree on some issues, they do find some agreement as to the “how’s and wherefore’s” of church development.

I think they probably disagree about as much as the various takes that the Orthodox and Catholics have about their respective histories…they agree up to a point then “diverge” into their own roads.

I am not trying to challenge your beliefs…just show there are other ways at looking at the “evidence” and coming to different conclusions. I don’t expect to change your mind, just explain where I am at in my thinking…“heretical” though my thinking may be in your eyes.
 
I didn’t say the ECF were “myth”, I said that the need to develop a “mythology” of apostolic sucession against the “heresies” is one of the driving forces behind the emerging orthodox/catholic church in the first centuries CE.

The gospels, pastoral letters, letters of “John” and Revelation authorship is “tradition”. They did not sign their works.
There is no mythology of Apostolic Succession. The proof is there Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. I don’t know how you come up with the conclusion that Apostolic Succession is a myth. The authority of our bishops came from Apostles themselves, and the Apostles received it from Jesus Christ, and Jesus received his authority from God, the Father.

That does sound like a succession to me. After Peter, was Linus, after Linus Anacletus, after Anacletus, was Clement of Rome, and so on… a myth… Hardly, my friend.
 
There is no mythology of Apostolic Succession. The proof is there Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. I don’t know how you come up with the conclusion that Apostolic Succession is a myth. The authority of our bishops came from Apostles themselves, and the Apostles received it from Jesus Christ, and Jesus received his authority from God, the Father.

That does sound like a succession to me. After Peter, was Linus, after Linus Anacletus, after Anacletus, was Clement of Rome, and so on… a myth… Hardly, my friend.
What about all the conflicting lists? I think they are just conjecture personally. Oh, and I know more about history than most Catholics I meet.
Respectfully speaking
 
What about all the conflicting lists? I think they are just conjecture personally. Oh, and I know more about history than most Catholics I meet.
Respectfully speaking
Conflicting lists? Which list the Canon of Scripture? This itself would be a another topic of itself.

From the Orthodox prospective, Rome break with their communion with the 4 Patriarchiates, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem in 1054 AD. While Catholics affirm that Orthodox break from Bishop of Rome in 1054.

Though I think the Orthodox got it right. The Roman Legate execommunicated Patriarch of Constantinople.

Differences come to a head as Cardinal Humbertus, Papal legate of Leo IX excommunicates Patriarch Michael Cerularius and all his communicates (something he does without Papal approval, since Pope Leo had died shortly before. The Patriarch, in turn, excommunicates Humbertus and his fellow Papal delegates.

There were attempts at unifying the Churches in Council of Lyons II, then SIXTH SCHISM: Temporary reunion is destroyed when Pope Martin IV excommunicates Emperor Michael VIII Palaeologos.

SIXTH SCHISM HEALED as Emperor John VIII Palaeologos travels to Italy with all four Eastern Patriarchs and submits to Pope Eugene VI. The Act of Union is drafted by the Council of Ferrara-Florence. The East accepts the “Filioque clause” in the form: “From the Father through the Son,” as well as the other Western doctrines approved at Lyons II. Other Eastern churches, such as the Armenians, Jacobites, and some Nestorian bodies re-enter into communion with Rome. This is the beginning of the Eastern Catholic Uniates, which also include Copts, Ethiopians, Maronites, Melchites, Syrians, and Syro-Malankars.

SEVENTH SCHISM: The Greek bishops nullify the Ferrara-Florence Act of Union at a synod in Constantinople.Coincidentally (?), in the same year, Grand Duke Ivan III of Moscow marries Zoe Sophia, the niece of the last Byzantine Emperor. Moscow is now considered the “third Rome,” the successor to Constantinople, and the center of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. The prince of Moscow takes the title of Czar (“Caesar”).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top