Protestants listen up...part II

[racing59]

Got to run I race this weekend. I’ll answer any further questions on Monday.
May the Precious Blood of Jesus cover us all this weekend, in Jesus name,Amen.:bowdown2:

 

[1beleevr]

racing59: I understand the Bosom of Abraham, and find it possible that the thief went there before Heaven, but you’ll notice that both I and prodigalson1, believe that he is in Heaven, whether it was with some form of baptism or not! This is another one of those stories that magnifies the glory and power of God! One of His first displays of grace was in the Garden of Eden, when He clothed Adam and Eve, even after they sinned! Kinda like what He does with us, huh?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

racing59: I understand the Bosom of Abraham, and find it possible that the thief went there before Heaven, but you’ll notice that both I and prodigalson1, believe that he is in Heaven, whether it was with some form of baptism or not! This is another one of those stories that magnifies the glory and power of God! One of His first displays of grace was in the Garden of Eden, when He clothed Adam and Eve, even after they sinned! Kinda like what He does with us, huh?

Hey 1beleevr,

While we agree the thief is in heaven presently, I think you’ve seen the baptism of desire explained. When the thief made his confession of faith, he was minutes away from death and could not be properly baptized, due to circumstances beyond his control. This is an example of a valid baptism, of desire.

 

[1beleevr]

racing: You have to go race, and I’m back to prison today But, I am on the right side of the “bars!” Although, I told someone one day,"Sometimes I think there are people, who for one reason or another(even Christians) who are in more bondage than these inmates If only more people could have the eyes of that thief!

 

[1beleevr]

Okay, I’d like to make a lateral move into some Old Testament scripture! Some friends and I were discussing the story of Onan(Gen 38;4), when one of them said that that was the reason a man was not to ejaculate outside of the vagina! I opined,“What if God killed him, because of disobedience; violating Jewish law?” Still another said, “That’s why we can’t have oral sex either!” Kinda confusing, isn’t it?

 

[1beleevr]

Just wondering;if the church(catholic) is continuing the energetic and passionate evangelism, that the early church(in Acts) did?

 

[phoenix3212]

Just wondering;if the church(catholic) is continuing the energetic and passionate evangelism, that the early church(in Acts) did?

Yes it is. Especially in Africa.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes it is. Especially in Africa.

There’s an African priest at a parish about 20 miles from my Church. I try to visit his parish as often as I can. I went over one evening when he had two guest speakers come in. Both of those priests were African, who work in Eygpt.

 

[guanophore]

Any way, as far as the thief is concerned, since neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, has proof of what happened to him after Christ promised him he would be in Heaven, we could only assume what we believe his fate to be!

I think this is a common mistake that many make about the thief. Jesus did not promise him “heaven”. He promised “paradise”. This may be the place of the righteous dead, where Jesus preached to the imprisoned souls. Whereever it was, it was not “heaven”, since He had not yet ascended, and the gates of heaven were still closed.

 I still am having a hard time making confession and reconciliation mean the same thing:confused:Before we were even thought of, God reconciled man back to Himself, through Christ's completed work on the Cross! When we admitted that we were sinners, thanked Jesus for dying for our sins, and asked for forgiveness for said sins, we were allowed to be called co-heirs with Christ, children of God, allowed to enter the throneroom of grace!

Actually, this is not consistent with Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles taught that we are clothed with Christ in baptism. However, I do agree taht these things you mention are all part of the baptismal rite. A person who professed all these things, yet did not recieve baptism, was not considered “born again”.

It is true that Christ reconciled the world to God at the cross. However, we know that not everyone participates in His sacrifice. Those that do so may also sin and 'spurn the Son of God afresh", defiling the blood that bought them. This is mortal sin. Confession, or the sacrament of reconciliation, is for post-baptismal mortal sin.

 What we need and what we have an abundance of is G-R-A-C-E! God"Redemption At Christ's expense! We are not Adam and Eve, although because of their sin, we were condemned, until the coming of Christ! And now, no condemnation for those who arein Chris Jesus, Hallelujah!

Grace does not prevent us from sinning and still separating ourselves from salvation, unless we allow it.

 

[1beleevr]

phoenix3212:It is always nice to hear of churches, regardless of affiliation, carrying out the 'Great Commision", both at home and abroad! I just finished reading, “The Externally Focused Church,” and as god would have it, am attending such a church at this time! We need(as Christians) to rally the troops, and share the Good News, right here in America too! As I do street ministry, I am very aware of a hunger for Christ, sometimes greater than their hunger for food!

 

[1beleevr]

Sister Guanophore, I mean, what’s up guan? I’m not sure I could say that I made a mistake about the thief on the cross; perhaps just a difference in interpretation! I know that Heaven wasn’t open yet, and I already knew, that he didn’t go that very day. I do believe he went eventually, or will, on that day! Jesus said, “For today, I tell you; you will be with me in paradise”. So if the thief will be WITH Jesus in paradise, where is Jesus? Wait, He rose after 3 days, appeared to his disciples on several occasions, and just prior to the Pentacost, ascended!!! So even in the absence of baptism, as we know it, I believe that the thief is in Heaven!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Sister Guanophore, I mean, what’s up guan? I’m not sure I could say that I made a mistake about the thief on the cross; perhaps just a difference in interpretation! I know that Heaven wasn’t open yet, and I already knew, that he didn’t go that very day. I do believe he went eventually, or will, on that day! Jesus said, “For today, I tell you; you will be with me in paradise”. So if the thief will be WITH Jesus in paradise, where is Jesus? Wait, He rose after 3 days, appeared to his disciples on several occasions, and just prior to the Pentacost, ascended!!! So even in the absence of baptism, as we know it, I believe that the thief is in Heaven!

Are you saying there’s a possibility of another place after this life, besides heaven and hell?

 

[1beleevr]

Prodigalson1: Of course not! Guanophore is saying that paradise isn’t Heaven, and Jesus said that the thief WOULD be in paradise WITH HIM! I knew that the thief did not go to Heaven immediately! It would be like us; we are given the promise of Heaven when we get saved, but it doesn’t mean we are going right away Just saying, if Heaven isn’t paradise, where is it?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigalson1: Of course not! Guanophore is saying that paradise isn’t Heaven, and Jesus said that the thief WOULD be in paradise WITH HIM! I knew that the thief did not go to Heaven immediately! It would be like us; we are given the promise of Heaven when we get saved, but it doesn’t mean we are going right away Just saying, if Heaven isn’t paradise, where is it?

That’s not what I meant. If the thief did not go immediately to heaven, then where did he go if there’s only a heaven and hell?

 

[jean8]

I see the other thread filled up and started this one so the conversation could continue.

Since the main division on the other thread was due to interpretation of scriptures, I’d love some of our Protestant brothers and sisters to explain where they get the authority to tell someone else thier interpretation of scriptures is infallible over anyone else, especially in light of the sola scriptura and private interpretation teachings are non-scriptural.

prodigal,
I like to add a passage from the Bible when it’s appropiate. I’m not interpretating that passage however.
When we read the Bible the Lord gives us the answers we need at that time.
I have found when I go back to the same passage days or even years later God has revealed something new. Isn’t that amazing…

God bless,
jean

 

[1beleevr]

Prodigal: Some have suggested that the “Bosom of Abraham” may exist!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

prodigal,
I like to add a passage from the Bible when it’s appropiate. I’m not interpretating that passage however.
When we read the Bible the Lord gives us the answers we need at that time.
I have found when I go back to the same passage days or even years later God has revealed something new. Isn’t that amazing…

God bless,
jean

I understand what you’re saying, but God’s word didn’t change, our interpretation did. Now, whose interpretation should we follow? I prefer to follow the interpreters that defined the canon of the New Testament and preserved that written word until the present day.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigal: Some have suggested that the “Bosom of Abraham” may exist!

Yes, I know, but you said you didn’t think the thief went immediately into heaven and I wondered where you thought he went.

Christ preached to those “spirits” that were in prison. The Gospel was preached also to the dead.

**1Pe 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

1Pe 4:6 For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: That they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh: but may live according to God, in the Spirit.**

Those spirits were neither in heaven or hell. Where were they?

I’m giving you an example of where part of the belief of purgatory comes from.

 

[jean8]

That’s not what I meant. If the thief did not go immediately to heaven, then where did he go if there’s only a heaven and hell?

prodigal,
The Lords Prayer begins with, “Our Father who art in heaven…”
How do you view 2Cor.12:2-4?

Jesus said to the thief, "
“Today you will be with me in Paradise.”
See also Lu.16
This is for the person who wondered where paradise is.
My view? If God is there, it’s Paradise.

God bless,
jean

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

prodigal,
The Lords Prayer begins with, “Our Father who art in heaven…”
How do you view 2Cor.12:2-4?

Jesus said to the thief, "
“Today you will be with me in Paradise.”
See also Lu.16
This is for the person who wondered where paradise is.
My view? If God is there, it’s Paradise.

God bless,
jean

I see you missed one of my post while you were reading through this thread. No worries, I am copying and pasting it below.

Just food for thought on the thief on the cross.

Below is the Greek to English translation of what was written, concerning what the Lord said to the thief on the cross. .

AND SAID TO HIM JESUS VERILY I SAY TO THEE TODAY WITH ME THOU SHALT BE IN PARADISE

Originally, when scriptures were written, the chapters and verses were not numbered, nor did the writings include punctuation marks or paragraph breaks. Those were added much later.

Now let’s look at the scripture, we are discussing, with the punctuation as placed by translators centuries later.

AND SAID TO HIM JESUS, VERILY I SAY TO THEE, TODAY WITH ME THOU SHALT BE IN PARADISE.

What happens to the meaning of this verse if we move the comma?

AND SAID TO HIM JESUS, VERILY I SAY TO THEE TODAY, WITH ME THOU SHALT BE IN PARADISE.

See what happened? The meaning went from, “I say to thee, today we shalt be together in paradise” to, “I say to thee today, we shalt be together in paradise.”

Now as I said, I am providing this as an example and am not stating this is the case. But it gives one reason to wonder.

Is there a today, this hour or this minute in eternity? We’ll know the answers to that, and whether the thief went immediately into heaven or the bosom of Abraham, in the future. I don’t see one side or the other being able to prove either way decisively. Either way, both sides can agree, that thief is a saint in heaven right now.