Protestants, Mortal Sins, Salvation!

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I am confused about the Church’s position on Protestants and their salvation.

According to Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium:
  1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
Thus, the Church reasons Protestants can be saved and go to heaven.

But, the Catholic Church teaches if you die having committed an unforgiven mortal sin, you can’t go to heaven: catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-possible-for-a-person-with-a-mortal-sin-still-on-his-soul-to-die-and-go-to-heav

All Protestants reject the authority of the Pope, the vast majority do not keep the required Holy Days (in a Catholic Church), all reject the authority of the Church, etc. Thus, according to Catholic teaching, they are committing many mortal sins.

Because Protestants don’t have valid Holy Orders, they cannot have their sins forgiven at a valid confession, and the OVERWHELMING majority never in their lives have a Catholic confession…so doesn’t this mean that almost all Protestants are going to hell?

I don’t see how the Church can take one position in Lumen Gentium and then, through the logical extension of the Code of Canon Law and their various official pronouncements, have a totally different position.

Can someone explain their position on Protestants a little better? Perhaps I don’t have it right.

Justin
 
Protestants are not committing a moral sin if they don’t have “full knowledge”. Since Protestants do not accept the Bishop of Rome or the Sacrament of Reconciliation; they are not willfully rejecting God’s divine revelation.

Protestants can be saved because they still remain catholic in an imperfect way.

That’s my $0.02. Kindly - James
 
JaKael02 said:
Protestants are not committing a moral sin if they don’t have “full knowledge”. Since Protestants do not accept the Bishop of Rome or the Sacrament of Reconciliation; they are not willfully rejecting God’s divine revelation.

Protestants can be saved because they still remain catholic in an imperfect way.

That’s my $0.02. Kindly - James
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Hi James…Thanks…Although, I am still confused about your position. Obviously no one who KNOWS the Catholic Church is the true Church is going to leave it? All Protestants, or the vast majority, are aware the Pope claims supreme infallible authority and that the sacrament of reconciliation exists…They do have knowledge of it; they just don’t agree.
 
jinc1019 said:
Hi James…Thanks…Although, I am still confused about your position. Obviously no one who KNOWS the Catholic Church is the true Church is going to leave it? All Protestants, or the vast majority, are aware the Pope claims supreme infallible authority and that the sacrament of reconciliation exists…They do have knowledge of it; they just don’t agree.
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They have (if they’re up on the teachings of the Church) full knowledge that the Church teaches that such acts are grave matter, but if they don’t believe the Church teaches the truth, you can’t say they have full knowledge. For example, Seventh Day Adventists presumably teach it is a grave sin to not worship God on the Sabbath, but do we Catholics have full knowledge that it IS a grave sin?

Then it comes down to what culpability they may have for rejecting the authority and teaching of the Church.
 
Right. Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent.

Many Protestants are brought up in their respective traditions, receiving either no information at all or a rather slanted picture of Catholic teaching. Relatively few have looked at ancient Christianity in its fullness and said “I reject that.”

Canon law and requirements like observing holy days bind only formal members of the Catholic Church, so no Protestant is guilty there.

The requirement of Reconciliation can be bypassed by having perfect contrition (sorrow for sins resulting from love of God rather than solely fear of Hell), which many Protestants likely have.

Usagi
 
JaKael02 said:
Protestants are not committing a moral sin if they don’t have “full knowledge”. Since Protestants do not accept the Bishop of Rome or the Sacrament of Reconciliation; they are not willfully rejecting God’s divine revelation.

Protestants can be saved because they still remain catholic in an imperfect way.

That’s my $0.02. Kindly - James
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Nicely stated; thanks for sharing your 2 cents worth,
Blessings this Holy Week
Mary.
 
jinc1019 said:
Hi James…Thanks…Although, I am still confused about your position. Obviously no one who KNOWS the Catholic Church is the true Church is going to leave it? All Protestants, or the vast majority, are aware the Pope claims supreme infallible authority and that the sacrament of reconciliation exists…They do have knowledge of it; they just don’t agree.
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It is because of Sola Scriptura…and the rejection of Traditions they do not agree with…their rejection guides their interpretation of the Bible and what counts as Tradition. If it does not agree with their interpretation, it is rejected.

Example, protestants will cite a verse on confession…and assume that confession is going directly to God, but the verse/passage does not state the manner of confession…it only says to confess…but not the how of confessing.
 
It’s best to know that for a mortal sin it requires:
  • Grave Matter
  • Full Knowledge
  • Full Consent of the Will
So, protestants committing sin are probably falling under all of those categories except Full knowledge. Now, i know that most of them believe in the 10 commandments and believe that anyone who goes against them are in sin. They do not have different levels of sin which means (and i’m getting this from my Lutheran relatives) that all sin is grave and is evil. So, we can make a semi-solid conclusion that Protestants aware of the 10 commandments but still break them are committing a sort of, shall we say, unnamed version of mortal sin.
 
You just don’t want to admit that there is such a thing as a mortal sin.
 
Every validly Baptized person is a member of the "c"atholic Church, although imperfectly. Even the most remote heretical group that is Baptized, is a member imperfectly. This is because every denomination on earth has her source in the twelve apostles, whom Christ Church is built.

Even Baptized Catholics in full-communion are imperfectly united to the "c"atholic Church to the degree they participate in sin & concupiscence.

However, this is part of the nature of the pilgrim Church on earth. The pilgrim Church is-was-& will be imperfectly united to the Church triumphed because she is “pilgrimaging”.

Our focus as Christians, is to perfect ourselves to the highest degree possible to the "c"atholic Church. This can be best achieved by having full communion in the Catholic Church, because the Catholic Church is the best expression of the "c"atholic Church Jesus Christ established.

In conclusion, the Catholic Church subsists in the "c"atholic Church; not that the "c"atholic Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

Please correct me if I mistaken any of this. I don’t wish to express error.

Kindly - James
 
snarflemike said:
They have (if they’re up on the teachings of the Church) full knowledge that the Church teaches that such acts are grave matter, but if they don’t believe the Church teaches the truth, you can’t say they have full knowledge. For example, Seventh Day Adventists presumably teach it is a grave sin to not worship God on the Sabbath, but do we Catholics have full knowledge that it IS a grave sin?

Then it comes down to what culpability they may have for rejecting the authority and teaching of the Church.
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This doesn’t make sense…Obviously ALL people who don’t follow the Church don’t follow the Church because they believe the Church is wrong
 
Bballer32 said:
It’s best to know that for a mortal sin it requires:
  • Grave Matter
  • Full Knowledge
  • Full Consent of the Will
So, protestants committing sin are probably falling under all of those categories except Full knowledge. Now, i know that most of them believe in the 10 commandments and believe that anyone who goes against them are in sin. They do not have different levels of sin which means (and i’m getting this from my Lutheran relatives) that all sin is grave and is evil. So, we can make a semi-solid conclusion that Protestants aware of the 10 commandments but still break them are committing a sort of, shall we say, unnamed version of mortal sin.
Click to expand...
How is this different than a Catholic who simply doesn’t believe the Church is right? I don’t see a difference.

Based on this view of “full knowledge,” the only people who would commit mortal sins are those who KNOW the Church is right but choose to ignore the Church despite knowing it. That isn’t how mortal sins have been applied throughout Church history and that would leave virtually NO ONE committing mortal sins when it comes to theological beliefs. Do I have it right? Or am I missing something here?
 
jinc1019 said:
How is this different than a Catholic who simply doesn’t believe the Church is right? I don’t see a difference.

Based on this view of “full knowledge,” the only people who would commit mortal sins are those who KNOW the Church is right but choose to ignore the Church despite knowing it. That isn’t how mortal sins have been applied throughout Church history and that would leave virtually NO ONE committing mortal sins when it comes to theological beliefs. Do I have it right? Or am I missing something here?
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Actually what you’ve just described is the Church’s position on “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.”, Those who chose to reject the teaching of the Catholic Church while believing her to be the one true church of Christ are considered outside the Church and cannot be saved while they remain in this condition. On the other hand, those who sincerely believe the Catholic Church is not the true Church but endeavor to live a life in conformity with Christian priniciples are imperfectly joined to the Church and can be saved.
 
jinc1019 said:
How is this different than a Catholic who simply doesn’t believe the Church is right? I don’t see a difference.

Based on this view of “full knowledge,” the only people who would commit mortal sins are those who KNOW the Church is right but choose to ignore the Church despite knowing it. That isn’t how mortal sins have been applied throughout Church history and that would leave virtually NO ONE committing mortal sins when it comes to theological beliefs. Do I have it right? Or am I missing something here?
Click to expand...
Actually what you’ve just described is the Church’s position on “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.”, Those who chose to reject the teaching of the Catholic Church while believing her to be the one true church of Christ are considered outside the Church and cannot be saved while they remain in this condition. On the other hand, those who belong to other faith communities and sincerely believe the Catholic Church is not the true Church but endeavor to live a life in conformity with Christian principles are imperfectly joined to the Church and can be saved.
 
aemcpa said:
You just don’t want to admit that there is such a thing as a mortal sin.
Click to expand...
I do think there is mortal sin…Not sure where you are getting this? No one here has suggested otherwise as far as I can tell.
 
owensjo said:
Actually what you’ve just described is the Church’s position on “no salvation outside the Catholic Church.”, Those who chose to reject the teaching of the Catholic Church while believing her to be the one true church of Christ are considered outside the Church and cannot be saved while they remain in this condition. On the other hand, those who belong to other faith communities and sincerely believe the Catholic Church is not the true Church but endeavor to live a life in conformity with Christian principles are imperfectly joined to the Church and can be saved.
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Thank you very much for posting this…It gets to the heart of my question!

I am not sure I fully understand though. Do you have some kind of official source that presents this material? Or even something from an apologist?

This seems like a confusing position to have. Essentially, from what I can gather, you are saying that if I actually believe the Catholic Church is the one true church but disagree with one of their positions on an issue, that is worse than believing the Catholic Church is NOT the one true church and they are wrong on a particular issue? That doesn’t seem very logical to me. I am not saying you are wrong, I just don’t understand how that could be the position of the Church.
 
snarflemike said:
They have (if they’re up on the teachings of the Church) full knowledge that the Church teaches that such acts are grave matter, but if they don’t believe the Church teaches the truth, you can’t say they have full knowledge. For example, Seventh Day Adventists presumably teach it is a grave sin to not worship God on the Sabbath, but do we Catholics have full knowledge that it IS a grave sin?

Then it comes down to what culpability they may have for rejecting the authority and teaching of the Church.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I wasn’t specific enough before…This is what I meant…

Based on your statement, the only people who could be classified as having “full knowledge” are those who agree with the Catholic Church’s position but choose to disobey. For instance, a Catholic believes murder is a mortal sin, the Church teaches murder is a mortal sin, a Catholic murders…the Catholic committed a mortal sin.

But, if a person who doesn’t accept the Church’s teaching, on contraception for instance, uses contraception, that is not a mortal sin because they don’t believe it and thus don’t have “full knowledge.” Follow so far?

I understand your position on those kinds of issues.

However, when you start to deal with issues directly relating to authority, then this formula begins to make less sense.

For instance, the Church says rejecting papal infallibility is a grave matter that could constitute a mortal sin. But EVERYONE who rejects papal infallibility does so because they don’t believe the Church is right about it. So then, how can anyone who believes papal infallibility is wrong commit a mortal sin?
 
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