Protestants listen up

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sambos671: Thank you for your reply! And for me, evangelism is no burden, rather it is a tremendous joy, to be in the service of our Lord! To be a part of sharing God’s love with those who do not know Him, or for those who need encouragement and reminders that their God still loves them! As far as the crucfix is concerned, I have never seen one in a non-catholic church, as we believe that when Christ said,“It is finished!”, it was;Hallelujah! To display a cross with Jesus still on it is to me, at least, disrespectful! Those of us who know that He died on it, should not need that type of reminder! When I see a cross anywhere, I am immediately reminded of His brutal death! And I din’t mean to imply that the pope was a member of the trinity, or that anybody is baptized in his name! Because I don’t recognize the pope as Holy Father(a name reserved for the Almighty Living God, only), I usually distinguish that by putting God in parentheses! God bless you, my brother in Christ Jesus:thumbsup:
You say to display Christ on the Cross is disrespectful. To me when I look at that cross I do not see disrespect. I see Love, A God that loved me that much to die for me. And back to the point of this thread a Mother at his feet who saw men pound nails into her sons hands and feet. I could only imagine the pain that her heart was feeling. And the pain of those nails going through Jesus. But to me as much as the physical pain was to be, the emotional pain for Jesus also to see his Mother have to endure watching her baby be killed. I know we diagree that the Blessed Mother suffered as much as Jesus. But to me no one could pound one nail in my hand that would hurt worse then to have to watch someone pound that same nail into the hands of my Son. I could bare the pain more myself and lie down my life for my son, then to have to watch my Son lay down his life for me. Sorry thats just my take on it. Mental Pain can be worse at times then physical pain. But my point is no one has suffered like her. She Loved him so much, and I know he loved her. To me when I walk into a Protestant cross and look at it something is missing. Its is empty. And then it hits me. Christ is missing on that cross, For a cross is just a Cross, but when Christ is on that Cross it becomes the Cross my Lord and Savior was hung on. ITs no longer A cross its THE Cross.

Prot. Son. Excellent post, by the way!👍
 
Could it possibly be wrong to ask Mary to pray for us sinners? When two or more are gathered in prayer God is with us. Note that when you have a group of people passionately praying together you really can feel the Holy Spirit. Just as much have I felt the Holy Spirit after asking saints to pray on my behalf.

That said, I have known people who considered themselves Catholics that worshipped and prayed to Mary and did not give Christ Jesus the light of day.

It seems to me that there is a significant difference between asking Mary to pray for you and praying to Mary.
I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. It is IMPOSSIBLE to pray to Mary and not give Jesus the light of day. No Catholic has ever done this because they know that when they ask the Blessed Mother for prayers she is going straight to Jesus. That is the whole point of going to her. Because we know that she can. So I would have to say that such a statement is something you should re-think before accusing any Catholic of that. Because remember that would be saying something about a Catholic that is untrue. Unless they told you that they prayed only to the Blessed Mother and never Jesus, and I know that is impossible. So would they not be false witness against your neighbor?
 
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You have not. Instead you maintain your agenda and answered questions with questions. When I provide early Church father writings, you say NT please. Then to make a point you say read Ron Rhodes. Who would know more, those who learned from the Apostles themselves, or a man from 2009?

I’m going to be honest and let you know, I find your repeated ad hominems offensive and lacking charitability. I study God’s Word. I’ve told you that several times. Because I reject your private interpretation does not make me wrong. Now you use scriptures to reject the teachings of the early Church fathers over a man from 2009. Can you really not see who is following a different Gospel?

I stand by our posts and believe anyone with common sense can see what is being said.
I don’t care if you are offended. Sometimes the truth hurts. If it will get you to study the meaning of God’s Word, so be it. I also used Ron Rhodes as an example. Do stand by anyone else’s post. Stand by what you say. I do. Use some of that common sense on yourself. If you don’t like the response that we Christians give you, don’t answer back. I will continue to stand for what I have posted and the scriptures I have provided
 
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I don’t care if you are offended. Sometimes the truth hurts. If it will get you to study the meaning of God’s Word, so be it. I also used Ron Rhodes as an example. Do stand by anyone else’s post. Stand by what you say. I do. Use some of that common sense on yourself. If you don’t like the response that we Christians give you, don’t answer back. I will continue to stand for what I have posted and the scriptures I have provided
I have the truth in it’s fulness through the Church Christ gave us. I study scriptures, in fact, I just returned from Bible study. Just because someone does not agree with your private interpretation does not mean they do not study scriptures, nor that they are wrong. The example you provided, was through a link to his writings. I have told you, Catholics are Christians and I really think your comment about “we Christians” is an ad hominem with the intention of inflamming an emotion rather than truly discussing theology. I will continue to stand for truth as given to man by Christ, through His word and His Church.

Now, please provide the scriptures that give you the authority to say another person’s interpretation is wrong? Also, provide the scriptures that without a doubt shows your private interpretation is infallible.

One last question, do you consider Catholics Christians or not? Please explain why.
 
:DLet the glory of the Lord, rise among us!!! Whew, man prodigal, you write a lot! Where do I begin; wel, let’s see, I(speaking only for myself; 1beleevr), I do now, and have always confessed my sins to God, in the presence of, well, Jesus(imagine that!). I have never accused anyone, catholic or otherwise, of not confessing sin to God, or Jesus; just asking,"why do you need the priest! Once, a short time ago, I was confessing a long overdue sin to God! And because I am secure enough in my salvation, and my manhood, I can admit, that I cried like a baby:) And there was no one else around; just me God, and Jesus! Whom one confesses to, is a matter of choice, not obligation! And please don’t lie to me, and say that this was one of Jesus’s commands! I don’t remember ever saying that I believed in sola scriptura, but when someone says something, that doesn’t sound quite right, you say,"Where does it say that?"And you said that confession is also called reconciliation:confused:So when God, through Christ’s finished work on the Cross, reconciled us back to Himself, He was confessing? Let me see if I understand the crux of this discussion; if by some weird chance, I were to convert to catholicism, even though I didn’t believe that the pope was the vicar of Christ, and then I said,“I don’t feel like going to confession!” Then what? God made man in His own image, for R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P.
 
rinnie: I always enjoy reading your posts; they are very heartfelt, and insightful! As for the point of this thread, is there one:confused:It is simply titled,“Protestants listen up…” Let me ask you a question, if your son, daughter, or spouse died a horrible death, which was captured on film, would you want to continuosly watch it? Another angle is this, when I see a depiction of Jesus on a cross, it is like He is being crucified all over again! My former fiance, passed away suddenly, three years ago! I do not need to see her body, blue and purple, riddled with infection, to remember how much we loved each other! I would rather watch the video of her baptism(she was raised catholic, but left the church). And the tomb was empty too! Jesus conquered the grave, and when I see an empty Cross, or wear one, I see victory!👍
 
Darn it; went to post#672, and didn’t find that all scripture provided, proved that apostles forgave sins;) In James 5:16, who is referred to, when we say, “confess our sins, one to another?” Is that you and I? And who is the “Him” referenced in 1John 1:9? Could it be God, because the rest of the verse say,“And to cleanse us from all wickedness”. Were the disciples/apostles also given this power? Just wanting some clarification! I read this vers every which way but loose, and still can’t see that it’s ajohn saying"Your sins are forgiven".
 
Darn it; went to post#672, and didn’t find that all scripture provided, proved that apostles forgave sins;) In James 5:16, who is referred to, when we say, “confess our sins, one to another?” Is that you and I? And who is the “Him” referenced in 1John 1:9? Could it be God, because the rest of the verse say,“And to cleanse us from all wickedness”. Were the disciples/apostles also given this power? Just wanting some clarification! I read this vers every which way but loose, and still can’t see that it’s ajohn saying"Your sins are forgiven".
Brother I hate to say it but don’t waste to much time debating Prodigal on this issue. You could show Him the bible in person and he would still disagree with you. As my Pastor said “sometime its best not to spend too much time on a person that is never going to see the truth anyway.” It is time to move on. As a former Catholic for 33 yrs I know what it is like to try and defend your faith but never really knowing the truth. Thank God I and my family left the church and have been blessed for the last 10 years attending a bibled based church Calvary Chapel. Be Blessed and continue the good fight of faith.
 
rinnie: I always enjoy reading your posts; they are very heartfelt, and insightful! As for the point of this thread, is there one:confused:It is simply titled,“Protestants listen up…” Let me ask you a question, if your son, daughter, or spouse died a horrible death, which was captured on film, would you want to continuosly watch it? Another angle is this, when I see a depiction of Jesus on a cross, it is like He is being crucified all over again! My former fiance, passed away suddenly, three years ago! I do not need to see her body, blue and purple, riddled with infection, to remember how much we loved each other! I would rather watch the video of her baptism(she was raised catholic, but left the church). And the tomb was empty too! Jesus conquered the grave, and when I see an empty Cross, or wear one, I see victory!👍
Well let me put it this way. First of all I do not think that even if she could the Blessed Mother would not do that. And I never said that she would. Second of all there is such a big difference between our dear Lord Jesus Christ being hung and tortured on the Cross. See if your Fiance did die on the Cross for our sins, Then yes I think everyone should be reminded of it each and every day. See there is another twist of Jesus being hung on that cross. Besides his love for us, it reminds of of something else. Listen up! This is a CATHOLIC TEACHING I don’t ever want you to forget. So if you don’t go away from this thread with knowing how much the BLessed Mother Loves you and can help you remember this the next time you do see Jesus on the Cross.

Everytime a Catholic see’s Jesus Christ hanging on the cross we see also how much he suffered. And we know that each and every time we sin, and hurt oneanother we put him back up on the cross again. It was OUR SINS that put him on that cross. Now if that won’t give you the power to not want to sin again, and be a better person. NOTHING WILL!

So see there a numerous reasons to put be reminded of the death of our lord. We as Catholic’s don’t just rejoice because Jesus rose from the dead. We also repent daily for the sins of ours that caused him to be crucified. We each bear the weight of that cross by our oun sins, and without the Grace of God’s forgiveness of our sins we could not finish that journey.

I will explain confession once and for all next!
 
Brother I hate to say it but don’t waste to much time debating Prodigal on this issue. You could show Him the bible in person and he would still disagree with you. As my Pastor said “sometime its best not to spend too much time on a person that is never going to see the truth anyway.” It is time to move on. As a former Catholic for 33 yrs I know what it is like to try and defend your faith but never really knowing the truth. Thank God I and my family left the church and have been blessed for the last 10 years attending a bibled based church Calvary Chapel. Be Blessed and continue the good fight of faith.
I see that a LOT… just fill in the blank after “church”… In you case it is Calvary Chapel.

At least you realize that you LEFT the Church. As least you realize that you are responsible to God, right or wrong, for your family too.

I hope your walk with the Lord is fruitful. You at least have the Book of the Catholic Church in your pew, even if you and your pastor are misusing and abusing it.

Prayers to you for your reversion.

.
 
Everytime a Catholic see’s Jesus Christ hanging on the cross we see also how much he suffered. And we know that each and every time we sin, and hurt oneanother we put him back up on the cross again. !
I find it comforting when I am in a Catholic Church, that we are reminded of His love for us by seeing a cross with the Corpus on it (not the Risen Christ version).

And we see and use the Holy Water fonts as a constant reminder of our baptism into Christ.

And we make the sign of the Cross so often as a reminder of the Trinity, and the Great Commission.

… then when I walk into a non-Catholic venue, I too often see just the cross, no Corpus, which is simply the instrument of torture… or perhaps no reminders of anything - just a stage for the minister and or band/choir.

Difference?

Catholics… our Faith is more of Him, less of me

Others… all about me. OSAS, SolaFide, SolaScriptura…etc

.
 
Now in our faith the forgivenss of sins is TIED in with faith in the Holy Spirit, the Church and communion of Saints.

Now you have heard this time after time but you don’t hear this. It was when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to his apostles that the risen Lord conferred on them his onw divine power to forgive sins. Receive the Holy Spirit If YOU forgive the sins of any they are forgiven the you retain, etc. Now if you could show me where you have that power IM LISTENING! You can’t because you don’t!

In the sacrament of Penance we meet Christ in his Church ready to absolve sins and restore us to new life. Now you see no need for this. I am sorry thats the teaching of Christ. Sorry but sins are a offense against God and rupture our communion with him.

Now Jesus left the Church to Peter and the APostles. Not You. Now you feel that you can skip this step ignore scripture and absolve sins on your own. Sorry you can’t. Jesus said so. The POWER to forgive sins is the Power of the key. Jesus left them to the Church not you. Sorry Jesus said to Peter I leave you the keys to guard the Church, Sorry thats the Pope now. the pope is the successor of the Peter not you!

The Pope leads the Catholic Church and gives the Power to the Priests. Can you do this. Can you show me how after my confession you can say I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. IF so, game on. I will come on over, Get a case of beer, Jack, whatever, we can have a party. You can absolve me of all my sins. But see you can’t the PRiest can. THats why.

Read the bible it tells you if you are in sin you are not reconciled with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both Gods’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church which are expressed and accomplished liturgically the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.

Now can you just say to God I am sorry and you are forgiven. Not according to the teachings of the bible. God didn’t tell me that, He said GO TO MY CHURCH. So condemm me all you want, there is no teaching, no scripture you can ask for we didn’t give you.

Again let me repeat penance is preached as the preparation and condition for entering the kingdom of heaven, from John the Baptism on. That sorrow is what leads us to the sacrament of penance. THe bible teaches postsynodal apostolic exortation Reconciliatio et Paenitentia, a worthy reception of the sacrament in the ordinary way of obtaining forgiveness and remission of sins commited after baptism.

You would fooolish as well as presumptuous to claim to receive forgiveness while doing without the sacrament which was instituted by Christ PRECISELY FOR FORGIVENESS.
(Now those words came from the Pope!)

Now here is MY QUESTION, by the way I would love just once to get a true answer. I am going to pull the protestant trump card, My turn.

Here it goes, show me where the bible says we do not have to reconcile ourself with the Church if we are in sin. Now show me how we can do that on our own. And show me where we have the Power of the Holy Spirit to absolve ourself of sin? Or eachother for that part. We can give eachother forgiveness yes, but we must also reunite ourself with Christ in his Church. How do we do that on our own. Scripture please!
 
I find it comforting when I am in a Catholic Church, that we are reminded of His love for us by seeing a cross with the Corpus on it (not the Risen Christ version).

And we see and use the Holy Water fonts as a constant reminder of our baptism into Christ.

And we make the sign of the Cross so often as a reminder of the Trinity, and the Great Commission.

… then when I walk into a non-Catholic venue, I too often see just the cross, no Corpus, which is simply the instrument of torture… or perhaps no reminders of anything - just a stage for the minister and or band/choir.

Difference?

Catholics… our Faith is more of Him, less of me

Others… all about me. OSAS, SolaFide, SolaScriptura…etc

.
Wonderful reply Mr.S. With one correction if I may. Our Faith is ALL OF HIM, NONE OF US! The only part thet we have in his plan is to do his work. Our life is here to please him and only him. And we have the wonderful Role models. none better than his Mother who was human like us, and showed us what it is like to LIVE BY FAITH. But thank-you for your wonderful response!😃
 
Brother I hate to say it but don’t waste to much time debating Prodigal on this issue. You could show Him the bible in person and he would still disagree with you. As my Pastor said “sometime its best not to spend too much time on a person that is never going to see the truth anyway.” It is time to move on. As a former Catholic for 33 yrs I know what it is like to try and defend your faith but never really knowing the truth. Thank God I and my family left the church and have been blessed for the last 10 years attending a bibled based church Calvary Chapel. Be Blessed and continue the good fight of faith.
Did you ever notice these so-called “Bible Based Churches” seem to be free from attack? I wonder why that is. Could it be that the Devil has no reason to attack things that are already seperate from God? ANd then we can ask why did you leave the Church? Was it after a long process of discernment looking for the Truth? Somehow, I doubt it. The priest, or your Bishop, or the Pope said something you didn’t like. Or perhaps you came across something in the Catechism (I am assuming you have actually read it) that you did not want to submit to. So you went church shopping. ANd you found one that you could live with. One that would let you say “I go to church”, but it didn’t do anything too cahllenge you. One where you had no mandate to become more Christlike. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. A search for the Truth never leads one away from the Catholic Church. Of coursr it might not be your fault. It is no secret that catechesis has been quite poor over the last 30-40 years.
 
Of coursr it might not be your fault. It is no secret that catechesis has been quite poor over the last 30-40 years.
My challenge to you, CW, would be to answer this: I lived in 3 counties before I lived in one that even had a Catholic Church in it. It would seem that if you believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, you would be building them everywhere.

I would say that not only is catechesis poor in Catholic Churches (and for that matter other Christian communions as well), but evangelism in Catholicism in American is non-existent.
 
My challenge to you, CW, would be to answer this: I lived in 3 counties before I lived in one that even had a Catholic Church in it. It would seem that if you believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church, you would be building them everywhere.

I would say that not only is catechesis poor in Catholic Churches (and for that matter other Christian communions as well), but evangelism in Catholicism in American is non-existent.
The Church is growing. In the United States it is a problem because of complacency. I do not deny that evangalization is an are of improvement. On the other hand, when the world atacks a denomination, who gets attacked? Catholics. A Lutheran or Methodist gets caught cheating and what happens? Nothing. MAybe the local papers might run a story. A priest is caught cavorting with a woman, and it is NATIONAL NEWS. Why, I wonder? I am not aware of any works devoted to proving that Methodists are the “Whore of Babylon” I know of entire publishing companies that are devoted to proving the same about Catholicism. I am going to reccomend three books to you. Journeys Home editeded by Marcus Grodi, Surprised by Truth, and Surprised by Truth 2, both edited by Patrick Madrid. Then perhaps you will see the Truth.
 
:DLet the glory of the Lord, rise among us!!! Whew, man prodigal, you write a lot! Where do I begin; wel, let’s see, I(speaking only for myself; 1beleevr), I do now, and have always confessed my sins to God, in the presence of, well, Jesus(imagine that!). I have never accused anyone, catholic or otherwise, of not confessing sin to God, or Jesus; just asking,"why do you need the priest! Once, a short time ago, I was confessing a long overdue sin to God! And because I am secure enough in my salvation, and my manhood, I can admit, that I cried like a baby:) And there was no one else around; just me God, and Jesus! Whom one confesses to, is a matter of choice, not obligation! And please don’t lie to me, and say that this was one of Jesus’s commands! I don’t remember ever saying that I believed in sola scriptura, but when someone says something, that doesn’t sound quite right, you say,"Where does it say that?"And you said that confession is also called reconciliation:confused:So when God, through Christ’s finished work on the Cross, reconciled us back to Himself, He was confessing? Let me see if I understand the crux of this discussion; if by some weird chance, I were to convert to catholicism, even though I didn’t believe that the pope was the vicar of Christ, and then I said,“I don’t feel like going to confession!” Then what? God made man in His own image, for R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P.
Good morning 1beleevr,

If there was no need for a priest, why did Christ choose and ordain the Apostles?

I haven’t lied to you. Christ’s instructions to the Apostles were commands. Those He gave authority too, teach us those commands. Christ told them, “whatsoever you bind upon earth will be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth would be loosed in heaven.” Christ told them, " those sins you forgive will be forgiven, those sins you retain will be retained." These were Apostles, ordained by Him. Peter held the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

The Bible clearly shows there was an Apostolic succession and gives examples of a hierarchy. The Old Testament tells us to let another take his place and Peter stood up and called for a replacement for Judas Iscariot. Were all Apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors. With any hierarchy, there is one commanded to lead. Would Christ have built a Church, setup a hierarchy, and done any less than man would have done?

Show me where the hierarchy was non-existant or self authortive before the Protestant reformation. Show me any writings from self imposed Churches, that you would agree with, from our early history, before the 1500s. God did not let generation after generation follow a false Church and then all of a sudden say, we’ve got to put a correct Church on the earth. Christ promised to be with us until the consummation of the world. There were no gaps in that promise.

Just as men assigned the term “Trinity”, men assigned names for leaders within the Church, based on their knowledge of scriptures and the oral tradition. Christ taught with oral tradition. The Apostles taught with oral tradition. Just as God had the power to preserve His written word, He has the power to preserve the spoken word in His Church.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.


The letters and epistles that make up the New Testament were written, to individual Churches scattered across Asia, 30 to 70 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. Then came a time those writings had to be brought together, along with forgeries and other writings, so the canon of the New Testament could be defined. The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon. Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.

The faith and the Church grew without a New Testament, as you and I know it today. Many things were accepted through oral tradition before that, since they didn’t have the luxury to reference and cross reference. Instances in the New Testament that tell us of conversions, whether a single person, a household, or multitudes, came from the spoken word. When it speaks of “scriptures”, it speaks of the Old Testament, which had no doctrines of the new convenant specified. People accepted the truth based on faith. They didn’t legalize their faith by dissecting every doctrine they had received, whether by word or epistle. They fit their theology to the oral tradition and scriptures. I cannot see the same for the Protestant reformation.

The eternal Father did create man in His image. A Fatherly God, with a Fatherly relationship. When He walked the earth, He taught that relationship to His Apostles. Apostolic succession is the same as a family succession. Everything is passed on.

Reconcilation is confession. Below is a list of the seven sacraments of the Catholic Church.

Baptism
Eucharist
Reconciliation
Confirmation
Marriage
Holy Orders
Anointing of the Sick


I’m sorry if you find that confusing. This is based on scriptures and confirmed by Church writings throughout history. As I said, show me any writings, throughout history that you would agree with, showing doctrines closer to your Church.
 
Brother I hate to say it but don’t waste to much time debating Prodigal on this issue. You could show Him the bible in person and he would still disagree with you. As my Pastor said “sometime its best not to spend too much time on a person that is never going to see the truth anyway.” It is time to move on. As a former Catholic for 33 yrs I know what it is like to try and defend your faith but never really knowing the truth. Thank God I and my family left the church and have been blessed for the last 10 years attending a bibled based church Calvary Chapel. Be Blessed and continue the good fight of faith.
As a person who was raised in the Protestant faith and converted to Catholicism in 1985, I see great irony in your statement. I too used to think I knew truth. It wasn’t until I became Catholic that the truth became clear. While you bring up showing me the Bible, I challenge you to read all of my posts, compared to your own, and tell me who has used the scriptures more.

As you say “try to defend”, I believe the truth defense is much stronger than you realize. The Catholics have been of one accord and of the same mind and judgment in this discussion.

I know of Calvary Chapel. It began in 1965. I fail to see it being the Church Christ built over 2000 years ago…
 
rinnie: as much as I hate to disagree with you on the issue of the crucifix, with the corpus on it, I must!😃 While on the Cross, Jesus said,“It is finished!” He didn’t say, “Every time you sin, I’m climbing back up on this Cross!” Ever win a ribbon or trophy for something, anything? And everytime you look at that ribbon/trophy, you smile, rememberingthe event? That"s how it is with me and the empty Cross:thumbsup: Sure, the Cross is a symbol of torture, just as the unleavened bread, and the wine, are symbols of Christ’s body, and His life-saving blood! So, you keep wearing the crucifix, with Jesus’s body on it, and I’ll keep wearing mine without, and we both will remember the horror of His cruel death, so that we could have eternal life:thumbsup:
 
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