Protestants lose members to 'unaffiliated'

[PRmerger]

prmerger: Is the account of Jesus being dedicated to the Lord accurate? How old was He;eight days wasn’t it? Was this ritual not an age old tradition of presenting, or dedicating the baby to the Lord; to show that the child(even yours) belong to God? If it is true, then the practice of dedicating, or presenting a child to the Lord, would predate the apostolic age

Yet, 1beleevr, you haven’t given me any examples of Christians doing this “infant dedication” in the 5th century, 6th century, 10th century…why?

Yet there are quite clear examples of those tho knew Christ and the apostles baptizing infants (even in the catacombs in Rome there are inscriptions about infants being baptized!), and those who knew those who knew Christ and the apostles baptizing infants. and those who knew those who knew those who knew those who knew etc etc etc!

And I, too consider you my dear brother in Christ, 1beleevr. And while we disagree on many issues, there is much that we agree on.

However, the Truth is the Truth, and if you say something like, “Jesus is not present at the Eucharist”, then it is NOT okay to agree to disagree. :sad_yes:

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: No, I cannot cite any examples of child dedication in those centuries that you noted! Is it important? It isn’t to me; but I think that perhaps,infant baptism, without the benefit of the atoning blood of Christ, probably replaced dedication somewher down the line. I was reading in Acts 16, this morning about when Paul and Silas were in prison, and were praying and praising God(I wonder if they had contemporary Christian type music back then), and the earth shook and chains were loosed.Seems to me that Paul said something like"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and all of you will be saved, including everyone in your household!" Then he proceeded to tell them to get baptized. Does this asume that there may have been babies or infants in said households; who knows for sure? Does your belief in and acceptance of Christ’s offer of salvation mean that your children are “automatically” saved? Once again, who knows? Is not salvation a personal experience that all who want it have to go through?

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger: No, I cannot cite any examples of child dedication in those centuries that you noted! Is it important?

It shows that infant dedication is a relatively new man-made tradition.

And it shows that infant baptism was done by those who knew Christ and the apostles. Seems to give it credibility, doesn’t it?

Does your belief in and acceptance of Christ’s offer of salvation mean that your children are “automatically” saved?

No one is “automatically” saved. The Catholic response to “are you saved?” is:

I was saved, I am being saved, and I hope to eventually be saved!

 

[1beleevr]

chewchoo: Sorry to continue to disagree with you, but even though I know that humans write their children out of their wills, to me this demonstrates “conditional” love, a nasty human trait, i.e., “I’ll love you as long as…!” We can never know that unconditional love that our Holy Father(God, not the pope) feels for us! Believe me I love my wife intensely and immensely, but I could never love her like God loves her; because I am human, and vulnerable to the thing and emotions of this world! God doesn’t force himself on us, and we didn’t choose Him, He chose us! he doesn’t love us for what we do, but because we are, I mean He created uas for a purpose, one of those being to love Him and worship Him; but also for eternity! He wants us to love Him in that same manner! Could I infer that from your response, that your son could lose his sonshp, by committing acts of disrespect or worse? Jesus said, “I will never leave you, nor forske you!” Sure, we turn away from God, some of us on a daily basis; and I believe that God expects that this is possible for all of His children But, because of His amazing grace, and His undying love for us, He allows us to wander. Through conviction and humility, we remember “which side our bread is buttered on.” In 42 years, (and I am not proud of it) I have lost count of the number of times, that because of pride and stubborness, I have wandered away. But, thank goodness that God keeps His promises!

 

[PRmerger]

“I’ll love you as long as…!” We can never know that unconditional love that our Holy Father(God, not the pope) feels for us! !

You know, I just heard something that shocked me–a Catholic apologist said that it’s a misunderstanding to claim that God’s love is “unconditional”. That never once does the term “unconditional love”, (as pertaining to God’s love for us) appears in Scripture.

Do you know, 1beleevr, if this is true? Have we just been assuming that God’s love is unconditional?

This apologist said that God’s love is “unconditional” in a “conditional” sort of way.

What do you think? Any Scripture that contradicts this guy?

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: No, not really! Credibility, is something that MAN uses to promote an idea; you know like the term, "street cred, etc., etc.,? What is you understanding of Luke 2:21-24? And if dedicating a child to God is , as you claim a man-made practice, can you cite examples of when it may have started? Didn’t your denomination have it’s roots in Judaism? Wasn’t your church founded by a Jew? And your first pope(supposedly) a Jew, who according to scripture, was married at one time? Seems like you would know all about dedicaton, especially since our Saviour was dedicated to the Lord at eight days of age:thumbsup: But the bottom line is, you will continue to baptize infants, for whatever reason, we will not, and life will go on! By the way, does the baby know that they are saved? Are they saved for life?

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: Since he is a catholic apologist, it would be pointless for me to attempt to disprove what he said You seem to be very anal about words in scripture, rather than being able to infer something from reading it And, for your enjoyment, no, I do not believe that the word unconditional appears in the Bible, but I did not claim that it did When Adam and Eve fell, after eating the fruit, what did God do, after sending out of the Garden? He clothed them with animal skins; He didn’t just ignore them, as humans sometimes do, or withold affection, to “teach them a lesson!” When you really read, and, I mean really read 1Corinthians 13:4-7, what do you hear Paul saying? I know that catholics think very highly of their apologists. When I hear them say anything, like with other pastors or authors, I take it with a grain of salt; do some reading and research, and pray for God’s discernment in knowing what is true! Unconditional in a conditional way, huh? Sounds rather eloquent, but that coiuld be construed as “putting God in a box”, setting parameters on His boundless, love grace and mercy. We can not judge God’s love by our standards, rather he judges ours by His! This may sound rude, but what your apologist said, really does not carry much waeight for me(can’t speak for other non-catholics). Take a little time, and think of all the people that God has chosen to do His will throughout the ages, and see if God’s actions reflect an unconditional love or not!

 

[PRmerger]

What is you understanding of Luke 2:21-24

Jesus’ circumcision is the sign of his incorporation into the Jewish law. It’s a sign of his belonging to the people of the covenant. Just like baptism is a sign that the infant is now a child of God!

And the Presentation of Jesus in the Temple (one of the mysteries of the Rosary that I meditate upon!) shows that Christ is the firstborn Son who belongs to the Lord. Jesus is recognized as the long-awaitedMessiah, the “light to the nations” and the “glory of Israel”. The sword of sorrow predicted for the Blessed Mother ("all ages to come shall call her blessed!) announces Christ’s perfect atonement for our salvation! (paraphrased from CCC 529)

 

[PRmerger]

And if dedicating a child to God is , as you claim a man-made practice, can you cite examples of when it may have started?

It started, as far as I know, 18 years ago (yikes! compared to the 2000 year history of infant baptism!). My best friend’s son was "dedicated’ in a ceremony that we were invited to.

Didn’t your denomination have it’s roots in Judaism? Wasn’t your church founded by a Jew? And your first pope(supposedly) a Jew, who according to scripture, was married at one time?

Yes.

Hey–did you know that the CC has married priests?

By the way, does the baby know that they are saved? Are they saved for life?

No one who has free will is saved for life.

 

[chewchoo]

well, yes, God’s love can be considered “unconditional”. he loves us so much that he lets us choose our own path. if that happens to be the path to hell then so be it. just because he loves each and every one of us does not equal a guarentee to seeing God face to face when we die. do you believe in hell? do you think anyone is there?

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger: Since he is a catholic apologist, it would be pointless for me to attempt to disprove what he said

It really is irrelevant that he’s Catholic. If he makes a point, are you able to refute it? Otherwise, it would seem to be true!

An atheist can claim, “Pencillin doesn’t kill strep germs anymore.” And the fact that he’s an atheist does not make his statment any more true or false. It’s up to us to check out the veracity of his statement.

You seem to be very anal about words in scripture,

How so?

And, for your enjoyment, no, I do not believe that the word unconditional appears in the Bible, but I did not claim that it did

Then where do you get the idea that God’s love is unconditional if it’s not from Scripture?
Isn’t that then another extra-biblical tradition that you hold, 1beleevr?

BTW, I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you that God’s love is unconditional. I’m just saying that a novel idea has been introduced to me–that no where in Scripture does it say that God’s love is unconditional. That may be something that’s been *added. *

 

[chewchoo]

prmerger: No, not really! Credibility, is something that MAN uses to promote an idea; you know like the term, "street cred, etc., etc.,? What is you understanding of Luke 2:21-24? And if dedicating a child to God is , as you claim a man-made practice, can you cite examples of when it may have started? Didn’t your denomination have it’s roots in Judaism? Wasn’t your church founded by a Jew? And your first pope(supposedly) a Jew, who according to scripture, was married at one time? Seems like you would know all about dedicaton, especially since our Saviour was dedicated to the Lord at eight days of age:thumbsup: But the bottom line is, you will continue to baptize infants, for whatever reason, we will not, and life will go on! By the way, does the baby know that they are saved? Are they saved for life?

the parents know that their baby is saved! baptism is a gift from the parents to the child. did you not feed your children when they were young. did you not bathe and clothe them? these are called caring for your children. infant baptism is a gift from caring parents.

and what’s with the comment on the jewish roots of catholism? jesus was a jew… have you seriously divorced your church from the catholic/jewish roots? where do you think your beloved bible came from?

 

[1beleevr]

chewchoo: Yes, I believe in Hell, and I know that Satan is as real as God and Jesus(and the Holy Spirit) are! Wheyther anyone is there, I can’t say with certainty! And I am not attacking catholicism with the reference to Judaism, just saying that sometimes it seems like you refute or challenge Jewish customs or rituals, such as presenting children to the Lord, which probably predates infant baptism!

 

[PRmerger]

such as presenting children to the Lord, which probably predates infant baptism!

Yes, but infant dediction is only about 18 years old! Big yikes!!

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: LOL! Your posts make me chuckle; I love sharing them with my wife and friends! And you wonder why I make the comment,“putting God in a box!” On more than one occasion, you have said,"Where is that in scripture, I haven’t been able to find blueprint in the Bible!"Do you yourself, daily, or at least weekly “see” examples of God’s incredible love? Or are you wearing blinders, seeing things through human eyes? If you get a chance(unless you already have) you should listen to a contemporary Christian song entitled,“Give Me Your Eyes”, by Brandon Heath! Does God have to spell it out for us? Doesn’t He, and hasn’t He given countless examples of His UNCONDITIONAL love? I never considered that you were contradicting whether His Love was unconditional, but it could be conveyed that PERHAPS, you may have wondered Can you say, without hesitation, that you love everyone in your purview, unconditionally? I can’t, and I like to believe that I am a very understanding, and loving person(thanks Mom, and Jesus!) And the reason I threw in the part about the apologist being catholic, and being able to refute or challenge what he says, is because he is catholic, and speaks from a catholic viewpoint. I heard one, I believe his name was Jim Blackburn, who said that the thief on the cross could not be saved, because he wouldn’t have had time to come down and be saved and baptized???Just because a man says it, regardless of his belief or religious persuasion, does not make it true If I would have heard this apologist make this statement, I would have called in, and said,"Give me some examples of why you don’t believe that God’s love isn’t unconditional. God loves you more for who youare, rather than what you do:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

Prmerger: Did a catholic apologist tell you that infant dedication(it is a beautiful ceremonyBTW) was only 18 years old? Did he reference Jewish rituals dealing with dedicating/presenting infants to the Lord? Oh, and how do us uneducated non-catholics know with certainty, that infant baptism is 2000 years old? How old was Jesus when He got baptized,30-33?

 

[PRmerger]

And you wonder why I make the comment,“putting God in a box!”

Ummm…no…I don’t wonder why you made that comment.

On more than one occasion, you have said,“Where is that in scripture, I haven’t been able to find blueprint in the Bible!”

The reason I ask, “where is that in the Bible?” is because that’s the criteria you’ve set for yourself to determine your theology. So, if you can’t find, for example, “blueprint”, in the Bible, then you’re contradicting your very own criteria!

I heard one, I believe his name was Jim Blackburn, who said that the thief on the cross could not be saved, because he wouldn’t have had time to come down and be saved and baptized???

I am certain that you misunderstood Jim Blackburn. I’ve heard him use that verse to explain the very opposite thing you claim! He cited that verse as an example that the thief on the cross was indeed saved.

Just because a man says it, regardless of his belief or religious persuasion, does not make it true

Indeed!

 

[PRmerger]

Prmerger: Did a catholic apologist tell you that infant dedication(it is a beautiful ceremonyBTW) was only 18 years old? Did he reference Jewish rituals dealing with dedicating/presenting infants to the Lord? Oh, and how do us uneducated non-catholics know with certainty, that infant baptism is 2000 years old? How old was Jesus when He got baptized,30-33?

Can you prove otherwise that it’s older than 18 years old? Again, I’m looking for an example from the ECFs, or from the 10th century…Did your great, great, great grandparents practice infant dedication?

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: I’m not for certain that it was Jim Blackburn who refuted the thief’s salvation, but this is how the converstion went: A caller was talking about the thief on the cross and how it showed God’s incredible grace. The apologist said the following, verbatim"Oh, that could never have happened; because this thief, would not have had time to come down off of that cross and get properly saved and baptized!" I have no reason to make up something like this, heard it with my own ears; almost fell out of my chair And my theology is not just based on the Bible, although that is a great place to start! And while I respect catholic apolgists, as I stated, like all men who opine about anything spiritual, I take it with a grain of salt! Sometimes I’m like Paul, with the scales over my eyes, until someone points something out to me, and I do a Homer Simpson thing,Doh!!

 

[1beleevr]

My great, and great-great, and great, great,great grandparents very well may have practiced infant dedication Neither one of us knows for sure, do we?