Protestants listen up

[Walden]

Do you revere your bed? Does your bed have any spiritual meaning or represent something other than itself? Do you send flowers or light candles for your bed?I hope not, because if it does, then that’s pretty scary…

Do you get it now?

Well, when I’m really tired…

But my point is, even with all those externals you mention, how do you make the connection to worship? I don’t think you can. We don’t know what’s in someone’s heart.

If you can prove to me that the Catholic Church intends for Christians to bow down in front of a statue of Mary and worship it or even give her the same worship as unto God, then I’ll go down to the Second Church of God in Christ of the Living Waters Christian Center of Mount Horeb Full Gospel Assembly and get saved three or four times during revival camp meeting.

I just get tired of this. You’re repeating the same old tired nonsense we’ve heard since the Protestant Reformation. Funny thing is though, we can’t blame this one on Luther. He had a strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin. John Wesley prayed the rosary while riding circuit.

I haven’t always been Catholic. I would never join something that stands for what you think it does.

In the end, there’s apparently nothing we can do to change your mind. Like someone said above, we say “no”, you say “yes” over and over again.

From Martin Luther:

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ…She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace…Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ…Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

(P.S. The bit above about going to a church with a ridiculously long name was my attempt at humor and was in no way meant to be uncharitable.)

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Do you want to know my point?

Why do Catholics bow in front of a statue and revere it when The Bible says not to, the apostles didn’t do it, and the early church fathers condemned the use of bowing before a statue?

Its NOT about Mary, its not about honoring, and its not about worship…and you keep thinking that for some strange reason up to this point.

I’m using Mary as an illustration because she most commonly attached to uses of statues

The funny thing is that you neglect to even research your own faith and you believe because you were probably one of those Catholics that were raised up to believe EVERY single little thing because some dead bishops said so (even though they were in disagreement) and history proves it.

Why are you even commenting me when you fail to answer the main focal point and run off tangents? If you can’t answer the main question then keep your comments and opinions to yourself.

Why, only because he debunked your silly arguments? No I dont think he should keep quiet, hes adressing a clear point and Im quite proud hes defending the truth!

Not only dead bishops but alive bishops are teaching the same thing to this day (Thanks to the Holy Spirit), and the only thing that history proves is that we came before you started your own church and that we compiled the books of the Bible. You can interpret your own verses to suit your custom believes but that dosen`t prove that the Catholic Church is wrong. It only means you are. For your opinions are build upon sand, your chuch will not last forever, The Catholic Church will.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

If you can prove to me that the Catholic Church intends for Christians to bow down in front of a statue of Mary and worship it or even give her the same worship as unto God, then I’ll go down to the Second Church of God in Christ of the Living Waters Christian Center of Mount Horeb Full Gospel Assembly and get saved three or four times during revival camp meeting.

Or better yet, create your own church, and save yourself as much as you want.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Me: Honoring Mary is good
You: Honoring Mary is good
Bible: N/A
Me: using a statue or image to honor Mary is bad
You: using a statue or image to honor Mary is good
Bible: using a statue or image to honor Mary is condemned
Me: specifically bowing down to a statue of anyone including Mary is bad
You: bowing down to a statue of Mary or anyone is acceptable
Bible: specifically bowing down to a statue of anyone including Mary is bad
Asians: We are all dammned

 

[Hisalone]

Is that your argument???

You dont understand that it was a righteous act on their part?

 

[Hisalone]

When we kneel, it is in worship of our Lord.

Kneeling or bowing down to statues does not happen. I’m actually not sure where the idea comes from other than the fact that there happen to simply be statues in the sanctuary. The commandment in question is not broken by respect or petitions given through prayer to Mary, which has nothing to do with any statue and is not done bowing or kneeling, in order to draw closer to God.

It would be wonderful to see this misconception of “bowing to statues” finally cleared up!

In peace and love,

Elizabeth

I have seen it with my own eyes, you have seen pictures of it. When you walk into a church and there are statues with kneelers in front ot the statues. Why is it that many chose to go to the statue to pray and kneel in front of it. You have seen processions where people rush to touch the statue and parade around with it, kneel before it.

 

[Hisalone]

A multitude of Hebrews knelt down before statues of cherubims.

God specifically commanded that the serphent be looked upon and the angels be positioned on the arc. This was not a liscence to make all sorts of statues and icons.
The Jews understood this and would never erect a statue of Abraham or David.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This hints at something that gives my a great deal of trouble. It is the suggestion that God will be more willing to grant our prayers if someone like Mary or the saints in heaven pray for us. The reasoning goes something like “God is more likely to grant a request if Mary makes it because she is His mother and He wants to honour and respect her. Mary and the saints are free from sin and God will listen to them rather than me because I am a sinner.”.

To me this treats God as if He was human and is affected by our emotions habits. We would listen to our mother more than we would a stranger and we say God would to. However God’s ways are not our ways. God will always do what is right. If we pray, we must trust that God will do what is right. To suggest that God would change His response to our prayer because someone in heaven asks, to me says one of two things.

One, without the prayer of the saint, God would not do what is right in response to out prayer. In other words we need a saint to get God to do what is right.

Two, as a result of the saint, God will change His response from what is right to what is wrong.

These two choices seem to follow to me if the saint is to be any more successful in getting our requests than we are. We hope God’s decision will be different from what it would have been without the saint.

Me praying for someone on earth allows me to show love for them and asking them to pray for me allows them to show their love.

However suggesting God is more likely to grant requests if someone in heaven sides with us, just does not sit well with me. It may be a different thing if you don’t expect better treatment if you pray to a saint, but is this not the common belief?

& & - that’s the Louis XIV theology of intercession:​

• complete nobody approaches
• flunky who approaches
• someone more important
• who approaches someone more important
• who approaches someone more important
• who approaches someone more important
• and so on
• who approaches someone of very high rank & great influence
• who approaches Louis XIV

The complete nobody is far too insignificant to approach Louis XIV

Just one flaw - this is a long way from the NT model: in that, all are complete nobodies, any one of whom can approach God, because we do so in Christ. I think there is a sort of false humility in the Louis XIV idea - be that as it may, the foulest sinner has immediate access to the Father, and is in that way on a par with the most glorious of Saints. There are no second-class citizens in the Kingdom.

BTW, The Saviour is not tied to Mummy’s apron-strings - His priorities were those of His Father in Heaven, & and even ties of blood were not allowed to get the better of those. So that model is defective as well.

 

[LutheranDK]

The three Hebrew boys refused to bow down before a statue of Nebechanezzer at the risk of their own lives. They could have very easily knelt there and in silence say I am not worshipping this statue but they refused.

What kind of nonsense example is that?
What Nebuchanezzer (or however the bloke’s name is spelled in English) meant was for them to bow down and worship his statue. If they had bowed down before the statue, it would (rightfully) have been seen as a sign that they, too, worshipped the king’s statue, even if they took reservatio mentalis.

But that’s not what this is about! When RCs bow before a statue of Mary, they do not worship her. They honor her. And if you can’t see the difference between veneration and worship, it’s your problem.

If I met Her Majesty the Queen, I would bow down before her. Not in worship! But in respect. There’s a big difference!

 

[LutheranDK]

Heres the Bottom line: EVEN HONORING A STATUE OF ANYONE BY BOWING DOWN
IS CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE!!!..
I didn’t make it up talk to the Big Guy upstairs.

SHOUTING IS REALLY ANNOYING TO LOOK AT, AND MAKES YOUR POSITION EVEN WEAKER THAN IT ALREADY IS!!!

It is not the STATUE that RCs are honoring. The statue is a big chunk of marble, stone, etc, and nothing in itself. It is WHO it represents they honor.
It is therefore not Mary’s STATUE, but Mary, who they honor by kneeling down in front of a statue of Mary.

You do the exact same thing as some RCs (and, admittedly, some Lutherans) do: Take verses out of context and meaning, read your own preconceptions into them, and then invoking God, as if your “drumhead theology” was a second Incarnation…

 

[Benjamin8o8]

SHOUTING IS REALLY ANNOYING TO LOOK AT, AND MAKES YOUR POSITION EVEN WEAKER THAN IT ALREADY IS!!!

It is not the STATUE that RCs are honoring. The statue is a big chunk of marble, stone, etc, and nothing in itself. It is WHO it represents they honor.
It is therefore not Mary’s STATUE, but Mary, who they honor by kneeling down in front of a statue of Mary.

You do the exact same thing as some RCs (and, admittedly, some Lutherans) do: Take verses out of context and meaning, read your own preconceptions into them, and then invoking God, as if your “drumhead theology” was a second Incarnation…

Come on Luther, we all know you`re a Catholic in spirit and a Lutheran in flesh

 

[elvisman]

No disrespect Rinnie but I’ve always asked GOD for help directly and HE never EVER let’s me down. While I have tremendous respect for Mary as a role model, GOD is my creator and Jesus is the only one who can intercede for me. Jesus ALONE is my savior not Mary.

With regard to no one ever suffering like Mary I take personal offense to that statement. I almost lost my son to a brain tumor last year. My wife and I had to watch him suffer with debilitating headaches for months before the proper diagnosis was made. His growth has been stunted because of his condition. He will need hormone replacement meds his entire life including injecting himself with growth hormone everyday so he doesn’t die. He still suffers with headaches that are going to be a part of his life. This is a child who just wants to go to school and live somewhat a normal life. Then there’s my wife’s first child that died because the umbilical cord was wrapped around the baby’s neck. The baby died just a few days before delivery due to the doctor’s delinquency in not recognizing the decrease in activity and the baby’s heart rate slowing at various times because the cord was literally strangulating her. My wife’s delivery was more difficult because she had to deliver a deceased baby. Then had to battle the emotions of holding her wrapped in a blanket without ever getting to know her.

It wasn’t Mary who got us through this. It was GOD’s response to our constant prayers in Jesus’ name to HIM alone.

PEACE

Ney NDfan -
As a parent myself, I can’t imagine the ordeal you and your wife (and son) have gone through. Be assured that my thoughts and prayers are with you.

As for Mary – the Church doesn’t teach that Mary is the one who gets us through our sufferings – only Jesus can do that. We ask her to intercede for us – just as you would ask me to pray for you, we ask her to the same for us.

But – we believe that Mary, having carried and given birth to Jesus, who is God, has the ultimate fulfillment of the reality of heaven. She has been made perfect in heaven (as all the saints in heaven are). The big difference is that they aren’t Jesus’ mother.

Every Christian denomination (and the Catholic Church) teaches that there are various levels to the fulfillment of Jesus’ promises in heaven. Whereas, each one of us can have a radically personal and close relationship with Jesus – none of us has or will ever have as close a relationship with Jesus than Mary. None of us gave birth to him. God could have had Jesus simply appear on earth but he chose Mary to be his Ark of the New Covenant.

All** Christians believe that Jesus suffered more than all of the cumulative sufferings of all of mankind. Because God (Jesus) suffered that greatly - the God-Bearer (Mary) would have suffered more than anyone else.**

Luke 2:34-35** tells us that the prophet Simeon told Mary:**
"Behold, this child is destined for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be contradicted (and you yourself a sword will pierce) so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed."

This is not a normal parental suffering that was foretold - but one that only she could have experienced.

Peace.

 

[Hercules253]

SHOUTING IS REALLY ANNOYING TO LOOK AT, AND MAKES YOUR POSITION EVEN WEAKER THAN IT ALREADY IS!!!

It is not the STATUE that RCs are honoring. The statue is a big chunk of marble, stone, etc, and nothing in itself. It is WHO it represents they honor.
It is therefore not Mary’s STATUE, but Mary, who they honor by kneeling down in front of a statue of Mary.

You do the exact same thing as some RCs (and, admittedly, some Lutherans) do: Take verses out of context and meaning, read your own preconceptions into them, and then invoking God, as if your “drumhead theology” was a second Incarnation…

aggghhh must I go on?..Do you not think anyone bowing down in front of a statue knows that? Do you think that even when Pagans bow down in front of a statue that they really think that the statue is actually going to physically hear them, come to life, and listen to them? Of course not genius!!!

Its obvious that the statue itself symbolizes something outside of itself!! Thats the point.
The Bible makes it clear that we can’t even make statues symbolizing heavenly things and bow in front of it…

Leviticus 26:1
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

A stone is still a freakin stone unless you give it meaning! Just like your marble and stone Mary is just marble and stone unless you give it meaning. God commands us that we can’t give even stones a spiritual or heavenly meaning for bowing!!.

I’m not even going to expand on claims of animate Mary statues coming to life and crying real tears and bleeding real blood…

how else would you interpret Leviticus? That verse is more clear than your Mary statue you have at home! I suggest you re evaluate that and take it for what it is and if you can’t understand that simple context it contains then that is your personal problem…I would pray on it…And you blame me for taking things out of context? Half the stuff that the RC does aren’t even in the Bible so they bust out the “apostolic succession and tradition” card…

so let me ask you this: yes Mary was full of grace, the Mother of God, but where did you get the idea on how that translates to “lets make an image of her, honor her, and bow to her statue?”…it certainly wasn’t in the Bible…so what context did you extract that from?

what’s worse then taking things out of context is adding context that’s not even there to begin with! I’ll bet you probably do that a lot…“fill in the gap theology”

 

[Ruthie]

Uh-oh! I just realized that the Bible is full of images that we have given meaning to! (They’re called “letters” and “words” and “numbers.”) Better not honor it; better not use it in worship. Better throw yours away!

But I get to keep mine, because, as a Catholic, I know the difference between an image and an idol.

Praying for your enlightenment,

Ruthie

 

[Benjamin8o8]

so let me ask you this: yes Mary was full of grace, the Mother of God, but where did you get the idea on how that translates to “lets make an image of her, honor her, and bow to her statue?”…it certainly wasn’t in the Bible…so what context did you extract that from?

what’s worse then taking things out of context is adding context that’s not even there to begin with! I’ll bet you probably do that a lot…“fill in the gap theology”

The only time the Catholic Church added context to the Bible is when it added a whole NEW TESTAMENT to it

 

[CWBetts]

Wow, completely missed my point because you’re getting ahead of yourself…now that’s annoying

Me: Honoring Mary is good
You: Honoring Mary is good
Bible: N/A
Me: using a statue or image to honor Mary is bad
You: using a statue or image to honor Mary is good
Bible: using a statue or image to honor Mary is condemned
Me: specifically bowing down to a statue of anyone including Mary is bad
You: bowing down to a statue of Mary or anyone is acceptable
Bible: specifically bowing down to a statue of anyone including Mary is bad

Survey says: Bible wins and I’ll take Gods Word anytime

Heres the Bottom line: EVEN HONORING A STATUE OF ANYONE BY BOWING DOWN
IS CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE!!!..
I didn’t make it up talk to the Big Guy upstairs.

Its NOT an argument about worship and honoring, its an argument about statues and bowing before them. How do you not understand that to this point?

You just don’t get it and keep talking about worshiping and honoring which is not the point I’m making!! Others in this forum understand exactly what I’m talking about except YOU!! I’m arguing about apples and you keep talking about oranges…seriously!!!

geeeeez

God’s Word INCLUDES Sacred Tradition! Maybe if you fully understood the Ten Commandments. Protestants changed the numbering to make excuse to attack the Marian Dogmas, which incindentally were not disputed by the Original Reformers. Thars right, Luther, Calvin, Wesley had no issues with any of the Marian Dogmas, so I guess you are reforming the Reformers?

 

[elvisman]

aggghhh must I go on?..Do you not think anyone bowing down in front of a statue knows that? Do you think that even when Pagans bow down in front of a statue that they really think that the statue is actually going to physically hear them, come to life, and listen to them? Of course not genius!!!

Its obvious that the statue itself symbolizes something outside of itself!! Thats the point.
The Bible makes it clear that we can’t even make statues symbolizing heavenly things and bow in front of it…

Leviticus 26:1
Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

A stone is still a freakin stone unless you give it meaning! Just like your marble and stone Mary is just marble and stone unless you give it meaning. God commands us that we can’t give even stones a spiritual or heavenly meaning for bowing!!.

I’m not even going to expand on claims of animate Mary statues coming to life and crying real tears and bleeding real blood…

how else would you interpret Leviticus? That verse is more clear than your Mary statue you have at home! I suggest you re evaluate that and take it for what it is and if you can’t understand that simple context it contains then that is your personal problem…I would pray on it…And you blame me for taking things out of context? Half the stuff that the RC does aren’t even in the Bible so they bust out the “apostolic succession and tradition” card…

so let me ask you this: yes Mary was full of grace, the Mother of God, but where did you get the idea on how that translates to “lets make an image of her, honor her, and bow to her statue?”…it certainly wasn’t in the Bible…so what context did you extract that from?

what’s worse then taking things out of context is adding context that’s not even there to begin with! I’ll bet you probably do that a lot…“fill in the gap theology”

Unfortunately, you lack the knowledge of history and display your ignorance when you charge that we treat statues and images as idols. Typical nonsense from a typical uneducated anti-Catholic who uses moronic adjectives like, "freakin", to make his ignorant rant known.

**The Commandments were given to the Israelites not long after they had left Egypt. They had been there for four hundred years and had picked up a lot of their bad habits - such as worshipping idols. God told them that HE was God alone and that they were NOT to worship idols. **
Still with me?

Let’s not forget that God himself twice commanded Moses to make bronze and golden idols. The first time was the 2 golden angels atop the ark of the covenant. the next time was the bronze serpent upon the pole that cured the Israelites from snake bites (Numbers 21:4-9). Ummm . . . by the way **- Jesus said about this, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life" (John 3:14-15). **
Still with me? Let’s move on.

What did the Israelites do before the Ark - a mere box with a couple of golden “idols” on top?
Joshua 7:6 tells us:
"Joshua, together with the elders of Israel, rent his garments and lay prostrate before the ark of the LORD until evening; and they threw dust on their heads."

Hmmmm . . . were THEY idolators? Nope - and neither are Catholics.
**They prostrated themselves before God and the SYMBOL of him - just as Catholics might bow before a symbol of God. Are we worshipping the “symbol” Nope - but I think you already know that - well, maybe you don’t. **

As a Catholic - I no more worship a statue of Mary than I do a picture of my wife and daughter that I carry in my wallet and gaze lovingly upon.

There ends the lesson.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

God specifically commanded that the serphent be looked upon and the angels be positioned on the arc. This was not a liscence to make all sorts of statues and icons.
The Jews understood this and would never erect a statue of Abraham or David.

You don’t mention the Temple Solomon built, with all kinds of birds, lions, trees, oxen, cherubims, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Only comments and no answers to any of my questions huh?

I NEVER said that Catholics declare Mary as God or praying “through” Mary is a sin (even though it is unbiblical) or having a unique relationship with her is forbidden, I am strictly indicating that HOW Catholics venerate Mary which is similar to worship don’t you think?

Worship of Jesus:
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Him near the altar

Veneration of Mary
-Get on their knees
-close their eyes and pray, bow head down, clasp hands
-recite a dedicated prayer
-Props such as Roses, incense, candles are used

• Statue of Her near the altar
  -Rosary, in which 90% of the prayers are for Mary

So what’s the difference between worship of Christ and Catholic’s “veneration of Mary”?

The difference is in the** intention**. So, not in the degree of emotion, or anything like that.​

Bodily gestures and “props”, & even words, don’t always make clear whether one addressing:

• God
• a Saint in heaven
• a human ruler
• a high-ranking subject of a human ruler
• someone acting in an official capacity
• a parent
• or someone else

Gestures & props & words are partly a matter of culture - before 1918, the “All-Highest” in Germany was a reference, not to God, but to the Kaiser: a mortal man (& a Protestant BTW). What seems obvious & self-explanatory, sometimes is not. “May the King live for ever” in Handel’s “Coronation Anthem” does not imply that British monarchs are deathless (unfortunately) “The King can do no wrong” was a principle of English law until 1947 - it does not mean that kings were imagined to be sinless. And so on.

BTW, we do pray to the BVM.

Please explain. You can’t tell me that the “motions” are different because that would be an awkward statement of ignorance. I know a lot of protestants aren’t blind and they can see the strikingly similarities.
Its like me saying “Im not really praying to this golden calf, I’m praying through the golden calf which represents God’s mighty power”
ummmm…yeah, OK
“If it looks like it, smells like it, feels like it, then it probably is.”

For Christian theology, as for many other things, that is not a very safe principle - looks are not everything. Jesus looked pretty useless, after all.​

But Catholics will state 'I’m not really worshipping Mary, it just looks like it"…very confusing.

Because they aren’t. We can tell God from His Saints - even if some Christians can’t ​

Who has the right to establish the technicalties of what constitutes worship and veneration? God does! What does the dictionary define as idol?

The Church, guided by the Spirit of Christ, establishes the technicalities. Dictionaries are no good for theology or doctrine - they are not precise enough; they aren’t designed to be guides to theology.​

1: representation or symbol of an object of worship
2 : a likeness of something
3 form or appearance visible but without substance
4: an object of extreme devotion

I guess the Catholic dictionary supercedes the Webster dictionary.

**So once again, I will repeat myself: Its not the intention of honoring Mary because she deserves that honor BUT HOW she is being honored which highly reflects idoltry, a sin. **

The early Church Fathers may have stated that Mary was sinless and the Mother of God, but the bowing to Mary statues were not only completely forbidden but foreign to them! Please recite one early Christian writing source were it states that we were to get on our knees in front of a Mary statue any use roses, candles, and incense for the first 250 years?? I’m only asking for ONE instance where bowing and kneeling BEFORE 250 years

OK: “We fly to thy patronage…” - I forget the rest, but here you are, in a nasty modern translation:​

Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one.

• [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium)

Great stuff
more…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…end…

was considered apostolic sucession.

Apostolic succession is to do with the succession of bishops in the Church - not with devotion to any of the Saints.​

Also, the apostles, including John the last surviving one, “whom Jesus loved” that he entrusted him with his mother NEVER mentions any veneration of her or even go to her for guidance. In Luke’s Acts or Paul Letters, adoration of any statue including adoration of Mary was NEVER recorded or practiced. That is not an opinion…THAT IS A FACT.

Statues are not to be adored - only God is to be adored. Statues are completely inert, & without life or any intrinsic holiness: they may be venerable because of what they represent, but that is all.​

Many things are not mentioned - there is not a scrap of evidence that Jesus intended or desired the writing of a New Testament of books: it would be easy to condemn the NT books as a blasphemous & Anti-BIblical addition to the Bible. The idea that any of them is inspired is completely without foundation in the Bible - unless one goes to Tradition.

It is also a FACT that all that stuff didn’t come into the scene until Pagan Constatine (you know, the guy that executed his son and boiled his wife) instituted the replacement of ALL pagan goddess statues to be replaced with Mary statues.

Evidence please ? Which writers of that time mention this “replacement” ?​

So in actuality, Catholics didn’t get rid of goddess practices but only replaced them just like they did with Easter and Christmas. Coincidence???

You could see Jesus-worship as Christianised Adonis-worship. Even though it isn’t. Of course they were replaced - with something Christian.​

And what is that about Easter & Christmas ? Not Easter = Ishtar again ?

I not here to discuss wether she needs to be honored. Like I said, Mary deserves honor, as the Mother of Christ and being a faithful servant to God.<---- see, I said it!!

Noted ​

WHAT the Church Today teaches about Mary may be the same as back then…but
HOW the Church Today honors Mary is NOT the same as back then…That’s my point

That is debatable. ​