Protestants not believing in Hell

[Don_Ruggero]

Each of us has our own sins we are especially drawn to & the last thing we want to do is justify those sins as acceptable to God…
…Just because we like wallowing in whatever sin more than we want to serve God.
…Being gay isn’t a sin but celebrating buggery & encouraging others to participate in it is.

Any Church that ordains openly gay people who “live the gay lifestyle” is outside the Body of Christ…
…It isn’t Christian under the definition at all - It might as well be a chapter of the Eagles or Elks or whatever.
…Granted, people might feel comfortable at a Church like that but at the end of the day it isn’t a church at all.
…It’s simply a secular organization preaching a different gospel than the one once handed down.

The language employed is most regrettable and singularly ill-considered.

Our theological dialogue with, for example, the Episcopal Church in the United States most assuredly continues in spite of the decision that was taken by the general synod regarding the ordination of certain candidates for the clerical state and, most notably, elevations to the House of Bishops.

One who is Roman Catholic cannot in any way imply that Rome considers the Episcopal Church in the United States, or other bodies who are doing this, as not being Christian or “a secular organisation.” That is completely erroneous. The decision of how the Roman Catholic Church views its dialogue partners rests with Rome alone and readers of this forum, especially those who will read this who are not Catholic, should not be misled on where the decision rests and what the decision is.

The competent dicastery of the Holy See recognises the Episcopal Church in the United States (as does the US Conference of Catholic Bishops) and, for that matter, other parts of the Anglican Communion who are choosing this course as brothers and sisters, incorporated into the one Body of Christ through their baptism, whose church/ecclesial community has made a discernment which presents further challenges to our efforts that we are both working towards of full communion.

That is to answer your point because, in point of fact, no Catholic individual may presume to pass a negative judgement on any entity with which the Holy See is in dialogue; such a judgement would be at variance with the Holy See’s own proper and dispositive determination about the status of the dialogue partner.

Thus, for example, the work:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/anglican/upload/arcusa-2014-statement.pdf

I remark with sorrow that this thread was tragically derailed from the topic that the original poster put forward, which was an interesting topic, to an entirely different subject matter that resulted in Catholic participants attacking our partners in theological dialogue on an issue that is far removed from the original post’s topic.

 

[sudy]

Long.story.short.

I was chatting with a Protestant co-worker and when I said something about St. Michael, they waved me off and said they never heard of him. I told them he cast Lucifer from Heaven and they further waved me off saying there was no such thing as Lucifer. I was shocked when they further said there was no Hell that God doesn’t send anyone there because it doesn’t exist. When I asked where unrepenant sinners go, they told me that “everyone is saved”.

Fast forward to today.

I spoked to a cousin of my wife’s and they are Souther Baptist. In mentioning theological things, I mention Hell and they waved me off too. They told me that there is no such place as Hell and Lucifer is “just a ghost”. When I tell them Jesus spoke of Gehenna, they told me that it was an emotional Hell, not a literal one!

Anyone else encounter types like this lately?

I’ve heard a few people over the years state that they don’t believe in hell. To me it wouldn’t make much sense for there to be no hell. Hell would at the very least be a separation from God. I think the main cause, in the case of Christians, is that many people have stopped believing in the devil. People have influence one another over the years and many seem to have adopted secularised views. And it seems that many simply don’t understand how a loving God could ‘send’ anyone to hell.

I don’t think we can say this is simply a protestant view though. Some protestants do believe in hell whereas I think some Catholics don’t understand hell. In the Churches we’ve stopped preaching hell and damnation because it’s much more important to focus on God’s mercy and love first and foremost, yet this has somehow led some to the opinion that everyone is saved.

New Testament references to hell: catholic.com/quickquestions/where-is-hell-mentioned-in-the-bible
Early Church Fathers on hell: staycatholic.com/ecf_hell.htm

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic of the OP please

 

[JustaServant]

Long.story.short.

I was chatting with a Protestant co-worker and when I said something about St. Michael, they waved me off and said they never heard of him. I told them he cast Lucifer from Heaven and they further waved me off saying there was no such thing as Lucifer. I was shocked when they further said there was no Hell that God doesn’t send anyone there because it doesn’t exist. When I asked where unrepenant sinners go, they told me that “everyone is saved”.

Fast forward to today.

I spoked to a cousin of my wife’s and they are Souther Baptist. In mentioning theological things, I mention Hell and they waved me off too. They told me that there is no such place as Hell and Lucifer is “just a ghost”. When I tell them Jesus spoke of Gehenna, they told me that it was an emotional Hell, not a literal one!

Anyone else encounter types like this lately?

Never met a Southern Baptist who didn’t believe in Hell.

 

[JustaServant]

I consider “once saved, always saved” just a skip and a jump from not believing in hell.

Waaaaay over the top. OSAS is NOT a ‘skip and a jump’ to not believing in Hell.

 

[MikeFr]

A couple quick thoughts:

Statements like “I met a protestant who said…” are NOT valid when trying to determine anything IMO. The way to understand what another group believes is by studying the source of the belief via their statements of faith. “I met a southern baptist who said…” can’t be used to assess the theology of that group.

This is one of my pet peeves about one group looking at anothers’ faith. Catholics have been victims of this in spades. It is not valid to say “I met a Catholic who said…so that is what Catholics must believe it”. One should rather study the theology of the Catholic Church (the Catechism perhaps?) before deciding what Catholics actually believe.

The same goes for any group. That is my opinion.

Even people who converted from a Protestant group to Catholicism can be incorrect about what their former group believes and so they might not be an accurate source of information. Same thing goes for people who have converted from Catholicism to a Protestant group.

Take the time to study what other groups believe by consulting their statements of faith!

When I see comments made about “Once saved always saved” here I wonder if people making those comments really have any in depth knowledge about what that Once Saved Always Saved" really means. That is not the subject of this thread but it does not mean “I got saved once and now I can live my life doing whatever I please”.

Mike

 

[alwayswill]

A couple quick thoughts:

Statements like “I met a protestant who said…” are NOT valid when trying to determine anything IMO. The way to understand what another group believes is by studying the source of the belief via their statements of faith. “I met a southern baptist who said…” can’t be used to assess the theology of that group.

This is one of my pet peeves about one group looking at anothers’ faith. Catholics have been victims of this in spades. It is not valid to say “I met a Catholic who said…so that is what Catholics must believe it”. One should rather study the theology of the Catholic Church (the Catechism perhaps?) before deciding what Catholics actually believe.

The same goes for any group. That is my opinion.

Even people who converted from a Protestant group to Catholicism can be incorrect about what their former group believes and so they might not be an accurate source of information. Same thing goes for people who have converted from Catholicism to a Protestant group.

Take the time to study what other groups believe by consulting their statements of faith!

When I see comments made about “Once saved always saved” here I wonder if people making those comments really have any in depth knowledge about what that Once Saved Always Saved" really means. That is not the subject of this thread but it does not mean “I got saved once and now I can live my life doing whatever I please”.

Mike

“Take the time to study what other groups believe by consulting their statements of faith!”

I would make the distinction:
“Take the time to study what other groups** TEACH** by consulting their statements of faith!”

If you want to know what a particular group “believes”; then ask them.

That is what is done with the polls.
Whether it is Gallup, or Pew, or polls conducted by the Vatican itself;
If you want to know what a group believes; ask them ; ask a lot of them, in various ways at various times, by different polling companies.

And poll after poll after poll will show that Protestants are more likely to believe in Hell than do Catholics

 

[ComplineSanFran]

“Take the time to study what other groups believe by consulting their statements of faith!”

I would make the distinction:
“Take the time to study what other groups** TEACH** by consulting their statements of faith!”

If you want to know what a particular group “believes”; then ask them.

That is what is done with the polls.
Whether it is Gallup, or Pew, or polls conducted by the Vatican itself;
If you want to know what a group believes; ask them ; ask a lot of them, in various ways at various times, by different polling companies.

And poll after poll after poll will show that Protestants are more likely to believe in Hell than do Catholics

Yes! I agree with you completely, especially in your first point in what a faith tradition teaches is not always what most of their adherents believe.

And that certainly raises a number of questions, doesn’t it?

 

[rcwitness]

Statements like “I met a protestant who said…” are NOT valid when trying to determine anything IMO. The way to understand what another group believes is by studying the source of the belief via their statements of faith. “I met a southern baptist who said…” can’t be used to assess the theology of that group.

This is one of my pet peeves about one group looking at anothers’ faith. Catholics have been victims of this in spades. It is not valid to say “I met a Catholic who said…so that is what Catholics must believe it”. One should rather study the theology of the Catholic Church (the Catechism perhaps?) before deciding what Catholics actually believe.

The same goes for any group. That is my opinion.

Take the time to study what other groups believe by consulting their statements of faith!

When I see comments made about “Once saved always saved” here I wonder if people making those comments really have any in depth knowledge about what that Once Saved Always Saved" really means. That is not the subject of this thread but it does not mean “I got saved once and now I can live my life doing whatever I please”.

Mike

That’s fair enough, although it’s not always possible to know what every protestant’s statement of faith on various issues are. Many times it can be a moving target, trying to get a clear explanation of a stance on a given matter. Many “groups” only have a simple creed for their entire statement of faith, nothing more.

For example: what is your affiliated denomination’s position on the existence of hell? And since you specifically bring up an example of “Once Saved, Always Saved”, can you provide a legitimate statement of faith on that?

“Take the time to study what other groups believe by consulting their statements of faith!”

I would make the distinction:
“Take the time to study what other groups** TEACH** by consulting their statements of faith!”

If you want to know what a particular group “believes”; then ask them.

That is what is done with the polls.
Whether it is Gallup, or Pew, or polls conducted by the Vatican itself;
If you want to know what a group believes; ask them ; ask a lot of them, in various ways at various times, by different polling companies.

And poll after poll after poll will show that Protestants are more likely to believe in Hell than do Catholics

This is very different from what MikeFr was saying.

Can you provide the results of polls demonstrating that more protestant’s believe in the existence of hell than Catholics?

Yes! I agree with you completely, especially in your first point in what a faith tradition teaches is not always what most of their adherents believe.

And that certainly raises a number of questions, doesn’t it?

Are you suggesting that the majority of Catholics don’t believe in the existence of hell?

 

[alwayswill]

…
Can you provide the results of polls demonstrating that more protestant’s believe in the existence of hell than Catholics?
…

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/10/most-americans-believe-in-heaven-and-hell/
and here

thearda.com/quickstats/qs_72_p.asp

Protestants are more likely to believe in Hell than Catholics.

 

[rcwitness]

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/10/most-americans-believe-in-heaven-and-hell/
and here

thearda.com/quickstats/qs_72_p.asp

Protestants are more likely to believe in Hell than Catholics.

The result of those polls are unfortunate, if accurate, for sure. The first one is only the United States, while I’m not sure if the second is “world wide”.

But I maintain, that we are not a religion of the majority, or the heterodox opinions of some members. The Church of God is NOT a democracy. Catholics either assent to the faith declared through her Magisterium, or they dissent to their heterodox positions.

We are a religion based on Revelation from Jesus, through the Apostolic Tradition handed down through Scripture and Magisterial Teaching.

The Catholic faith has always affirmed the real existence of an eternal hell for those who Jesus has judged as rejecting the love of God.

 

[rcwitness]

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/10/most-americans-believe-in-heaven-and-hell/
and here

thearda.com/quickstats/qs_72_p.asp

Protestants are more likely to believe in Hell than Catholics.

I will say that in response to the OP thread, this is a good point. That many, if not more, Catholics are denying the existence of hell. How that is, is beyond my understanding!

The Catholic Church has always (long before the existence of the United States) affirmed the reality of hell and it’s permanence. Why so many Catholic members believe it is a matter of opinion is very strange to me. They neither know the Scriptures or the Teachings of their leadership.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I will say that in response to the OP thread, this is a good point. That many, if not more, Catholics are denying the existence of hell. How that is, is beyond my understanding!

The Catholic Church has always (long before the existence of the United States) affirmed the reality of hell and it’s permanence. Why so many Catholic members believe it is a matter of opinion is very strange to me. They neither know the Scriptures or the Teachings of their leadership.

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and, the lake of fire; and if one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” Revelation 20:14-15. It certainly sounds to me like there’s a hell, and it’s in scripture.

 

[rcwitness]

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and, the lake of fire; and if one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire” Revelation 20:14-15. It certainly sounds to me like there’s a hell, and it’s in scripture.

So why are so many Catholics in denial of this??? And why do Catholics worry about Protestant brothers when we have a worse situation in our own house???

 

[alwayswill]

So why are so many Catholics in denial of this??? And why do Catholics worry about Protestant brothers when we have a worse situation in our own house???

As to the “denial”:
Micheal Voris/ Church Militant as posted multiple commentaries on that very subject.
Their website has a search feature.
He puts the blame on Church leadership.

Others while discussing the denial of other Catholic teaching shift the cause elsewhere
I am quoting Leon J. Podles (a member of the Fellowship of Catholic Scholars.) not Gallup
podles.org/dialogue/183-183.htm
from 2009

"The Gallup Poll, as Bill Cork pointed out, has revealed that Church-going Catholics are far more likely that Church-going non-Catholics (almost all Protestant) to accept immoral behavior.

I do not find this surprising. Other polls I have seen over the years reveal similar patterns.

**Why **are Church-going Protestants better able to resist accepting prevalent secular attitudes to morality?
Catholics once submitted to the teaching authority of the Church; many Catholics, even those who regularly attend church, have clearly rejected that, and have nothing to replace it except the standards of American society.

Perhaps Protestantism, built upon a veneration of the Bible, has been better able to resist the moral acids of secularism.

Catholics claim that the living authority of the magisterium is better able to meet moral challenges, but this does not in fact seem to be the case.
Roma locuta est, but very few Catholics are listening.

When the Bible speaks, (and it does speak clearly on many issues) many Protestants listen."​

this should be an eye opener
religioustolerance.org/virgin_b7.htm
"The pollsters reported that:

    "Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s historical emphasis on the theological importance of Mary, Catholics in the poll were somewhat less likely than Protestants to believe in the virgin birth. **Theologians attributed this to the doctrine in many Protestant churches that the Bible must be accepted as literal truth."**

---

so to summarize the answers to the question: “Why are so many Catholics in denial of this?”

Lack of understanding of the teaching of the the Catholic Church (Scripture and Tradition) because of poor leadership

 

[rcwitness]

As to the “denial”:
Micheal Voris/ Church Militant as posted multiple commentaries on that very subject.
Their website has a search feature.
He puts the blame on Church leadership.

Others while discussing the denial of other Catholic teaching shift the cause elsewhere
I am quoting Leon J. Podles (a member of the Fellowship of Catholic Scholars.) not Gallup
podles.org/dialogue/183-183.htm
from 2009

"The Gallup Poll, as Bill Cork pointed out, has revealed that Church-going Catholics are far more likely that Church-going non-Catholics (almost all Protestant) to accept immoral behavior.

I do not find this surprising. Other polls I have seen over the years reveal similar patterns.

**Why **are Church-going Protestants better able to resist accepting prevalent secular attitudes to morality?
Catholics once submitted to the teaching authority of the Church; many Catholics, even those who regularly attend church, have clearly rejected that, and have nothing to replace it except the standards of American society.

Thank you for the research! I am more concerned to focus my efforts of strengthening the faith of my immediate brothers and sisters in the faith, than in the denominations. “First remove the beam in your own eye…” I appreciate your “table turning” response.

Perhaps Protestantism, built upon a veneration of the Bible, has been better able to resist the moral acids of secularism.

I would agree that a majority of Protestants MIGHT practice reading Scripture more than Catholics. Perhaps many Catholic’s do not read outside of Mass. Yet, i strongly disagree what you imply… That Catholicism is not built upon veneration of Scripture. From the Catechism:

The Church has always venerated Divine Scripture as she has has venerated the Lord’s body

Catholics claim that the living authority of the magisterium is better able to meet moral challenges, but this does not in fact seem to be the case.
Roma locuta est, but very few Catholics are listening.

It is… But it does not garauntee genuine conversion.

When the Bible speaks, (and it does speak clearly on many issues) many Protestants listen."

As a lector, i am very aware of the Scripture’s role and voice in our worship! ​

this should be an eye opener
religioustolerance.org/virgin_b7.htm
"The pollsters reported that:

    "Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s historical emphasis on the theological importance of Mary, Catholics in the poll were somewhat less likely than Protestants to believe in the virgin birth. **Theologians attributed this to the doctrine in many Protestant churches that the Bible must be accepted as literal truth."**

---

so to summarize the answers to the question: “Why are so many Catholics in denial of this?”

Lack of understanding of the teaching of the the Catholic Church (Scripture and Tradition) because of poor leadership

 

[rcwitness]

this should be an eye opener
religioustolerance.org/virgin_b7.htm
"The pollsters reported that:

    "Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s historical emphasis on the theological importance of Mary, Catholics in the poll were somewhat less likely than Protestants to believe in the virgin birth. **Theologians attributed this to the doctrine in many Protestant churches that the Bible must be accepted as literal truth."**

That is absolutely bizarre… to the point that I seriously question the accuracy of the polls. For Catholics to doubt the Virginity of Mary even with Jesus!?! Come on…

 

[sudy]

1999: A poll of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican priests, and Protestant ministers/pastors in the UK found that about 25% did not believe in the virgin birth.

It doesn’t say how many of these 103 people were Catholic priests, nor does it say, that of these 103 priests/ministers, that the Catholic Priests are the ones who voted against the virgin birth.

2003-DEC: The Scripps Howard News Service and Ohio University polled 1,054 American adults and found that:
bullet 60% said they “absolutely believe” in the virgin birth.
bullet 16% mostly believe.
bullet 19% do not believe.
bullet 5% are uncertain. 7

The pollsters reported that:

“Despite the Roman Catholic Church’s historical emphasis on the theological importance of Mary, Catholics in the poll were somewhat less likely than Protestants to believe in the virgin birth. Theologians attributed this to the doctrine in many Protestant churches that the Bible must be accepted as literal truth.”

How many Catholics were actually in this poll??

It’s interesting how people can manipulate figures to make them say what they want them to.

 

[rcwitness]

It doesn’t say how many of these 103 people were Catholic priests, nor does it say, that of these 103 priests/ministers, that the Catholic Priests are the ones who voted against the virgin birth.

How many Catholics were actually in this poll??

It’s interesting how people can manipulate figures to make them say what they want them to.

Very manipulated!

 

[blanchardman]

Long.story.short.

I was chatting with a Protestant co-worker and when I said something about St. Michael, they waved me off and said they never heard of him. I told them he cast Lucifer from Heaven and they further waved me off saying there was no such thing as Lucifer. I was shocked when they further said there was no Hell that God doesn’t send anyone there because it doesn’t exist. When I asked where unrepenant sinners go, they told me that “everyone is saved”.

Fast forward to today.

I spoked to a cousin of my wife’s and they are Souther Baptist. In mentioning theological things, I mention Hell and they waved me off too. They told me that there is no such place as Hell and Lucifer is “just a ghost”. When I tell them Jesus spoke of Gehenna, they told me that it was an emotional Hell, not a literal one!

Anyone else encounter types like this lately?

Have I encountered anyone like these? YES!
I sat down 28th a JW paster to discuss Jesus. I told her I had evidence of His devinity. I then took a page out my tablet and placed it on the table. It was a list of bible verses front and back. She said " no, that can’t be"( or something like that). Picked up her stuff and left without ever looking at the paper.