Protestants lose members to 'unaffiliated'

[1beleevr]

I’m not sure if you are making a point in post#99, or just thinking out loud Did something like this happen to someone you know? Are we still on the issue of divorce and remarriage! I am not sur if you detailed what occurs when and if a caholic couple divorces.If one or both decide not to live a chaste life, and instead attempt to remarry, are they excommunicated?

 

[BCven86]

Any response to my notes?

 

[chewchoo]

I’m not sure if you are making a point in post#99, or just thinking out loud Did something like this happen to someone you know? Are we still on the issue of divorce and remarriage! I am not sur if you detailed what occurs when and if a caholic couple divorces.If one or both decide not to live a chaste life, and instead attempt to remarry, are they excommunicated?

how charitiable!! are you saying that i made up this story, especially since it concerns a non-denom church! wow. you keep throwing sinning catholic stories at us and now a story about sinning non-denoms is just a random thought. we-are-all-sinners. get over yourself.

 

[1beleevr]

chewchoo: They are only sinning catholic stones, if you perceive them as such! Between prmerger and yourself, you have determined that if a man and/ or a woman want a divorce, they just have to sleep with their sweetheart, find a non-denom pastor and get remarried! I have never indicated that I condone or agree with any of it! I just shared with pr about my situation! Can you stop your wife from leaving, short of using force, your marriage, if she is bound and determined, as was my ex, after she felt that counseling was breaking down! I was in favor of saving the marriage, and she gave it a try, but decided she just couldn’t play the “game” as she called it! And I referenced Deuteronomy 24:1-4, and John 19:9, asking if Jesus meant you could give your wife a letter of divorcement, if she was unfaithful.And perhaps you need to get over yourself; I never suggested that you made up the story,I mean, I know more than a couple of catholics, who are divorced, and at least one has remarried, to a Methodist.

 

[1beleevr]

bcven86: Not sure if post#102 was meant for me, but if it was:ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

 

[BCven86]

bcven86: Not sure if post#102 was meant for me, but if it was:ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

What? You don’t enjoy gaining a more intimate knowledge of Christ by learning about what his Apostles taught? Shame. It should be quite equivalent to scripture. Did you even look at it. Have you had any experience having such academic discussions?

If you aren’t willing to learn anything from this forum, what are you even doing here? Just trying to make people mad?

We’re just trying to help you get what’s best for you. It’s to your detriment to not listen, even if it is just to disagree at an ACADEMIC level. There is much to gain from said type of discussion. If you are just disagreeing to disagree then that’s not worth either of our time.

 

[1beleevr]

bcven86: I scanned your notes, and it is obvious to me that you put a lot of time and effort into it! I can also feel your frustration; but for me this along with other lengthy posts, in other threads, is tedious to say the least! And it has a catholic slant, so the only way I could believe it would be to say I agree with everything! And I have a pretty intense relationship with my personal Saviour, and through Him, with my Holy Father. Two years ago, at a men’s retreat, a goup of men, which included several pastors, were having quite a heated debate about differnt religious doctrine. I was within earshot, but was witnessing to, and talking with a young man, who was contemplating a decisin for Christ! I am sure that you are an awesome Christian, something I am striving daily to achieve! And I know that with God’s help and direction, I will get there! He put us on this earth, to worship Him, love one another, and reach out to the lost, with the Good News of salvation!

 

[PRmerger]

I put that part in about being catholic, because it seems like, from talking to catholic friends, and reading your posts, that catholics are forced to live with a cheating spouse, who may or may not repent, and ask for forgiveness.

Why, yes, 1beleevr. I’m surprised at that comment. Blessed ar the poor in spirit. Blessed are the meek. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the pure in heart. You as a Christian should know that what we are called to do is never easy. Turn the other cheek, give our cloak to one who has none, forgive seventy times seven…

Some also might criticize Christians as “forcing women to have babies when their husbands have lost their jobs.” Yup. It’s still wrong even if it’s a hardship to do what’s morally right.

I guess you glossed over my story concerning my ex-wife. Unfortunately in America, one cannot make their spouse stay in a relationship if they don’t want to. Remember, she was the adulteress!

I am sad that you had to go through this.

What does Deuteronomy 24:1-4, and John 19:9 mean to you?

?? John 19:9 is about Pilate and Jesus.

Deut 24: 1-4: The OT contains matters “imperfect and provisional” CCC 122, and the teachings on polygamy are not yet explicitly rejected. However, the laws given to Moses were given to protect women from arbitrary male domination.

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger: How do you know that babies are really saved? And if they lost their salvation, the first time they sinned, then we would all be in trouble! So, when this catholic infant who was supposedly saved and baptized, at say eight days, because as you claim,baptism replaces circumcision, does he/she have to get saved as a teenager or young adult

1beleevr, I’ve asked you already twice, and you have not responded with what your pastor teaches on this:

By what mechanism do you believe that infants are saved? But this salvation can be lost, right? That is, not every single soul that’s created gets saved, so at some point this “infant” or “child” loses his salvation, yes?

How and when does he lose it? The first time he sins?

And marriage; ah, marriage, a supposedly sacred institution. A catholic co-worker and friend, named George, has been married to Debbie for 37 years. George is a practicing catholic, however Debbie is not; which infuriates George Debbie has told George, "You may raise our son as a catholic, but don’t ram your religion down my throat!"I would have a lot of difficulty in amarriage like this(you know, unequally yoked and all) And that’s all for now:thumbsup:

Yes, there are a lot of poorly made relationships. :sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger: Re: Post#57,metaphorn) a figure of speech, in which a word or phrase normally means one thing, is used of another thing, to suggest a likeness between the two! So, you see, another word for “blueprint” is “plan”, which does appear very prominently in Jeremiah 29: 11.

I thought I also asked you “where it said in the Bible that those things are a blueprint for Christianity.”

(You said "Matthew 25: 31-46 is a blueprint for what our Lord intends for us to do, while we are on this planet, regardless of what we believe! ")

Where does it say that Matt 25:31-46 is a blueprint? Chapter and verse, please.

You sort of acted like a non-catholic, asking for a scripture to support a point of view!

Well, yes, since it’s our book I guess I can ask you to reference it every once in a while!

 

[PRmerger]

I mean, I know more than a couple of catholics, who are divorced, and at least one has remarried, to a Methodist.

Were they re-married in a Catholic Church?

Or did they shop around for a minister who would ignore Christ’s teaching on divorce (unless, of course, they cheated on their spouses and then that would be ok for them to re-marry).

Sorry…I couldn’t resist.

 

[1beleevr]

:thumbsuprmerger: My bad; it was Matthew 19:9Anyway, this discussion could go on for a l-o-o-o-n-g time, and we’d both walk away still believing what we did when we fist approached it!In a perfect world, every marriage, every marriage would last forever, every child would get straight 'A’s, and I would be out of a job, because there would be no crime: But, because of Adam and Eve, we don’t live in aperfect world! But we serve a perfect Saviour, who is faithful to forgive! And even though some on this thread are waffling over whether Jesus said,“Or if she is unfaithful”, in Matthew 19:9, I am inclined to believe He did.As for baptism of babies, the issue has not been raised by our pastor; but I will ask him on Sunday I have been reading in Acts, this week, and as yet, I haven’t seen any explicit examples of babies being baptized, so I guess it comes down to interpretation by the so-called apostolic successors! I have however seen at least two references to believers receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, when they repented, and turned to God for forgiveness of sin> This must be why today, when we are saved by the blood of Jesus, repent of our sins, ask for forgiveness and are baptized, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit! And as for the "blueprint, I guess I forgot, that one must be very, very, explicit, or it may take two or more posts to clarify oneself! Anyway, I believe that all the way through the Gospels, Jesus was laying the framework for the Christian life(ours included). You know love thy neighbor as thyself, if you love me keep my commandments, along with Matthew 25:31-40, actually, and Matthew 28:19-20. We are on opposite sides of the country, and unfortunately it appears on different planes of thought. I know that my Saviour lives, and I have an incredible relationship with Him, and with all due respect to bcven86, I cannt imagine it getting any better, by following catholic doctrine. I do know that, as I mature in my walk with Him, and I do okay with the small things, He gradually gives me bigger things. It’s a little scar, but He is with me and has given me His Peace and His Joy:thumbsup:May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you!

 

[PRmerger]

In a perfect world, every marriage, every marriage would last forever, every child would get straight 'A’s, and I would be out of a job, because there would be no crime: But, because of Adam and Eve, we don’t live in aperfect world!

I suppose that would be the excuse of all sorts of Christian folks out there who don’t like Christ’s teachings.

“Hey! It’s a fallen world, so I have to cheat on my test!”

“Nobody’s perfect, so I had to hit my child! Hey–are you perfect, Officer? Then you should let me go!”


.

As for baptism of babies, the issue has not been raised by our pastor; but I will ask him on Sunday

No, 1beleevr. I’d like to know** by what mechanism your pastor believes infants are saved.** Then ask him how their salvation is lost. And, if they can lose salvation (presumably when they sin), why can’t an adult lose his salvation when he sins?

I guess I forgot, that one must be very, very, explicit, or it may take two or more posts to clarify oneself! Anyway, I believe that all the way through the Gospels, Jesus was laying the framework for the Christian life(ours included). You know love thy neighbor as thyself, if you love me keep my commandments, along with Matthew 25:31-40, actually, and Matthew 28:19-20

Ah, so when you said those works are a “blueprint for what our Lord intends for us to do, while we are on this planet, regardless of what we believe” that was your own man-made, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation, then? Since there’s no Scripture that says, “this is a blueprint for what our Lord intends for us to do”. YOU decided that baptism isn’t in that blueprint. YOU decided that declaring with our mouth that Jesus is Lord isn’t in that blueprint. YOU decided that repentance is not in that blueprint.

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you!

Right back at cha!

 

[1beleevr]

Hello again, Prmerger: And even though you have not answereed the questions of "How do you know the baby/infant is saved, and is the baby sved forever, or does he/she have to make a public confession of faith when they reach the age of reason? Our pastor does not preach infant baptism, nor does he promote it. So therefore, no need to teach a “mechanism”( is that word in the Bible?) by which the baby is saved! You have heard of dedicating the baby back to God, right? I have seen this, usually when the child is 2 years old. I still don’t understand how the baby can be aware of what is happening to him/her! Are they told that they are saved, once they are old enough to understand?By the way, I don’t have any man-made fallible doctrines in my Christian walk:thumbsup:

 

[PRmerger]

Hello again, Prmerger: And even though you have not answereed the questions of "How do you know the baby/infant is saved,

See 1 Peter 3:21, 1beleevr.

Also, did you know that we have explicit testimony to the practice of infant baptism from the second century on, and implicit testimony that this occurred during the apostolic age, from Acts?

What century did your church’s practice of “dedication” begin? Do you have any documentation of this?

More later!

 

[PRmerger]

Hello again, Prmerger: And even though you have not answereed the questions of "How do you know the baby/infant is saved, and is the baby sved forever, or does he/she have to make a public confession of faith when they reach the age of reason? Our pastor does not preach infant baptism, nor does he promote it. So therefore, no need to teach a “mechanism”( is that word in the Bible?) by which the baby is saved! You have heard of dedicating the baby back to God, right? I have seen this, usually when the child is 2 years old. I still don’t understand how the baby can be aware of what is happening to him/her! Are they told that they are saved, once they are old enough to understand?By the way, I don’t have any man-made fallible doctrines in my Christian walk:thumbsup:

So are you saying that infants are saved by the atoning blood of Christ, just like Catholics do, 1beleevr?

Only you believe that once you’re saved you’re always saved, so no infant can lose his salvation, then?

 

[PRmerger]

By the way, I don’t have any man-made fallible doctrines in my Christian walk:thumbsup:

So when you said those works (You know love thy neighbor as thyself, if you love me keep my commandments, along with Matthew 25:31-40, actually, and Matthew 28:19-20 )are a “blueprint for what our Lord intends for us to do, while we are on this planet, regardless of what we believe” that was your own man-made, fallible, non-authoritative interpretation, then?** Since there’s no Scripture that says, “this is a blueprint for what our Lord intends for us to do”**. YOU decided that baptism isn’t in that blueprint. YOU decided that declaring with our mouth that Jesus is Lord isn’t in that blueprint. YOU decided that repentance is not in that blueprint.

Sounds like a man-made, fallible doctrine to me, if it’s not backed up by Scripture.

 

[OriginalJS]

Mainline protestant churches have been losing membership for years. That’s really old news. Catholics have been gaining members but mostly by immigration so that while memberhship rises, income goes down and there are parishes closing in some parts of the country, while in others parishes are growing. Interesting stuff but hard to analyze.

 

[1beleevr]

Interestingly enough, I couldn’t find mention of infant baptism in 1Peter 3:21 But, I did find in Luke 2:22-23, it mentions dedicating of a child to GodLike I asked, what sign, or confirmation, do YOU, or your church/religion have, that after baptizing the infant, that, he/she is saved?And if sinning caused you to lose your salvation, we’d all lose ours! I like Revelations 22:1-5, because it says thar when we see Jesus, we won’t be any church or denomination, we’ll just all be believers! And, based on what you have said, we all have (to a degree) a man-made, fallible doctrine!

 

[PRmerger]

Interestingly enough, I couldn’t find mention of infant baptism in 1Peter 3:21 But, I did find in Luke 2:22-23, it mentions dedicating of a child to GodLike I asked, what sign, or confirmation, do YOU, or your church/religion have, that after baptizing the infant, that, he/she is saved?And if sinning caused you to lose your salvation, we’d all lose ours! I like Revelations 22:1-5, because it says thar when we see Jesus, we won’t be any church or denomination, we’ll just all be believers! And, based on what you have said, we all have (to a degree) a man-made, fallible doctrine!

1beleevr? Way back in post #93 I asked you by what mechanism you believe infants are saved. I asked again later, and again, and I’m still not sure what you believe.

It’s puzzling why you won’t answer that question. **It would appear that you realize that if you answer that, all of your once saved always saved doctrine falls apart. **

Here’s the thing: if you believe all infants who die automatically go to heaven, then it should follow that anyone who dies will automatically go to heaven. There’s no need to do anything, because Christ’s atoning death on the cross saved us all. Remember, you believe you can’t lose your salvation.

However, Catholicism provides a wonderful response to this: 1 Peter 3:21. Baptism now saves you.

Here’s even more on how we are saved:

"How does one receive salvation, justification, new birth, and eternal life?

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)?

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)?

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)?

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)?

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)?

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)?

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)?

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)?

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)?

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)?

By his Cross (Eph 2:16; Col 2:14)?

Can we cut any one of these out of the list and proclaim it alone as the means of salvation? Can we be saved without faith? Without God’s grace? Without repentance? Without baptism? Without the Spirit?

The Answer:

These are all involved and necessary; not one of them can be dismissed as a means of obtaining eternal life. Neither can one be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into the Church. The Catholic Church does not divide these various elements of salvation up; overemphasizing some while ignoring others; rather, she holds them all in their fullness." from Steve Ray, Catholic Apologist
Source here.