Protestants listen up

[1beleevr]

First of all, I don’t think there is a Christian worth his/her weight, who would deny the HUGE importance of Mary in the plan of salvation! But I want Jesus at my death, not Mary! And there’s no need to pray through her or the saints, when we have the Advocate, that Jesus Himself promised us; just as we don’t have to confess our sins to a priest! And if Mary was completely sinless, why would she say," I rejoice in my God and my Saviour(Luke1:47)?

 

[1beleevr]

The woman mentioned in Rev12:1, is not necessarily Mary, it may just be symbolism of something else Any faint possibility hat the crown with twelve stars, may have represented the 12 Tribes of Israel?

 

[CWBetts]

The woman mentioned in Rev12:1, is not necessarily Mary, it may just be symbolism of something else Any faint possibility hat the crown with twelve stars, may have represented the 12 Tribes of Israel?

As has been mentioned bufure, the symbols in Revelation are usually multi-layered with several representations going on simultaneously. But really, what elase would she represent? Or are you assuming that she simply MUST represet something other than Mary, because that would mean that we Catholics are giving her her due respect, and you protestants are somehow missing the boat on her importance?

 

[rinnie]

First of all, I don’t think there is a Christian worth his/her weight, who would deny the HUGE importance of Mary in the plan of salvation! But I want Jesus at my death, not Mary! And there’s no need to pray through her or the saints, when we have the Advocate, that Jesus Himself promised us; just as we don’t have to confess our sins to a priest! And if Mary was completely sinless, why would she say," I rejoice in my God and my Saviour(Luke1:47)?

Why would Mary not say that she rejoices in My God and Savior. Why would you have to have sins to say that. It is because of God that she is sinless. It was by the Power of the Holy Spirit that she was saved from Sin. No one denys that.

And everyone wants Jesus at their death. But what is wrong with wanting his Mother to be there also hurt. I not only want Jesus and his Mother I would love to have all of my Loved ones that have passed to the other side to be there also. What is wrong with that?

And no one has said that you have to pray through the Blessed Mother, we just as Catholics get confort knowing that she is there praying with us, and that we also have the company of the Saints also. It is that confort that the whole thread was about. To let people understand why and what confort in times of horrible pain that we get help from that.

Its like instead of having your Mom or Dad with you in your time of need you have your whole family there for you. Thats what we feel when we ask the Blessed Mother and Saints to go with us to God and pray when we are in sorrow. They accompany us in our lowest point and go with us to Jesus.

Is it not true that the more prayers you have in your life the better off you are. Just think what the prayers of People who see God, and are with him every day can do for you. Its like you can go through this world alone and deal with everything alone, or you can ask for a loved one or friend for help. Why would you not let someone who loves you help make things better. Same thing! Again my point. I just wanted people to understand why we ask for her help, and to realize that she is there is you ever need her.

 

[rinnie]

As has been mentioned bufure, the symbols in Revelation are usually multi-layered with several representations going on simultaneously. But really, what elase would she represent? Or are you assuming that she simply MUST represet something other than Mary, because that would mean that we Catholics are giving her her due respect, and you protestants are somehow missing the boat on her importance?

Amazing huh, how many people don’t realize that the book of Revelations has already happened!

 

[CWBetts]

First of all, I don’t think there is a Christian worth his/her weight, who would deny the HUGE importance of Mary in the plan of salvation! But I want Jesus at my death, not Mary! And there’s no need to pray through her or the saints, when we have the Advocate, that Jesus Himself promised us; just as we don’t have to confess our sins to a priest! And if Mary was completely sinless, why would she say," I rejoice in my God and my Saviour(Luke1:47)?

As far as not “needing” to pray through Mary and the saints, you are correct, but why wouldn’t you? You ask your friends to pray for you, do you not? When you ask your friends to pray, don’t you ask those who you believe to have a good walk with God? Tell me, who is closer to God than the Blessed Virgin Mary? Why would you not pray to someone believed to be in Heaven? To me it just makes logical sense.

As to Mary being concieved without sin: If Mary is the New Eve, then just like Eve, she had to be created without original sin. With Mary’s obedience, she allowed the undoing of what was caused by Eve’s disobedience. She also had to be pure to bring forth the perfection (Jesus). After all, can perfection come from imperfection? She “Rejoiced in God” and called Him “my Saviour” because she was saved from sin by God. Her salvation came through the Immaculate Conception. Had God not intervened, she would have been stained by Original Sin like everyone else. But God did intervene. He saved her at the point of conception, and therefore was still saved by God.

Lastly, confession to a priest is scriptural, John 20:23 specifically gives the Apostles (the first bishops) the power to absolve sins. And 1 John says we must confess our sins. But to who? Who on earth has power to forgive sin? The ordained priesthood. This is the depth of the Catholic faith. It is not enough to simply take a verse as a “proof text”; we must also see how the verse is a single thread in a complex tapestry, having very little meaning unless viewed as part of a beuatiful whole. But that was off topic. We have been discussing Mary. I hope this clears things up for you.

 

[CWBetts]

Amazing huh, how many people don’t realize that the book of Revelations has already happened!

Well it happened on one level, but not on all. It is very much end of the world prohecy, which has not happened yet, but parts of it have, such as the destruction of pagan Rome under Nero.

 

[rinnie]

The woman mentioned in Rev12:1, is not necessarily Mary, it may just be symbolism of something else Any faint possibility hat the crown with twelve stars, may have represented the 12 Tribes of Israel?

Ok, What would you say it symbols. According to scripture the Ark contains the word of God. Was not Jesus the word of God that became Flesh. Did the Blessed Mother not contain the word of God ( Jesus Christ).

I understand scripture could mean many things. But it does not mean it does. That is why Jesus left the Apostles to teach it to us, so we understand it. What good would scripture be if no one knew what it meant? Now who do you think could explain it better you or the Apostles who were there?

 

[rinnie]

Well it happened on one level, but not on all. It is very much end of the world prohecy, which has not happened yet, but parts of it have, such as the destruction of pagan Rome under Nero.

I agree.

 

[OnlyJesus]

According to Biblegateway dot com, the name Mary is mentioned 46 times in the New Testament ( Covenant ).

I really like that website you can enter any word as a keyword search term, choose old or new testament or both or by books…also choose different bibles.

At least 15 of those 46 were Mary Magdalen. I may have missed some b/c you have to back up and read more of the chapter to see which Mary it is…

So approximately 31 verses about Mary, Jesus’ Mother.

Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat **Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Please note Joseph is distinguished as “the” husband of Mary. I would think it would be a little common for the Queen of Heaven to have an earthly husband

**

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

*In Jewish customs to be espoused was technically a wife and a husband could divorce her even tho they had no relations yet, IF she was found in Mary’s predicamen, pregnant. *

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house,** they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: *and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
*
No honor for Mary mentioned in Matthew 2

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Matthew 27:61
And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.

Mary is called “the other Mary”, this is outside the tomb of Christ. Not what I would call a title of Honor. Even Mary Magdalene is identified with her full name.
*
And below, she is again called “the other Mary”. *

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
*
In Mark 6, looks like Mary had some other children, oops nothing about other immaculate conceptions…but brothers and sisters to Christ. In context, it was when Jesus was teaching in the JEWISH synagogue with authority and his people the Jews, could not believe Jesus could perform such powerful miracles…they were saying how is this when he is JUST or ONLY the carpenter, the son of Mary, then they rattle off the rest of Jesus’ siblings. *

Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
Mark 15:47
And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.
Mark 16:1
And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Luke 1:27
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

Luke 1:30
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for **thou hast found favour with God.
**
Luke 1:34
Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

You can read the rest of the verses that contain Mary by going to biblegateway and enter Mary as into Keyword search.

I am really surprised that there are no verses that show us the apostles or anyone showing any honor bestowed on Christ’s mother.

 

[almightyservant]

First of all, I don’t think there is a Christian worth his/her weight, who would deny the HUGE importance of Mary in the plan of salvation! But I want Jesus at my death, not Mary! And there’s no need to pray through her or the saints, when we have the Advocate, that Jesus Himself promised us; just as we don’t have to confess our sins to a priest! And if Mary was completely sinless, why would she say," I rejoice in my God and my Saviour(Luke1:47)?

A pretty good answer to the question I underlined above could be found in the article I link below. The answer is on the middle column of the second page. Click here. The article also explains other things Catholic believe about Mary.

 

[OnlyJesus]

We go to our Mothers and ask her to go to our Fathers and request the things that we want or need. The Mother, knowing our wants or need, and having that special relationship and loving influence with the Father is more aptly to interceded in a way to help us attain our goals.

When I was growing up, I would go ask my mother something I wanted and she always told me “go and ask your Father”.

 

[OnlyJesus]

With that intimate knowledge in mind, we choose to go to the Mother (Blessed Mother) as one of the paths that are available to us to ask her to intercede for us with the Father.

Why would you ask Mary to intercede to God, when Hebrews 7:25 says of Christ:

25 Wherefore** he is able also to save them** to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[almightyservant]

We go to our Mothers and ask her to go to our Fathers and request the things that we want or need. The Mother, knowing our wants or need, and having that special relationship and loving influence with the Father is more aptly to interceded in a way to help us attain our goals.

When I was growing up, I would go ask my mother something I wanted and she always told me “go and ask your Father”.

I think our spiritual mother, Mary is more perfect and involved with our lives than our earthly mothers are. She plays her role very well. My parents bounced around my requests as do many mothers and fathers do, because often my requests are silly. However, when a challenge of great importance is present, the mother plays her role and the father usually listens or lets her make the decision.

 

[almightyservant]

With that intimate knowledge in mind, we choose to go to the Mother (Blessed Mother) as one of the paths that are available to us to ask her to intercede for us with the Father.

Why would you ask Mary to intercede to God, when Hebrews 7:25 says of Christ:

25 Wherefore** he is able also to save them** to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

This verse doesn’t say that we may not ask Mary to intercede for us does it?

 

[OnlyJesus]

“from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.”

“Blessed” is code 3106 in Strong’s Concordance, 3106 matches the Greek (makarizo), which occurs 3 times in 2 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV Page 1 / 1 (Luk 1:48 - Jam 5:11)

Here are the two verses where that same Greek word is used:

Luk 1:48 For 3754 he hath regarded 1914 1909 the low estate 5014 of his 846 handmaiden 1399: for 1063, behold 2400 , from 575 henceforth 3568 all 3956 generations 1074 shall call 3106 0 me 3165 blessed 3106 .

**Jam 5:11 **Behold 2400 , we count them happy 3106 which endure 5278 . Ye have heard 191 of the patience 5281 of Job 2492, and 2532 have seen 1492 the end 5056 of the Lord 2962; that 3754 the Lord 2962 is 2076 very pitiful 4184, and 2532 of tender mercy 3629.

**Blessed from Latin Vulgate Beatifico: V TRANS bless; make happy **

And then in the verse, below, blessed is Strong‘s code 2127::

Luke 1:28****28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.**

Strong’s code G 2127 matches the Greek** (eulogeo)**, which occurs 44 times in 41 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV.
I won’t do each verse for this example but here’s what eulogeo means for this code:

1. to praise, celebrate with praises
2. to invoke blessings
3. to consecrate a thing with solemn prayers
   a) to ask God’s blessing on a thing
   b) pray God to bless it to one’s use
   c) pronounce a consecratory blessing on
4. of God
   a) to cause to prosper, to make happy, to bestow blessings on
   b) favoured of God, blessed

Mary was ( Strong’s code 3106 ) HAPPY to be chosen by God, and
( code 2127), FAVORED by God, Blessed by God, remembered by future generations and praised for being Christ’s earthly mother…

Those definitions are in agreement with ALL the verses in which Mary is mentioned with regard to BLESSED.

 

[OnlyJesus]

The title “Mother of God” can save several meanings and not to be confused with divinity. She only have Him his physical nature. Technically she is the mother of God in a non-divine sense. Theologically, no one can be the Divine Mother of someone who is the Alpha and Omega and uncreated.

I agree.

Christ existed BEFORE Mary. Down here on earth, mothers exist before their children, so yes it is confusing to say and I believe improper to use the term Mother of God, b/c it denotes that Mary existed before God.

God is a spirit. In order for him to come down to us he needed to be born in the same manner as we are, with one exception. God as Jesus could not be born from seed of man therefore the conception was by God’s Holy Spirit. For Jesus to not be born “in sin” God required a clean vessel to nurture the Christ child. Mary found favour with God. God chose Mary.

Let’s not forget that Mary was Joseph’s espoused wife. Is God an adulterer then breaking his own law? No. God could not allow himself to be born out of wedlock so Mary was chosen for her lineage as well as Joseph was chosen for his lineage…so that the prophets predictions of Christ would be correct. After Mary delivered Jesus then she was still Joseph’s wife. Scripture tell us that Joseph never had sex with Mary prior to Jesus’ conception. She was a virgin.

Jesus had siblings that were not conceived by the Holy Spirit but by Joseph, Mary’s husband. Scriptures give no indication that Mary remained in a perpetual virginal state.

I

 

[OnlyJesus]

• “Why not just trust in God as opposed to asking other Christians to pray for you?
  _____________*_____”

We pray one for another as instructed by scriptures:
**
James 5:16**

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Paul to the church at Rome:
Romans 15:30
Now* I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;*

Paul to the church at Corinth:
2 Corinthians 1:11
Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
2 Corinthians 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Paul to the church of Colossus:
Colossians 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Just a few, we believers are to pray for each other.

 

[OnlyJesus]

“No Mary, No Jesus!”

See there it is again, putting Mary BEFORE Jesus.

Genesis: Let US make man in OUR image. ( Us= Trinity )

Father, Son ( JESUS ) and Holy Ghost
i.e. The Trinity existed in the Beginning.

Mary didn’t come along for a while later

 

[OnlyJesus]

I wanted to stop and say i am learning a lot about the Catholic faith…and tho i disagree in areas, i’m glad to be able to post here and fellowship with those who love and profess Jesus as Saviour and Lord…

Believers in Christ are to have love one for another.

Jesus condensed the 10 commandment into just TWO…love God…and love our neighbors as ourselves. As a wonderful Catholic friend once told there is a 3rd commandment implied in Jesus words and that is to love ourselves.