Protestants listen up

[Prodigal_Son1]

Please show me an instance where this has happened so I can understand.

Christ said, “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” Why do you require more?

Let’s see what the first Christians wrote about confession, afterall they were the ones who learned directly from Apostles or those taught by Apostles. Their writings reveal how early Christianity was practiced.

**The Didache
Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure (Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
Ignatius of Antioch
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop (ibid. 8).
Irenaeus
[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between two courses (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
The Church has the power of forgiving sins. This I acknowledge and adjudge (ibid. 21).
Hippolytus
[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your Royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles. . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, “I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity” (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian
The Apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord ". But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at: the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to his body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him (The Lapsed 15:1-3 (A.D. 251]).
Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . I beseech you, brethren; let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord (ibid. 28).
Sinners may do penance For a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, “Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” * (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253])***

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

John Chrysostom
Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.” Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding: but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? “Whose sins you shall forgive,” he says, “they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21-23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).

I believe the words of Christ and the interpretations of His word by the early Church fathers who kept His Church going and wrote how the earliest Christians practiced Christianity, over the writings of someone’s private interpretations from the year 2009.

 

[ppasa316]

Christ said, “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” Why do you require more?

Let’s see what the first Christians wrote about confession, afterall they were the ones who learned directly from Apostles or those taught by Apostles. Their writings reveal how early Christianity was practiced.

The Didache
Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure (Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).
Ignatius of Antioch
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).
For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop (ibid. 8).
Irenaeus
[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between two courses (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).
The Church has the power of forgiving sins. This I acknowledge and adjudge (ibid. 21).
Hippolytus
[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your Royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles. . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).
Origen
[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, “I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity” (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian
The Apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: "Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord "*. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at: the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to his body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him (The Lapsed 15:1-3 (A.D. 251]).
Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . I beseech you, brethren; let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord (ibid. 28).
Sinners may do penance For a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, “Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” * (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253])**

N.T please

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

N.T please

Why? You’re accepting teachings from Protestant reformers since the 1500s and you totally overlooked post #672 that provided scriptures of an Apostle telling some their sins were forgiven.

You continue demanding an example to your satisfaction but refuse to address a repeated question.

Where is the example of an Apostle approving private interpretation of scriptures?

 

[ppasa316]

I notice you completely ignored the post regarding your theology based on scripture taken out of context (Go figure! ) The fact remains that they were given the authority by Christ Himself. The fact that there is no explicit model is irrelevant.

So then we can pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow. Don’t understand what scripture is taken out of context. Mk 2:7 is pretty clear.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So then we can pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow. Don’t understand what scripture is taken out of context. Mk 2:7 is pretty clear.

Isn’t ignoring Christ’s instructions to those of authority in His Church and demanding an example from the Apostles, picking and choosing?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

So then we can pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow. Don’t understand what scripture is taken out of context. Mk 2:7 is pretty clear.

Your argument is entirely taken out of context.

**Mar 2:7 Why doth this man speak thus? He blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins, but God only? **

Let’s put it into context. Those who rejected Christ was the Messiah asked that question about Christ Himself. Let me correct that, they THOUGHT that about Christ. It was not spoken.

Now read it in context.

**Mar 2:5 And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 And there were some of the scribes sitting there and thinking in their hearts:
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man speak thus? He blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins, but God only?
Mar 2:8 Which Jesus presently knowing in his spirit that they so thought within themselves, saith to them: Why think you these things in your hearts? **

Do you agree with the scribes? Do you deny Christ was God? Do you deny Christ had the authority to give authority to men of His Church?

 

[ppasa316]

I notice you completely ignored the post regarding your theology based on scripture taken out of context (Go figure! ) The fact remains that they were given the authority by Christ Himself. The fact that there is no explicit model is irrelevant.

it is not my theology. What scripture is taken out of context. Amazing If you feel you need to go to a priest to confess your sin’s go right ahead. I think I will go to Christ himself

 

[ppasa316]

He gave the disciples the power to do so. VER EXPLICITLY. Why do we need then, a picture in Acts of the sacrament? There is no example of a church service either. Or a wedding. Or funeral. No building fund drive either. No one dropping to thier knees and 'accepting Christ as their personal Lord and Savior" Morover, some of these aren’t implied, even tangentally. What is the meaning of John 20:23?

Hope this helps. From Ron Rhodes President of Scripture Ministries. “This verse is translated more literally from the Greek: Those whose sins you forgive Have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive Have not been forgiven. The verse does not carry the idea that we have the power to forgive sins in ourselves but that we are proclaiming what heaven has already proclaimed”
Whew LoL Wow

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Hope this helps. From Ron Rhodes President of Scripture Ministries. “This verse is translated more literally from the Greek: Those whose sins you forgive Have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive Have not been forgiven. The verse does not carry the idea that we have the power to forgive sins in ourselves but that we are proclaiming what heaven has already proclaimed”
Whew LoL Wow

Wasn’t it you that said, NT please?

It’s the ole double standard used by some Protestants. We cannot use the writings of the early Church fathers because they are not scriptures, it you don’t believe it read what Ron Rhodes says…

 

[CWBetts]

it is not my theology. What scripture is taken out of context. Amazing If you feel you need to go to a priest to confess your sin’s go right ahead. I think I will go to Christ himself

Mark 2:7. You forget that these are scribes accusing Christ of balsphemy. I would be intersted to see your bookshelf. All I better see on it is the Bible, and one without study notes. According to you all you need is the Bible. Any of that other stuff should be useless. But of course we know that extra-Biblical sources is exactly what you are basing your theology on because it can’t be found honestly in the Scriptures. You have to twist and edit to make the Bible fit the theology. I know its true because I used to be a fundametalist myself. I went to Hyles-Anderson Baptist Bible College for a year. I know the Scriptural contortions used by the Fundamentlaist movement.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

it is not my theology. What scripture is taken out of context.

#680

 

[ppasa316]

If anyone is debating with Christ it’s you. Confession has been a sacrament of the Church for over 2000 years. That sacrament was dropped since the Protestant reformation in the 1500s.

You evidently haven’t read a thing we’ve posted, by your reference of 1 John 1:9 - 2:3. Christ forgives our sins, through the Authority He gave His Church. Do you think John was wrong to write and tell those their sins were forgiven? Where did He get such authority, according to your private interpretation?

1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

(IGNT+) γραφωG1125 [G5719] I WRITE υμινG5213 TO YOU, τεκνιαG5040 LITTLE CHILDREN, οτιG3754 BECAUSE αφεωνταιG863 [G5769] HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN υμινG5213 αιG3588 YOU “YOUR” αμαρτιαιG266 SINS διαG1223 FOR THE SAKE OF τοG3588 ονομαG3686 αυτουG846 HIS NAME.

No one is adding to His Word, some however are editing His Word.

I have provided scriptures from the Apostles, but you reject what they are saying. You disagree with what Christ said, because the Apostles didn’t provide an specific example of it to your approval.

**2Co 5:17 If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
2Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.
2Co 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins. And he hath placed in us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us, for Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.

Jas 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

1Jn 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask: and life shall be given to him who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death. For that I say not that any man ask.**

Where is the example of an Apostle approving private interpretation of scriptures? You ignored that question long enough. You say you have given plenty of scriptures, but when we provide a line by line explanation and put them into context, you fail to address those scriptures anymore.

We have provided scriptures tell us the Church is the pillar and ground of truth and that the manifold wisdom of God may be made known through the Church, but you reject that teaching over your own private interpretation. Christ did not say, “I will build my Church upon each and every individual…”

I have already posted my response to these same questions. I can’t help it if you can’t understand them. Really I ask that you please take a course in the Study of God’s Word. Col 2:8 What did Paul say in Gal 1:6-9 I will continue to pray for you.

 

[CWBetts]

I have already posted my response to these same questions. I can’t help it if you can’t understand them. Really I ask that you please take a course in the Study of God’s Word. Col 2:8 What did Paul say in Gal 1:6-9 I will continue to pray for you.

I have two words for you: Presumptive arrogance.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have already posted my response to these same questions. I can’t help it if you can’t understand them. Really I ask that you please take a course in the Study of God’s Word. Col 2:8 What did Paul say in Gal 1:6-9 I will continue to pray for you.

You have not. Instead you maintain your agenda and answered questions with questions. When I provide early Church father writings, you say NT please. Then to make a point you say read Ron Rhodes. Who would know more, those who learned from the Apostles themselves, or a man from 2009?

I’m going to be honest and let you know, I find your repeated ad hominems offensive and lacking charitability. I study God’s Word. I’ve told you that several times. Because I reject your private interpretation does not make me wrong. Now you use scriptures to reject the teachings of the early Church fathers over a man from 2009. Can you really not see who is following a different Gospel?

I stand by our posts and believe anyone with common sense can see what is being said.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Mark 2:7. You forget that these are scribes accusing Christ of balsphemy. I would be intersted to see your bookshelf. All I better see on it is the Bible, and one without study notes. According to you all you need is the Bible. Any of that other stuff should be useless. But of course we know that extra-Biblical sources is exactly what you are basing your theology on because it can’t be found honestly in the Scriptures. You have to twist and edit to make the Bible fit the theology. I know its true because I used to be a fundametalist myself. I went to Hyles-Anderson Baptist Bible College for a year. I know the Scriptural contortions used by the Fundamentlaist movement.

exactly. the reformers really did. they used these words Bible alone is the soul authority as an excuse to make people believe that they are the ones enterpreting Scriptures. it has blinded many because if you really think about it, you will see that someone is really enterpreting to them. they go to Bible study and still dont realize what they are really doing. they dont even bother to test what they are being taught is what the early Christians taught. yet they tell you where is this in the Bible. funny. very funny

 

[CWBetts]

Hope this helps. From Ron Rhodes President of Scripture Ministries. “This verse is translated more literally from the Greek: Those whose sins you forgive Have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive Have not been forgiven. The verse does not carry the idea that we have the power to forgive sins in ourselves but that we are proclaiming what heaven has already proclaimed”
Whew LoL Wow

Still seems to say that if the Apostles (ot theor successors) do not absolve the sins, they are not absolved! Doesn’t help your cause…and why are you allowed to use extra-Biblical sources and Catholics aren’t?

 

[rinnie]

prodigal: Yes, I do believe that ALL believers are charged with advancing the Kingdom! When we accept Christ as our personal Saviour, like the apostles, we are endowed with gifts from the Holy Spirit! We are saved by grace, and live by faith, to do the works that Our Father has planned for us:thumbsup: Do you not believe that there are some in the Body of Christ(All believers) who have been given the gift of healing? The disciples wer the original audience, and then people were saved, and told others the Good News, and son, and so on…! I cannot in good conscience, not tell someone about what Christ has done for me, and continues to do for me:thumbsup: And yes, unequivocally, yes, I believe that Jesus’s words were also meant for me! I may not have the gift of speaking in tongues, but I have the gift of compassion, the gift of witnessing, and the gift of mercy(Matthew 25:31-46)

But let me ask you this do you have the gift to understand scripture. Did Jesus not baptise the Apostles also. But here is the KEY where did Jesus Christ open your mind to understand scripture, And when did he do it. He did it to the Apostles AFTER his death. Baptism and accepting him did not give them the authority to define scripture did it? It was a special power that earlier in this thread I showed you. When did Jesus give you that power and how. Remember what the bible says beware of people who lead you away from the leaders of the Church. Where is your authority I have to ask. Jesus told me to ask, so I know the true teachers and the teachers who teach of this world not his.

Did he not tell me to stick with Tradition and Early Fathers of the Church. I do that. Apostolic Succession! My Pope can show it, my Bishops can show it, my Priest can show it. Where it yours?

 

[rinnie]

Why? You’re accepting teachings from Protestant reformers since the 1500s and you totally overlooked post #672 that provided scriptures of an Apostle telling some their sins were forgiven.

You continue demanding an example to your satisfaction but refuse to address a repeated question.

Where is the example of an Apostle approving private interpretation of scriptures?

There isn’t any you wont find it. But you will find the bible telling you not to do it! But it is ignored by MANY!

 

[rinnie]

Your argument is entirely taken out of context.

**Mar 2:7 Why doth this man speak thus? He blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins, but God only? **

Let’s put it into context. Those who rejected Christ was the Messiah asked that question about Christ Himself. Let me correct that, they THOUGHT that about Christ. It was not spoken.

Now read it in context.

Mar 2:5 And when Jesus had seen their faith, he saith to the sick of the palsy: Son, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Mar 2:6 And there were some of the scribes sitting there and thinking in their hearts:
Mar 2:7 Why doth this man speak thus? He blasphemeth. Who can forgive sins, but God only?
Mar 2:8 Which Jesus presently knowing in his spirit that they so thought within themselves, saith to them: Why think you these things in your hearts?

Do you agree with the scribes? Do you deny Christ was God? Do you deny Christ had the authority to give authority to men of His Church?

Actually Prodical Son his scripture isn’t really out of context. Let me tell you why. He is right didn’t the Jews ask Jesus that too, How can anyone but God forgive sin. But Jesus is God, ANd did Jesus not again give that power to the Apostles. At the risk of repeating myself over and over what my Father has given me I now give to you. Its in the bible, they just have to ignore it. But is that the thing to do. Ignore scripture or obey it? We know what Jesus said. If he lied then the Apostles did not have the authority to even baptise People. But we know they did, The bible tells us so. You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hades will not prevail, Thats our faith, we live it, we believe it. we know it!