Protestants, Mortal Sins, Salvation!

[porthos11]

Pathos…

Excellent responses. You have definitely cleared this up from the Catholic position…Except for one last scenario…

What about the Catholic who, on any particular topic, but let’s contraception…Studies the scriptures, studies the Catholic position, has always followed everything the Church has taught for his whole life, and comes to the honest and true belief that the Catholic Church is wrong. Again, it could be about anything. Unlike in the last example, this Catholic has always been engaged in the Church and has been devout. If he uses contraception, believing completely it is NOT a sin, but knowing the Catholic Church does think it is a mortal sin, will he receive the mark of a mortal sin on his soul according to the Catholic Church?

What I am trying to get at is…Does a sincere belief held by an informed Catholic (we have already examined this for Protestants and uninformed Catholics) allow the Catholic to escape mortal sin because he doesn’t have “full knowledge?” Or is “full knowledge” for the devout Catholic simply knowing the Church’s position, even if he doesn’t believe it?

I know we have sort of addressed this indirectly already, but just to be sure I get this straight, it would be great if you could address this last issue.

Yes, he incurs mortal sin. He only needs to know that it is a grave sin (which he does because he’s aware of the Church’s teaching, not believing it is something else), not to necessarily understand the why. Again, it’s assent that’s required. Just because he doesn’t fully understand the Church’s teaching does not excuse him from full knowledge. In fact, given the scenario you stated, the proper response would be to simply obey.

We can’t use the “sincere belief” excuse because of the obligation to properly form our consciences, and we don’t do that by following our own way (because teaching authority has been given to the Church, not to the individual). Too often “sincere belief” is merely self-deception.

There are many things we are all ignorant or unsure of, and the Church hasn’t ruled on and we can only proceed the best we can. However contraception isn’t one of them. Even the Church’s enemies know what the Church teaches about it. For a Catholic, merely knowing that the Church teaches it as a matter of morals binds the conscience. Faith seeking understanding, not the other way around.

So again, this hypothetical person is a devout Catholic. He will need to ask himself. Why do I remain part of the Catholic Church? If he answers because he believes it to be the Church founded by Christ, then he has to believe all that Christ said of it, with the power to bind and loose. If this is the Church founded by Christ, then he must believe the Church over himself in case of any conflict.

 

[jinc1019]

Yes, he incurs mortal sin. He only needs to know that it is a grave sin (which he does because he’s aware of the Church’s teaching, not believing it is something else), not to necessarily understand the why. Again, it’s assent that’s required. Just because he doesn’t fully understand the Church’s teaching does not excuse him from full knowledge. In fact, given the scenario you stated, the proper response would be to simply obey.

We can’t use the “sincere belief” excuse because of the obligation to properly form our consciences, and we don’t do that by following our own way (because teaching authority has been given to the Church, not to the individual). Too often “sincere belief” is merely self-deception.

There are many things we are all ignorant or unsure of, and the Church hasn’t ruled on and we can only proceed the best we can. However contraception isn’t one of them. Even the Church’s enemies know what the Church teaches about it. For a Catholic, merely knowing that the Church teaches it as a matter of morals binds the conscience. Faith seeking understanding, not the other way around.

So again, this hypothetical person is a devout Catholic. He will need to ask himself. Why do I remain part of the Catholic Church? If he answers because he believes it to be the Church founded by Christ, then he has to believe all that Christ said of it, with the power to bind and loose. If this is the Church founded by Christ, then he must believe the Church over himself in case of any conflict.

Excellent response again. I have to say, you have really settled the issue for me. Thanks so much for all of your effort…I know it was a lot of work!

Thanks again for your excellent informed explanations.

Justin

 

[jinc1019]

I think the question has been answered thoroughly…so I am finished checking the thread and it can be closed.

 

[Bballer32]

Jon, You may very well be correct.

However, the fact remains that the official Catholic position appears to be, since VATICAN II, that a non-Catholic who truly and sincerely does not believe in any particular teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, is not condemned to hell when he dies because he didn’t have “full knowledge” that sin was a sin at all. For instance, if a Baptist believes the Pope is NOT infallible, he is not considered to have committed a mortal sin, because he didn’t have “full knowledge” that the teaching was correct…In other words, he didn’t believe it.

However, a person who was baptized in the Catholic Church, even if he never attended a single Mass in his whole life and has been Baptist since he could remember, is officially considered a heretic by the Catholic Church, is in a state of mortal sin, and will die with that mortal sin, and thus go to hell, because he will never believe the Pope is infallible.

And the only difference between the two of them is…one was baptized in the Catholic Church and the other was not.

That is the culmination of the official positions post-Vatican II put forward by the Catholic Church.

I think you’re misunderstanding the whole “condemned to hell if you don’t believe” belief. The logical reasoning for coming to this conclusion is as follows

• The First Commandment (You shall have no other God excpept THE God) states that you shall worship God and only God and obey what He teaches
• Now, we as Catholics believe in the Trinity, which makes Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father all one God
• So, with the truth of the Trinity, all commands that are made by God the Father and Christ are supposed to be followed and obeyed just as the 1st commandment states.
• This then leads to the fact that Christ established ONE Church, not thousands, and
  through HIS COMMANDS he gave power to Peter to be the Vicar of that Church.
• Since the Catholic Church has an UNBROKEN line of popes from Pope Francis to Pope St. Peter, that must mean that the Catholic Church is the true Church
• Therefore, whoever separates from, chooses freely not to believe, or ignores the power of the Church is ignoring the Divine Command of God, which is why we as Catholics can make a general assumption on what might happen to that person in the afterlife.

Now obviously there are other situations, and as JohnNC noted, the Church does address them.

BUT, what many people tend to forget, is that** it is God’s Judgment**, not ours.

 

[aemcpa]

I think the question has been answered thoroughly…so I am finished checking the thread and it can be closed.

All of the stuff that resolved the problem for you has been told to you several times in multiple different threads, btw. You just didn’t do the work to put all the pieces together - you just waited for somebody else to do it for you.

 

[Michael_Allen]

Hi Jinc,

I think you have to allow the Catholic Church to grapple with the relationship to non-Catholics. No doubt the understanding now is better, and more generous and understanding, than in the 16th and 17th centuries. Protestantism clearly is not the great evil that some once feared.

I get the impression you’d like to find clear black and white answers, but I suspect you won’t find them.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, You may very well be correct.

However, the fact remains that the official Catholic position appears to be, since VATICAN II, that a non-Catholic who truly and sincerely does not believe in any particular teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, is not condemned to hell when he dies because he didn’t have “full knowledge” that sin was a sin at all. For instance, if a Baptist believes the Pope is NOT infallible, he is not considered to have committed a mortal sin, because he didn’t have “full knowledge” that the teaching was correct…In other words, he didn’t believe it.

However, a person who was baptized in the Catholic Church, even if he never attended a single Mass in his whole life and has been Baptist since he could remember, is officially considered a heretic by the Catholic Church, is in a state of mortal sin, and will die with that mortal sin, and thus go to hell, because he will never believe the Pope is infallible.

And the only difference between the two of them is…one was baptized in the Catholic Church and the other was not.

That is the culmination of the official positions post-Vatican II put forward by the Catholic Church.

Thanks, I had a vague understanding that the Catholic Church views those individuals who were once Catholic in a different light than those who never were.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jinc,

I think you have to allow the Catholic Church to grapple with the relationship to non-Catholics. No doubt the understanding now is better, and more generous and understanding, than in the 16th and 17th centuries. **Protestantism clearly is not the great evil that some once feared. **
I get the impression you’d like to find clear black and white answers, but I suspect you won’t find them.

And there are some protestants who need to come to the same understanding about the Catholic Church, as well.

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

Excellent response again. I have to say, you have really settled the issue for me. Thanks so much for all of your effort…I know it was a lot of work!

Thanks again for your excellent informed explanations.

Justin

Parthos, I too have greatly enjoyed your responses to this thread indeed; very informed
exellent explanations.

Justin, great questions a lot of people ask as well.

 

[Third_Day]

Protestantism clearly is not the great evil that some once feared.

Protestantism is still a heresy. Let’s not forget that.
The Holy Spirit did not inspire Luther or Calvin or any of the doctrines of Protestantism that differ from the Catholic Church.

 

[JD27076]

If protestants are saved because they can’t commit a mortal sin due to the lack of full knowledge…then doesn’t that mean anyone outside the Church is saved?

If anyone is outside the Church, than that means that those can be saved because they dont know the full truth? That sounds a bit … wrong.

We have to put culpability on them for refusing to search into Christianity, or true Christianity… I do admit, their are some protestants that have received either little to no information regarding Catholicism, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t commit mortal sins. Maybe they were taught of the sinfulness by their protestant Church, therefore commit mortal sin and since their Church doesn’t offer the Sacrament of Reconciliation, they cannot be truly forgiven and die with that sin on their soul…

I find invincible ignorance as a very thin road to Travel to Heaven through Protestantism.

Yes, I want everyone to be saved, but the sad news is…the Road to heaven is a very narrow one…and only those within the Catholic Church is getting in, with a some exceptions, but not many…

Protestantism is a damnable heresy that is to be rebuked and condemned… Not praised for “teaching the Lord”… Thats not their job, its ours. .

I love my protestants brothers and sisters… I have nothing against Protestants… I have much against Protestantism and what it teaches. And I also have some disputes with how the Church teaches Protestant salvation.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Anyone on planet Earth is capable of committing a mortal sin because the natural law is imprinted on all human’s hearts.

Anyone on planet Earth who commits a mortal sin is in a state of mortal sin.

If they don’t repent and die in that state of mortal sin they go to Hell period!

Protestants can and do commit mortal sin–they know that the ten commandments should be followed for example. If they break the ten commandments and die unrepentant they go to Hell!

A Catholic who did the very same thing would also go to Hell!

The real question is what would God require for a Protestant who had no knowledge of the Catholic faith to be repentant?

God only punishes a person for what they know. God would determine if a Protestant was repentant or not because he would know their heart if they tried to repent by praying directly to Him.

The same would be true for other religions–even for people who professed no religion.

God would determine if they knew enough of the natural law to be guilty of mortal sin of not–if they were guilty then God would know if they were repentant or not.

But make no mistake–EVERYONE–Catholic and non Catholic on planet Earth is capable of committing mortal sin–dying in a state of mortal sin–and going to Hell!

Everyone is also capable of repenting of mortal sin and being restored by God to a state of grace and thereby if they die they go to Heaven.

If a person learns the Catholic faith and rejects it and God were to know if they knew it enough to be able to embrace it–prompted by the Holy Spirit–and then were to reject it–then that person would go to Hell if they rejected it and died unrepentant for rejecting it!

God would be able to judge that!

You can go to Heaven if you are Invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith and if you die in a state of grace. If you aren’t invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith you will be judged by what you do know of it after the holy Spirit prompts you to believe it.

If you know the Catholic practice of confession to a priest is correct and the Catholic faith is correct then you are SUBJECT to having that knowledge–regardless of whether you are formally joined to the Catholic Church or not.

If you were in RCIA for example and knew that and intended to confess to a Catholic priest at the end of RCIA and God knew that that was your intention then you wouldn’t go to Hell for not confessing mortal sins during that time interval before first confession–IF you did intend on confessing them at your first available opportunity,

The bottom line of all these questions is this: We as humans may not be able to judge whether a person commits a mortal sin or not because we may not know his heart and soul and we may not know his knowledge of right or wrong but God ALWAYS knows and God will perfectly–justly–and mercifully judge EVERYONE and EVERYONE will wind up in Heaven or Hell!

In Heaven EVERYONE will be Catholic.

There is a big difference between POSSIBILITY of going to Heaven and PROBABILITY of going to Heaven.

Most people wind up in Hell.

The Catholic Church offers EVERYONE the best chance of going to Heaven.

 

[jinc1019]

Anyone on planet Earth is capable of committing a mortal sin because the natural law is imprinted on all human’s hearts.

Anyone on planet Earth who commits a mortal sin is in a state of mortal sin.

If they don’t repent and die in that state of mortal sin they go to Hell period!

Protestants can and do commit mortal sin–they know that the ten commandments should be followed for example. If they break the ten commandments and die unrepentant they go to Hell!

A Catholic who did the very same thing would also go to Hell!

The real question is what would God require for a Protestant who had no knowledge of the Catholic faith to be repentant?

God only punishes a person for what they know. God would determine if a Protestant was repentant or not because he would know their heart if they tried to repent by praying directly to Him.

The same would be true for other religions–even for people who professed no religion.

God would determine if they knew enough of the natural law to be guilty of mortal sin of not–if they were guilty then God would know if they were repentant or not.

But make no mistake–EVERYONE–Catholic and non Catholic on planet Earth is capable of committing mortal sin–dying in a state of mortal sin–and going to Hell!

Everyone is also capable of repenting of mortal sin and being restored by God to a state of grace and thereby if they die they go to Heaven.

If a person learns the Catholic faith and rejects it and God were to know if they knew it enough to be able to embrace it–prompted by the Holy Spirit–and then were to reject it–then that person would go to Hell if they rejected it and died unrepentant for rejecting it!

God would be able to judge that!

You can go to Heaven if you are Invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith and if you die in a state of grace. If you aren’t invincibly ignorant of the Catholic faith you will be judged by what you do know of it after the holy Spirit prompts you to believe it.

If you know the Catholic practice of confession to a priest is correct and the Catholic faith is correct then you are SUBJECT to having that knowledge–regardless of whether you are formally joined to the Catholic Church or not.

If you were in RCIA for example and knew that and intended to confess to a Catholic priest at the end of RCIA and God knew that that was your intention then you wouldn’t go to Hell for not confessing mortal sins during that time interval before first confession–IF you did intend on confessing them at your first available opportunity,

The bottom line of all these questions is this: We as humans may not be able to judge whether a person commits a mortal sin or not because we may not know his heart and soul and we may not know his knowledge of right or wrong but God ALWAYS knows and God will perfectly–justly–and mercifully judge EVERYONE and EVERYONE will wind up in Heaven or Hell!

In Heaven EVERYONE will be Catholic.

There is a big difference between POSSIBILITY of going to Heaven and PROBABILITY of going to Heaven.

Most people wind up in Hell.

The Catholic Church offers EVERYONE the best chance of going to Heaven.

I think this response, based on what I have found, is a good representation of Catholic teaching.

 

[aemcpa]

I think this response, based on what I have found, is a good representation of Catholic teaching.

I’m glad to see you are finally able to grasp it after 100 people told you basically the same thing worded 50 different ways.

 

[steve_b]

Additionally, Cardinal Ratzinger said about Lutheran Eucharist:

“I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.”

In both cases, the term salvation is used. Salvation is not condemnation.

Jon

Jon,

Do you have the source of that quote by chance?

Thanks

 

[steve_b]

BUT, what many people tend to forget, is that** it is God’s Judgment**, not ours.

True.

However, given that the HS inspired the writers of scripture, to write what they did, we have been instructed of those things which draw judgement. That way, we can’t claim we weren’t warned in advance by God of things that draw judgement.

 

[jinc1019]

I thought this was relevant for this discussion…

It was mentioned earlier that Protestants can have their mortal sins forgiven without confession when there is an act of “Perfect Contrition.” But, according to the CCC, this only applies when the person seeking forgiveness plans immediately to go have their sins forgiven by a priest:

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51 (1822)

 

[JonNC]

Thanks, I had a vague understanding that the Catholic Church views those individuals who were once Catholic in a different light than those who never were.

Jon

Hi Steve,
It is from a letter he wrote to a Lutheran Bishop in Germany. It is in the following Lutheran Catholic document, paragraph 107.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

Also in Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, Pilgrim Fellowshiop of Faith.
amazon.com/Pilgrim-Fellowship-Faith-Church-Communion/dp/0898709636/ref=sr_1_49?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364773254&sr=1-49&keywords=ratzinger

Jon

 

[davidv]

I think this response, based on what I have found, is a good representation of Catholic teaching.

Except for the part that read “Most people wind up in Hell.” This is not Church teaching.

 

[steve_b]

Hi Steve,
It is from a letter he wrote to a Lutheran Bishop in Germany. It is in the following Lutheran Catholic document, paragraph 107.
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/koinonia-of-salvation.cfm

Also in Cardinal Ratzinger’s book, Pilgrim Fellowshiop of Faith.
amazon.com/Pilgrim-Fellowship-Faith-Church-Communion/dp/0898709636/ref=sr_1_49?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364773254&sr=1-49&keywords=ratzinger

Jon

Thanks for the reference.

Thinking outloud, since Cardinal Ratzinger became pope Benedict XVI, he could have made formal, any or all parts of the subjects approached in ecumenical dialogues between the Catholic Church and those seperated from her in particular Lutherans…true?

I’m thinking in particular, the subject of validity of the sacraments of Holy Orders, penance, Eucharist. During Benedict’s pontificate, are you aware of Benedict changing the Catholic Churches understanding on the validity of Lutheran Orders, Eucharist, Penance etc etc from merely ecumenical dialogue to formal Church understanding?