Protestants listen up...part II

[Luke65]

I appologise for 2000 years of history that has been hidden from your eyes by our Christian forfathers.

Here’s a prophecy for you, Todd:

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies… Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.” (2 Peter 2:1-12 NIV)

And here is one of those Saints you slander with your broad brush:

“For if God is man’s chief good, which you cannot deny, it clearly follows, since to seek the chief good is to live well, that to live well is nothing else but to love God with all the heart, with all the soul, with all the mind; and, as arising from this, that this love must be preserved entire and incorrupt, which is the part of temperance; that it give way before no troubles, which is the part of fortitude; that it serve no other, which is the part of justice; that it be watchful in its inspection of things lest craft or fraud steal in, which is the part of prudence. This is the one perfection of man, by which alone he can succeed in attaining to the purity of truth. This both Testaments enjoin in concert; this is commended on both sides alike. Why do you continue to cast reproaches on Scriptures of which you are ignorant? Do you not see the folly of your attack upon books which only those who do not understand them find fault with, and which only those who find fault fail in understanding? For neither can an enemy know them, nor can one who knows them be other than a friend to them.” - St. Augustine (Of the Morals of the Catholic Church, 25)

 

[toddvetter]

I was dissapointed that no one had the courage to answer the most basic of all my questions and statments tonight.

Why do the 4 Roman gospels in My bible and yours break this testimony up to the point of confusion and this testimony is intact?

Lection LXXXIV
The Resurrection Of Jesus

1. NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared, and there were others with her. 2. And as they were going, they said among themselves, who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulcher? For it was great. And when they came to the place and looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away. 3. For behold there was a great earthquake; and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lighting and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men. 4. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. 5. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him; lo, I have told you. 6. And they entered in and found not the body of Jesus. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him. 7. And they ran and came to the sepulcher, and looking in, they saw the linen clothes lying, and the napkin that had been about his head not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped up in a place by itself. 8. And it came to pass as they were much perplexed, behold, two angels stood by them in glistening garments of white, and said unto them, why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, he is risen, and, behold; he goeth before you into Galilee, there shall we see him. 9. Remember ye not how he spake unto you, when he was yet in Galilee, that the Son of Man should be crucified and that he would rise again after the third day? And they remembered his words. And they went out quickly and fled from the sepulcher, for they trembled with amazement, and they were afraid. 10. NOW at the time of the earthquake, the graves were opened; and many of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the city and appeared unto many. 11. But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping, and as she wept she again stooped down, and looked into the sepulcher and saw two angels in white garments, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? 12. She saith unto them, because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 13. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus said unto her, Mary, She turned herself and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 14. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father One with my Mother, but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Parent and your Parent; to my God and your God. 15. And Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her, and commanded her to announce his resurrection from the dead.

thedeathandresurection.com

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Every knee will bow,ever tongue will confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord!:bowdown2:
Lord thank you for removing the scales from my eyes, now I ask that you remove them from Todds, this I pray in Jesus name. Amen

 

[toddvetter]

Here’s a prophecy for you, Todd:

“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies… Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.” (2 Peter 2:1-12 NIV)

And here is one of those Saints you slander with your broad brush:

“For if God is man’s chief good, which you cannot deny, it clearly follows, since to seek the chief good is to live well, that to live well is nothing else but to love God with all the heart, with all the soul, with all the mind; and, as arising from this, that this love must be preserved entire and incorrupt, which is the part of temperance; that it give way before no troubles, which is the part of fortitude; that it serve no other, which is the part of justice; that it be watchful in its inspection of things lest craft or fraud steal in, which is the part of prudence. This is the one perfection of man, by which alone he can succeed in attaining to the purity of truth. This both Testaments enjoin in concert; this is commended on both sides alike. Why do you continue to cast reproaches on Scriptures of which you are ignorant? Do you not see the folly of your attack upon books which only those who do not understand them find fault with, and which only those who find fault fail in understanding? For neither can an enemy know them, nor can one who knows them be other than a friend to them.” - St. Augustine (Of the Morals of the Catholic Church, 25)

The false prophets are anyone living today professing the name of christ and baring false witness.

Did i bare false witness with any of my statements tonight?

What evidence can you offer to state I have bore false witness in any of the information I have shared tonight? I am accused of False witness yet no evidence is provided only hatered for my words which i share freely with you out of love for all mankind.

I remember this happend to our Lord in the past as well… Praise God

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I was dissapointed that no one had the courage to answer the most basic of all my questions and statments tonight.

I was disappointed that you felt it necessary to stick to your personal agenda and go so far off topic of this discussion. Speaking of courage, are you afraid to state your religious affliation for some reason?

Why do the 4 Roman gospels in My bible and yours break this testimony up to the point of confusion and this testimony is intact?

Just a wild guess here…because you privately interpreted the scriptures to fit them to your theology? You really should try to fit your theology to scriptures.

 

[jam070406]

I was dissapointed that no one had the courage to answer the most basic of all my questions and statments tonight]

I can’t even follow you. It’s so bizarre and incoherent. :hypno:

 

[toddvetter]

I was disappointed that you felt it necessary to stick to your personal agenda and go so far off topic of this discussion. Speaking of courage, are you afraid to state your religious affliation for some reason?

Just a wild guess here…because you privately interpreted the scriptures to fit them to your theology? You really should try to fit your theology to scriptures.

You should try checking references to know that where that testimony came from was translated and recorded before both you an I were born according to the Flesh.

I wish i could take credit for it but it was recorded prior to the 4 cannonized gospels we have today … the evidence in the study sent to you verified that… but your arrogance to accuse me of attacking your faith has not allowed you to see this.

This is not an attack… just information sharing which is what this is supposed to be all about.

Again I am sorry if the history of our forfathers has offended you.

God Bless.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You should try checking references to know that where that testimony came from was translated and recorded before both you an I were born according to the Flesh.

I wish i could take credit for it but it was recorded prior to the 4 cannonized gospels we have today … the evidence in the study sent to you verified that… but your arrogance to accuse me of attacking your faith has not allowed you to see this.

This is not an attack… just information sharing which is what this is supposed to be all about.

Again I am sorry if the history of our forfathers has offended you.

God Bless.

Your refusal to answer a simple question, derailing the topic of this thread and private interpretations is offensive. But, as I said, I will pray for you.

 

[toddvetter]

I can’t even follow you. It’s so bizarre and incoherent. :hypno:

one more time then with clarity. In the 4 Roman gospels we have today in my bible and in your bible, there are 4 testimonies for the resurrection. each giving partial details for the resurrection event. The below testimony has every relevant word, but in a correct chronological order to present a clear testimony of what occured. The 4 roman Gospels leave us confused as to who reached the tomb first and how many angels were actually present.

Basiclly the Roman gospels cause us to pick or choose man’s testimony to defend our personal perception of what happend and in turn they cause us to ignore scripture (testimony of Jesus).

Below we see a clear story of what happend. The simple question is this.

Why are the 4 Roman gospels divided and confusing on this chapter when this testimony is clear?

The evidence has been provided to illustrate this testimony predates the Roman cannonized 4 gospels. You just have to check the information provided at the link at the end of this message.

Lection LXXXIV
The Resurrection Of Jesus

1. NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared, and there were others with her. 2. And as they were going, they said among themselves, who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulcher? For it was great. And when they came to the place and looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away. 3. For behold there was a great earthquake; and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lighting and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men. 4. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. 5. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him; lo, I have told you. 6. And they entered in and found not the body of Jesus. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him. 7. And they ran and came to the sepulcher, and looking in, they saw the linen clothes lying, and the napkin that had been about his head not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped up in a place by itself. 8. And it came to pass as they were much perplexed, behold, two angels stood by them in glistening garments of white, and said unto them, why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, he is risen, and, behold; he goeth before you into Galilee, there shall we see him. 9. Remember ye not how he spake unto you, when he was yet in Galilee, that the Son of Man should be crucified and that he would rise again after the third day? And they remembered his words. And they went out quickly and fled from the sepulcher, for they trembled with amazement, and they were afraid. 10. NOW at the time of the earthquake, the graves were opened; and many of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the city and appeared unto many. 11. But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping, and as she wept she again stooped down, and looked into the sepulcher and saw two angels in white garments, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? 12. She saith unto them, because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 13. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus said unto her, Mary, She turned herself and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 14. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father One with my Mother, but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Parent and your Parent; to my God and your God. 15. And Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her, and commanded her to announce his resurrection from the dead.

Testimony verifying the validity of this testimonies ancient origens can be found at this link on page 26. The link to where I found it is on the same page.

thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/death%20and%20resurrection%20time%20line.pdf

 

[jam070406]

one more time then with clarity. In the 4 Roman gospels we have today in my bible and in your bible, there are 4 testimonies for the resurrection. each giving partial details for the resurrection event. The below testimony has every relevant word, but in a correct chronological order to present a clear testimony of what occured. The 4 roman Gospels leave us confused as to who reached the tomb first and how many angels were actually present.

Basiclly the Roman gospels cause us to pick or choose man’s testimony to defend our personal perception of what happend and in turn they cause us to ignore scripture (testimony of Jesus).

Below we see a clear story of what happend. The simple question is this.

Why are the 4 Roman gospels divided and confusing on this chapter when this testimony is clear?

The evidence has been provided to illustrate this testimony predates the Roman cannonized 4 gospels. You just have to check the information provided at the link at the end of this message.

Lection LXXXIV
The Resurrection Of Jesus

1. NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared, and there were others with her. 2. And as they were going, they said among themselves, who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulcher? For it was great. And when they came to the place and looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away. 3. For behold there was a great earthquake; and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lighting and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men. 4. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. 5. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him; lo, I have told you. 6. And they entered in and found not the body of Jesus. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him. 7. And they ran and came to the sepulcher, and looking in, they saw the linen clothes lying, and the napkin that had been about his head not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped up in a place by itself. 8. And it came to pass as they were much perplexed, behold, two angels stood by them in glistening garments of white, and said unto them, why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, he is risen, and, behold; he goeth before you into Galilee, there shall we see him. 9. Remember ye not how he spake unto you, when he was yet in Galilee, that the Son of Man should be crucified and that he would rise again after the third day? And they remembered his words. And they went out quickly and fled from the sepulcher, for they trembled with amazement, and they were afraid. 10. NOW at the time of the earthquake, the graves were opened; and many of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the city and appeared unto many. 11. But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping, and as she wept she again stooped down, and looked into the sepulcher and saw two angels in white garments, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? 12. She saith unto them, because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 13. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus said unto her, Mary, She turned herself and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 14. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father One with my Mother, but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Parent and your Parent; to my God and your God. 15. And Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her, and commanded her to announce his resurrection from the dead.

Testimony verifying the validity of this testimonies ancient origens can be found at this link on page 26. The link to where I found it is on the same page.

thedeathandresurection.com/pdf/death%20and%20resurrection%20time%20line.pdf

I’m sorry, I’m way too tired right now. Have a good night.

 

[toddvetter]

Your refusal to answer a simple question, derailing the topic of this thread and private interpretations is offensive. But, as I said, I will pray for you.

What have i interpreted privately? I am sharing what history is revealing and history is speaking for it’s self in accordence with real time and basic reality and the many scriptures preserved by Rome in the bible as well and many verses of mans testiomony as they are preserved in the bible by Rome.

The other verses of Gospel text should be a blessing to all who receive them if they want to hear words Christ spoke 2000 years ago and are being revealed today to help us come out of Babylon.

Many of the prodastant denominations accuse Rome of being babylon… If they only knew that this is so wrong… babylon is a state of mind caused by the mixing of words… good seed and bad seed in the same field. It’s the seed Satan has sown in the night that creates babylon. the study sent to you illustrates what much of that bad seed is.

Why is this a problem to you? and why is history offensive?

 

[Luke65]

The false prophets are anyone living today professing the name of christ and baring false witness.

Did i bare false witness with any of my statements tonight?

What evidence can you offer to state I have bore false witness in any of the information I have shared tonight? I am accused of False witness yet no evidence is provided only hatered for my words which i share freely with you out of love for all mankind.

I remember this happend to our Lord in the past as well… Praise God

I already gave you the evidence. You slander many Christians, including Saints. You blaspheme in matters you do not understand…

Why are the 4 Roman gospels divided and confusing on this chapter when this testimony is clear?

“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.” (2 Corinthians 4:3)

And why are you perishing?

“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)

“Now a heretic is one who devises or follows false or new opinions. Therefore heresy is opposed to the truth, on which faith is founded; and consequently it is a species of unbelief.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

“Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” (John 6:64)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hi Prodigal, You do bring up very valid points.Although I think Todd was doing more to support your case. Without guidance I see the point that was made here tonight, people can get themselves in real trouble warping everything. I’m starting to understand why Jesus would leave a infallible Chair to keep the Christian Church in line. I do believe Martin Luther had some justifiable complaints,but I understand that does not give us the right to change all the teachings. That does make sense. I think Todd was actually a blessing in disguise, because this is one Christian that it showed we have to have order and guidance.Also shows what ever the devil tries to do, the Lord turns it around for his glory.:bowdown2:
Peace be with you

 

[racing59]

I was dissapointed that no one had the courage to answer the most basic of all my questions and statments tonight.

Why do the 4 Roman gospels in My bible and yours break this testimony up to the point of confusion and this testimony is intact?

Lection LXXXIV
The Resurrection Of Jesus

1. NOW after the Sabbath was ended and it began to dawn, on the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene to the sepulcher, bearing the spices which she had prepared, and there were others with her. 2. And as they were going, they said among themselves, who shall roll away the stone from the door of the sepulcher? For it was great. And when they came to the place and looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away. 3. For behold there was a great earthquake; and the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lighting and his raiment white as snow: And for fear of him the keepers did shake and became as dead men. 4. And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. 5. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him; lo, I have told you. 6. And they entered in and found not the body of Jesus. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter and the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and said unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him. 7. And they ran and came to the sepulcher, and looking in, they saw the linen clothes lying, and the napkin that had been about his head not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped up in a place by itself. 8. And it came to pass as they were much perplexed, behold, two angels stood by them in glistening garments of white, and said unto them, why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, he is risen, and, behold; he goeth before you into Galilee, there shall we see him. 9. Remember ye not how he spake unto you, when he was yet in Galilee, that the Son of Man should be crucified and that he would rise again after the third day? And they remembered his words. And they went out quickly and fled from the sepulcher, for they trembled with amazement, and they were afraid. 10. NOW at the time of the earthquake, the graves were opened; and many of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the city and appeared unto many. 11. But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping, and as she wept she again stooped down, and looked into the sepulcher and saw two angels in white garments, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? 12. She saith unto them, because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 13. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus said unto her, Mary, She turned herself and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 14. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father One with my Mother, but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Parent and your Parent; to my God and your God. 15. And Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her, and commanded her to announce his resurrection from the dead.

thedeathandresurection.com

Todd if you want true history might I suggest the writings of Josephus a Jewish historian.He backs up the Catholic Faith’s history. In fact Revelation is the most Catholic book of the Bible.If you want real truth in history read Josephus along with Revelation it is a real eye opener.That is if you are searching for full Christian Church history.
Lord Jesus you have removed the scales from my eye, now I ask that you remove the scales from Todd’s. This I pray in Jesus name. Amen.:bowdown2:

 

[1beleevr]

Not all of us non-catholics tell catholics that their interpretaion of scripture; but sometimes it seems that when someone says,"It’s in the Bible, and we search, and don’t find it, then what! Didn’t Paul tell us in Thessalonians to challenge everything? Not for the sake of argument or debate, but for clarification! On the previous thread, part 1, there were doubts expressed about whether the thief on the cross actually went to Heaven(eventually), and some said,“No way!” I am not for certain, that He did, but isn’t God capable of anything? And there was the issue of baptism Let me ask every Christian, and any non-Christians in this thread:“If Jesus is sinless; then why did He get baptized?” And was it full immersion in water? If baptism washes away sins, did He need it? I believe that because His entire existence was about obedience to the Father, His baptism was an act of obedience, and we, in our desire to be more like Him, should view baptism, as an act of obedience, as well as a requirement! I like to use this illustration to explain baptism to both believers, and non-believers: When we come to Christ(as non-believers) repent and admit to Him that we are sinners; ask for forgiveness, and accept the gift of salvation, along with Him as our personal Saviour, we are "crucified with Him. When we go under the water, we are buried, with Him, and when we come up out of the water, we are resurrected with Him, a new creation; our “old” man/woman, is dead(2Cor 5:17-18)

 

[racing59]

Not all of us non-catholics tell catholics that their interpretaion of scripture; but sometimes it seems that when someone says,"It’s in the Bible, and we search, and don’t find it, then what! Didn’t Paul tell us in Thessalonians to challenge everything? Not for the sake of argument or debate, but for clarification! On the previous thread, part 1, there were doubts expressed about whether the thief on the cross actually went to Heaven(eventually), and some said,“No way!” I am not for certain, that He did, but isn’t God capable of anything? And there was the issue of baptism Let me ask every Christian, and any non-Christians in this thread:“If Jesus is sinless; then why did He get baptized?” And was it full immersion in water? If baptism washes away sins, did He need it? I believe that because His entire existence was about obedience to the Father, His baptism was an act of obedience, and we, in our desire to be more like Him, should view baptism, as an act of obedience, as well as a requirement! I like to use this illustration to explain baptism to both believers, and non-believers: When we come to Christ(as non-believers) repent and admit to Him that we are sinners; ask for forgiveness, and accept the gift of salvation, along with Him as our personal Saviour, we are "crucified with Him. When we go under the water, we are buried, with Him, and when we come up out of the water, we are resurrected with Him, a new creation; our “old” man/woman, is dead(2Cor 5:17-18)

Hi beleever, you have a good heart in Jesus Christ. I explain to you the Catholic teaching on the 3 forms of Baptism,Water, blood, and intent. You are correct when we are baptized we are born a new creation, but then what, do you never sin after that? Do you fall again like Adam and Eve? That is why there is the need for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, because we do fall, no one is perfect. As far as the Thief on the cross I explain to you he went to the Bosom of Abraham(Paradise a third realm or aboded of the dead. Matt. 27;51-52 those that died before Jesus assention, broke forth from their tombs and then went to Heaven. This would apply to the Thief on the Cross.

 

[1beleevr]

racing59: Thank you for that reply! If I didn’t know better, I’dsay you were a catholic in non-catholic clothingLOL! Any way, as far as the thief is concerned, since neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, has proof of what happened to him after Christ promised him he would be in Heaven, we could only assume what we believe his fate to be! Some say, well, he wasn’t baptized, but Jesus did not give His disciples, and us, His commandment and commission until after His resurrection:thumbsup:And what about all those to whom He said,“Your sins are forgiven?” I still am having a hard time making confession and reconciliation mean the same thingBefore we were even thought of, God reconciled man back to Himself, through Christ’s completed work on the Cross! When we admitted that we were sinners, thanked Jesus for dying for our sins, and asked for forgiveness for said sins, we were allowed to be called co-heirs with Christ, children of God, allowed to enter the throneroom of grace! What we need and what we have an abundance of is G-R-A-C-E! God"Redemption At Christ’s expense! We are not Adam and Eve, although because of their sin, we were condemned, until the coming of Christ! And now, no condemnation for those who arein Chris Jesus, Hallelujah!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Just food for thought on the thief on the cross.

Below is the Greek to English translation of what was written, concerning what the Lord said to the thief on the cross. .

AND SAID TO HIM JESUS VERILY I SAY TO THEE TODAY WITH ME THOU SHALT BE IN PARADISE

Originally, when scriptures were written, the chapters and verses were not numbered, nor did the writings include punctuation marks or paragraph breaks. Those were added much later.

Now let’s look at the scripture, we are discussing, with the punctuation as placed by translators centuries later.

AND SAID TO HIM JESUS, VERILY I SAY TO THEE, TODAY WITH ME THOU SHALT BE IN PARADISE.

What happens to the meaning of this verse if we move the comma?

AND SAID TO HIM JESUS, VERILY I SAY TO THEE TODAY, WITH ME THOU SHALT BE IN PARADISE.

See what happened? The meaning went from, “I say to thee, today we shalt be together in paradise” to, “I say to thee today, we shalt be together in paradise.”

Now as I said, I am providing this as an example and am not stating this is the case. But it gives one reason to wonder.

Is there a today, this hour or this minute in eternity? We’ll know the answers to that, and whether the thief went immediately into heaven or the bosom of Abraham, in the future. I don’t see one side or the other being able to prove either way decisively. Either way, both sides can agree, that thief is a saint in heaven right now.

 

[1beleevr]

prodigal: Amen to that, my brother:thumbsup: In many instances(too numeros to list), punctuation, and the placement of commas, can change the whole meaning of a sentence! I read that particular verse as Jesus telling the thief, for today I tell you, you will be with me in paradise(to me Heaven, cause that’s where Jesus is)! It was an incredible act of grace, and I do understand that Jesus had not gone to Heaven yet, but that the thief did go to Heaven eventually:thumbsup:

 

[racing59]

racing59: Thank you for that reply! If I didn’t know better, I’dsay you were a catholic in non-catholic clothingLOL! Any way, as far as the thief is concerned, since neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, has proof of what happened to him after Christ promised him he would be in Heaven, we could only assume what we believe his fate to be! Some say, well, he wasn’t baptized, but Jesus did not give His disciples, and us, His commandment and commission until after His resurrection:thumbsup:And what about all those to whom He said,“Your sins are forgiven?” I still am having a hard time making confession and reconciliation mean the same thingBefore we were even thought of, God reconciled man back to Himself, through Christ’s completed work on the Cross! When we admitted that we were sinners, thanked Jesus for dying for our sins, and asked for forgiveness for said sins, we were allowed to be called co-heirs with Christ, children of God, allowed to enter the throneroom of grace! What we need and what we have an abundance of is G-R-A-C-E! God"Redemption At Christ’s expense! We are not Adam and Eve, although because of their sin, we were condemned, until the coming of Christ! And now, no condemnation for those who arein Chris Jesus, Hallelujah!

Hi beleever, To set the record straight I’m not a member of RCC, there are those that will tell you that. I was actual an Assistant Pastor in a Baptist based Church. It is through the Scriptures I started seeing the Catholic faith. Especially teaching Revelation and studying the Jewish historian Josephus. I came to this site very much like you. Through study, Scripture, and the Early Fathers, I see the points the Catholic faith teaches. Matt.27:51-52 is clear the first fruits came forth from their tombs at Jesus assention. It is also clear abou t Paradise being the Bosom of Abraham( Read Lazzerus and the rich man,Lazzarus was in Bosom of Abraham,Paradise). I don’t know what proof more you need. Bible says it, I believe it, that’s all folks.
Peace be with you