Protestants listen up

[1beleevr]

Well, of course, Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sin; He was fully God, and fully man! And the apostles also had the ability to heal, in His Name! The first word of John 20:23, is “if”. It doesn’t say, “When people come to you for forgiveness of sins!” And what about 1John 1:9? Do catholics believe that this verse, could mean that if we confess our sins to Jesus, that He is faithful to forgive? Speaking just for myself, I have no problem with catholics and others either praying through Mary and the saints, or going to a priest for confession I’m just saying that I don’t feel the need to do either one. I do, however believe in intercessory prayer; which by no means supports praying through Mary or the saints! And I still maintain, that the words of Jesus also apply to us today! I believe that Matthew 28:18-20, applies to all believers, to spread the Good News to all ends of the earth! And as far as I know, Christians have the authority to baptize new believers(in the Name of the Father, the Son ,and the Holy Spirit).Let me ask you,“When you read your Bible, do you not feel as though Jesus is talking to you, also?” Otherwise, you are just reading a history book Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth!!! B-I-B-L-E!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And I still maintain, that the words of Jesus also apply to us today! I believe that Matthew 28:18-20, applies to all believers, to spread the Good News to all ends of the earth! And as far as I know, Christians have the authority to baptize new believers(in the Name of the Father, the Son ,and the Holy Spirit).Let me ask you,“When you read your Bible, do you not feel as though Jesus is talking to you, also?” Otherwise, you are just reading a history book Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth!!! B-I-B-L-E!

I have pointed out that Jesus was specifically addressing His Apostles in Matthew 28:18 -20 and understand you take it to me ALL believers.

Let’s look at St. Mark’s account of the same story.

Mar 16:15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall he condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils. They shall speak with new tongues.
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents: and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay their hand upon the sick: and they shall recover.

Are ALL believers to take up serpents?

BTW, I received the same email with B-I-B-L-E. It still confuses me as to why some can say the Bible is the sole authority, when the Bible tells us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, of course, Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sin; He was fully God, and fully man! And the apostles also had the ability to heal, in His Name! The first word of John 20:23, is “if”. It doesn’t say, “When people come to you for forgiveness of sins!” And what about 1John 1:9? Do catholics believe that this verse, could mean that if we confess our sins to Jesus, that He is faithful to forgive?

You’re “if” argument presents many problems in my view. It makes no difference of how you read it, it still says the same thing. Below are several versions of the verse.

**(DRB) Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

(Etheridge) if you forgive sins to a man, they shall be forgiven to him; and if you retain (the sins) of a man, they are retained.

(IGNT+) ανG302 τινωνG5100 OF WHOMSOEVER αφητεG863 [G5632] YE MAY REMIT ταςG3588 THE αμαρτιαςG266 SINS, αφιενταιG863 [G5743] THEY ARE REMITTED αυτοιςG846 ανG302 TO THEM; τινωνG5100 OF WHOMSOEVER κρατητεG2902 [G5725] YE MAY RETAIN, κεκρατηνταιG2902 [G5769] THEY HAVE BEEN RETAINED.

(KJV+) Whose soeverG5100 G302 sinsG266 ye remit,G863 they are remittedG863 unto them;G846 and whose soeverG5100 G302 sins ye retain,G2902 they are retained.G2902

(KJVA) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

(Murdock) If ye shall remit sins to any one, they will be remitted to him; and if ye shall retain [those] of any one, they will be retained.

(NJB) If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained.

(RSV) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."**

Now let’s play with if. If you forgive sins they are forgiven, if you don’t forgive sins they are not forgiven. It still says the same thing, clearly.

Now let’s discuss 1 John 1:9.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity.

Oh boy, there’s that “if” again.

It states, “If we confess our sins…” It does not say that sins are to be confessed ONLY to Christ and ignore the authority He gave His Church.

You have to understand confession. When we confess our sins, we are confessing them to Christ. The priest is acting in persona Christi. In the person of Christ, as the authority was given to the Apostles and passed on through Apostolic succession.

 

[1beleevr]

prodigal: Yes, I do believe that ALL believers are charged with advancing the Kingdom! When we accept Christ as our personal Saviour, like the apostles, we are endowed with gifts from the Holy Spirit! We are saved by grace, and live by faith, to do the works that Our Father has planned for us:thumbsup: Do you not believe that there are some in the Body of Christ(All believers) who have been given the gift of healing? The disciples wer the original audience, and then people were saved, and told others the Good News, and son, and so on…! I cannot in good conscience, not tell someone about what Christ has done for me, and continues to do for me:thumbsup: And yes, unequivocally, yes, I believe that Jesus’s words were also meant for me! I may not have the gift of speaking in tongues, but I have the gift of compassion, the gift of witnessing, and the gift of mercy(Matthew 25:31-46)

 

[1beleevr]

The word if, in both cases implies a choice not a command or a duty! When I confess my sins openly, I am also confessing them to my Holy Father, through Jesus! Why is it so important to catholics, that non-catholics go to a priest to confess sin? Are they not forgiven, if said people sincerely repent, and confess sins to their God and Saviour???

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

prodigal: Yes, I do believe that ALL believers are charged with advancing the Kingdom! When we accept Christ as our personal Saviour, like the apostles, we are endowed with gifts from the Holy Spirit! We are saved by grace, and live by faith, to do the works that Our Father has planned for us:thumbsup: Do you not believe that there are some in the Body of Christ(All believers) who have been given the gift of healing? The disciples wer the original audience, and then people were saved, and told others the Good News, and son, and so on…! I cannot in good conscience, not tell someone about what Christ has done for me, and continues to do for me:thumbsup: And yes, unequivocally, yes, I believe that Jesus’s words were also meant for me! I may not have the gift of speaking in tongues, but I have the gift of compassion, the gift of witnessing, and the gift of mercy(Matthew 25:31-46)

1beleevr,

You appear to be avoiding my question. Scriptures tell us, “They will take up serpents…” Are all believers to take up serpents?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The word if, in both cases implies a choice not a command or a duty! When I confess my sins openly, I am also confessing them to my Holy Father, through Jesus! Why is it so important to catholics, that non-catholics go to a priest to confess sin? Are they not forgiven, if said people sincerely repent, and confess sins to their God and Saviour???

I really can’t answer your question as to whether or not they are forgiven or not. I do not suppose myself to think like the Lord. I do believe that He told the Apostles, “what sins you forgive they are forgiven” and that appears to be a certainty. Also, you seem to be ignoring my explanation of confession. When you confess your sins to the Apostolic authority of the Church, you are confessing your sins to Christ. Abosolution is given, persona Christi, in the person of Christ, by the authority Christ gave the Apostles of His Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The word if, in both cases implies a choice not a command or a duty! When I confess my sins openly, I am also confessing them to my Holy Father, through Jesus! Why is it so important to catholics, that non-catholics go to a priest to confess sin? Are they not forgiven, if said people sincerely repent, and confess sins to their God and Saviour???

The word if implies that if they forgive sins they are forgiven, if they don’t there are not forgiven. The command comes two verses prior to this one.

Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.

Don’t you think when they Lord told them, “I send you” it was a command and a duty?

Maybe it would help us if we read scriptures, with scriptures.

**Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. **

Two different Apostles, writing their account of the same event…

 

[1beleevr]

Prodigalson1: Not ignoring your explanation of confession, just presenting a different perspective(free will) Your explanation is the catholic view, which sometimes appears to be rather narrow! You use the “club” of apostolic succession and authority to try and make non-catholics submit to your position! Iam merely saying that, my Saviour, the Glorious Jesus Christ, through His finished work on the Cross, gave me the privilege of 1) knowing Him and my Holy Father (God), 2) coming into His throneroom of grace, 3)having the freedom to confess my sins to Him! As for the issue of serpents, I suppose it depends on how one defines serpents! To me, the enemy takes on many disguises, among them a serpent! So, if WE, have been given the Holy Spirit, and the ability to “move mountains”(faith the size of a mustard seed), then why wouldn’t we be able to deal with any “serpents” that we confront?

 

[ppasa316]

Then if what you are saying is true then how could Jesus have this authority. Because if you doubt the authority of that the Son has given do you not in fact doubt he Father also. Lets take a walk to Matthew.

The 11 were at the Mountain where Jesus ordered them. He said to them ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME. GO THEREFORE AND MAKE DISCIPLES OF ALL NATIONS BAPTISZIING THEM IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT. TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT IHAVE COMMANDED YOU. BEHOLD I AM WITH YOU ALWAYS UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE.

Okay now we have a problem. You deny this power. You said God alone has this power. You said we do not have intercession. With the Blessed Mother or the disciples. Then tell me are you Baptized, do you go to church. Why then?

Now if Baptism for forgiveness of sins isn’t enough scripture for you, nothing is. But according to you it holds no authority. Because you don’t agree with that authority Jesus gave them. And if you do not believe in Apostllic authority you will never believe in succession of it.

Go to luke its says HE CHOSE 12. Just like Priests are called today. They are chosen from God.

You claim that you can understand scriptures but a PRIEST can’t. Then why did Jesus tell the Apostles to teach, I don’t recall him telling you to. Lets look at Luke again, 24:47 THEN HE OPENED THEIR MINDS TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE.

Do you realize what I just wrote? Even after his death they did not understand the teachings of Christ… And they were there. It was not until he opened their mind to understand that they could teach. Read Luke 29 now YOU ARE WITNESSES OF THESE THINGS. BEHOLD I AM SENDING THE PROMISE OF MY FATHER UPON YOU. BUT STAY IN THE CITY UNTIL YOU ARE CLOTHED WITH THE POWER FROM HIGH. Now, where is scripture to show us that these Apostles and Priests have the power from On HIGH? Read it! ITs there.

You still haven’t provided any scripture where the disciples forgave someone of their sins. Now you go on to Baptism. One thing at a time. Please again provide scripture to support your claim. I did. Where in God’s Word do you find anyone other than Christ forgiving sins. If you can’t just say so and we can move on to another topic.

 

[1beleevr]

You are right, when Christ said, “Go”, it was a command! How many times did He use this word in the NT? A couple of examples would be He told the man with many demons to “Go”, and tell his family(and others, I believe) what God had done for him! He told the alleged adultresss to “Go” and sin no more! Can we just sit on our hands, and not “GO” tell others about the wonders of our Saviour? No matter how you dress it up, there is no command to confess to a priest! But you have convinced over a billion people to believe it!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prodigalson1: Not ignoring your explanation of confession, just presenting a different perspective(free will) Your explanation is the catholic view, which sometimes appears to be rather narrow! You use the “club” of apostolic succession and authority to try and make non-catholics submit to your position! Iam merely saying that, my Saviour, the Glorious Jesus Christ, through His finished work on the Cross, gave me the privilege of 1) knowing Him and my Holy Father (God), 2) coming into His throneroom of grace, 3)having the freedom to confess my sins to Him! As for the issue of serpents, I suppose it depends on how one defines serpents! To me, the enemy takes on many disguises, among them a serpent! So, if WE, have been given the Holy Spirit, and the ability to “move mountains”(faith the size of a mustard seed), then why wouldn’t we be able to deal with any “serpents” that we confront?

First, I am not using a club of any sort. My view is narrow…as is the path. Our free will is to accept Him and all His teachings or not to accept. Free will of interpretation of scriptures is, non-scriptural.

Now it appears we have a liberty to take a view of “serpents”, just as it appears you believe we have liberties to decide He was talking to all, instead of the audience the scriptures clearly tell us He was speaking too.

You’re really not going to like me reading the “faith of mustard seed” in context…

Mat 17:19 (17:18) Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 (17:19) Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain: Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove: and nothing shall be impossible to you.

Christ was addressing His disciples, the conversation was spoken to the multitudes in a parable, yet Christ explained the parable to the disciples ONLY and not the multitudes…

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You still haven’t provided any scripture where the disciples forgave someone of their sins. Now you go on to Baptism. One thing at a time. Please again provide scripture to support your claim. I did. Where in God’s Word do you find anyone other than Christ forgiving sins. If you can’t just say so and we can move on to another topic.

Yes and you haven’t provided any scriptures that support private interpretation of scriptures…

We accept His authority and His Church. At this point it might be best to agree to disagree…

The problem is, we don’t agree that the Bible is the sole authority. We do agree with scriptures to hold to the traditions that were taught, either by WORD or by epistle.

Christ gave them the command and said what sins they forgive would be forgiven, yet it’s not enough for you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are right, when Christ said, “Go”, it was a command! How many times did He use this word in the NT? A couple of examples would be He told the man with many demons to “Go”, and tell his family(and others, I believe) what God had done for him! He told the alleged adultresss to “Go” and sin no more! Can we just sit on our hands, and not “GO” tell others about the wonders of our Saviour? No matter how you dress it up, there is no command to confess to a priest! But you have convinced over a billion people to believe it!

I haven’t convinced over a billion of people to believe it. It was the doctrine of the one Church for over 1500 years, and unto the present day. It was only since the Protestant reformation that the belief has been rejected by some. So who convinced who?

You continue to go circular in your arguments. That is you bring up points that has been addressed multiple times and appear you have ignore them by repeating the assertion. I and others have said, we are all called to a royal priesthood to share the good news. However, we are not all called to authority over eccumenical decisions of His teachings and His Church. There’s a huge gap here.

 

[CWBetts]

You still haven’t provided any scripture where the disciples forgave someone of their sins. Now you go on to Baptism. One thing at a time. Please again provide scripture to support your claim. I did. Where in God’s Word do you find anyone other than Christ forgiving sins. If you can’t just say so and we can move on to another topic.

I notice you completely ignored the post regarding your theology based on scripture taken out of context (Go figure! ) The fact remains that they were given the authority by Christ Himself. The fact that there is no explicit model is irrelevant.

 

[ppasa316]

Yes and you haven’t provided any scriptures that support private interpretation of scriptures…

We accept His authority and His Church. At this point it might be best to agree to disagree…

The problem is, we don’t agree that the Bible is the sole authority. We do agree with scriptures to hold to the traditions that were taught, either by WORD or by epistle.

Christ gave them the command and said what sins they forgive would be forgiven, yet it’s not enough for you.

I have given you plenty of scriptures. The debate is not with me it is with Christ. If what you say is true then there is no need to ask Christ for forgiveness. Though I Jn 1:9-2:3 say He is faithful to forgive us our sins. Who is He? Christ or the disciples. It really is amazing to me that you cannot understand or believe the Word of God? For Christ sake Where do we read that the disciples forgave anyone of their sins. If Christ wanted us to follow this command would He not have added this in His Word. Wow I know we are not always going to agree on all topics but this is dangerous to add to His word. Please show me an instance where this has happened so I can understand.

 

[allhers]

You know as a kid my dad always said go to the Blessed Mother. She know’s pain, She saw her son hung on a cross. No one has sufferered like the Blessed Mother.

As A Mother every day those words come to life for me.

Go to her. She does not have the Power of Christ but she has the love of Christ to help you.

She is the MOTHER of GOD. Do you not believe that she can help you. Please quit the nonsense of saying she can’t do this or that.

GOD picked her. Give her your pain. give her your problems. And believe if God could have called on her to take the pain of seeing her son suffer, she can help you also.

Go to your Mother she is the Mother that is perfect. Try it . I swear to you she can help you.

What Son or daughter who loves their Mother can refuse her. Don’t you think Jesus is the same!

Trust her! God gave her to you as he was hanging on the Cross. Trust her, as God trusted her!

Back on topic, I was just recently reading some writings of ArchBishop Fulton J. Sheen, he said this:
There is not a Christian in all the world who reverences Mary who does not acknowledge Jesus her Son to be in Truth the Son of the Living God.

 

[CWBetts]

I have given you plenty of scriptures. The debate is not with me it is with Christ. If what you say is true then there is no need to ask Christ for forgiveness. Though I Jn 1:9-2:3 say He is faithful to forgive us our sins. Who is He? Christ or the disciples. It really is amazing to me that you cannot understand or believe the Word of God? For Christ sake Where do we read that the disciples forgave anyone of their sins. If Christ wanted us to follow this command would He not have added this in His Word. Wow I know we are not always going to agree on all topics but this is dangerous to add to His word. Please show me an instance where this has happened so I can understand.

He gave the disciples the power to do so. VER EXPLICITLY. Why do we need then, a picture in Acts of the sacrament? There is no example of a church service either. Or a wedding. Or funeral. No building fund drive either. No one dropping to thier knees and 'accepting Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" Morover, some of these aren’t implied, even tangentally. What is the meaning of John 20:23?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have given you plenty of scriptures. The debate is not with me it is with Christ. If what you say is true then there is no need to ask Christ for forgiveness. Though I Jn 1:9-2:3 say He is faithful to forgive us our sins. Who is He? Christ or the disciples. It really is amazing to me that you cannot understand or believe the Word of God? For Christ sake Where do we read that the disciples forgave anyone of their sins. If Christ wanted us to follow this command would He not have added this in His Word. Wow I know we are not always going to agree on all topics but this is dangerous to add to His word. Please show me an instance where this has happened so I can understand.

If anyone is debating with Christ it’s you. Confession has been a sacrament of the Church for over 2000 years. That sacrament was dropped since the Protestant reformation in the 1500s.

You evidently haven’t read a thing we’ve posted, by your reference of 1 John 1:9 - 2:3. Christ forgives our sins, through the Authority He gave His Church. Do you think John was wrong to write and tell those their sins were forgiven? Where did He get such authority, according to your private interpretation?

1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

(IGNT+) γραφωG1125 [G5719] I WRITE υμινG5213 TO YOU, τεκνιαG5040 LITTLE CHILDREN, οτιG3754 BECAUSE αφεωνταιG863 [G5769] HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN υμινG5213 αιG3588 YOU “YOUR” αμαρτιαιG266 SINS διαG1223 FOR THE SAKE OF τοG3588 ονομαG3686 αυτουG846 HIS NAME.

No one is adding to His Word, some however are editing His Word.

I have provided scriptures from the Apostles, but you reject what they are saying. You disagree with what Christ said, because the Apostles didn’t provide an specific example of it to your approval.

**2Co 5:17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
2Co 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.**

Where is the example of an Apostle approving private interpretation of scriptures? You ignored that question long enough. You say you have given plenty of scriptures, but when we provide a line by line explanation and put them into context, you fail to address those scriptures anymore.

We have provided scriptures tell us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth and that the manifold wisdom of God may be made known through the Church, but you reject that teaching over your own private interpretation. Christ did not say, “I will build my Church upon each and every individual…”

 

[CWBetts]

Back on topic, I was just recently reading some writings of ArchBishop Fulton J. Sheen, he said this:
There is not a Christian in all the world who reverences Mary who does not acknowledge Jesus her Son to be in Truth the Son of the Living God.

When in doubt quote Archbishop Sheen!!!