protestants not confessing to a priest

[SteveVH]

I didn’t mean for it to be offensive. I’m sorry if it was. But the incredulous tone expressed towards me by one poster made me a little bitter, that’s all.

Obviously you are referring to me. I’m sorry if you find me incredulous but it is a bit frustrating when we read the words of Christ himself and you deny the unambiguous meaning of those words based upon your preconceived ideas. As I have demonstrated several times, Christ specifically gave the power to forgive sins to those he placed over the Church he founded. He also gave the power to bind and loose which extends even beyond the forgiveness of sins. The Church has the power to bind us to doctrine and moral behavior as well. The voice of the Church is the voice of Christ. It is not a man-made organization, but rather a divine institution which Christ promised would be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit and with which he would remain unitl the end of time. It is Christ who forgives me and Christ who feeds me, all through his priests to whom he gave the power and authority to act in his place.

My intention here has not been to offend you. I cannot stand by, however, when one speaks of my Church out of ignorance as if it were the truth. If you are truly interested in finding the truth about which the Catholic Church teaches I would recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. That is the official teaching document on every aspect of our faith and covers “authority”, “forgiveness of sins” and “binding and loosing” in great detail. I don’t care if one chooses to disagree with the truth of what our Church teaches, but we don’t get anywhere when what the Church teaches is misstated and misrepresented.

God bless.

 

[Rhema7]

For those who are saved, Jesus Christ is our High Priest. Hebrews 4:14-15

When Jesus gave His life on the cross a new covenant was established. Hebrews 10:16-21
There is no longer a separation between God and his people, because Jesus broke down that partition. Because that partition is broken down we now have direct access to go to the Lord. Since we have direct access to the Lord and we no longer live according to law, we confess to the Lord. Ephesians 2:13-18

 

[SteveVH]

For those who are saved, Jesus Christ is our High Priest. Hebrews 4:14-15

When Jesus gave His life on the cross a new covenant was established. Hebrews 10:16-21
There is no longer a separation between God and his people, because Jesus broke down that partition. Because that partition is broken down we now have direct access to go to the Lord. Since we have direct access to the Lord and we no longer live according to law, we confess to the Lord. Ephesians 2:13-18

Well, this verse says nothing about confessing your sins. It is speaking of the salvific nature of Christ’s sacrifice that brought mankind back into the famly of God. We are no longer separated and through him have access to the Father.

And, by the way, confessing to the Lord is exactly what we are doing when we enter into the sacrament of Reconciliation. But you seem to have avoided the very words of Christ of which we are discussing:

“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:21-23)

I would be interested in your take on the meaning of these words.

Thanks.

 

[Nabooru]

If a person preaches the gospel to another, and is successful, then that person’s sins are forgiven. If a person preaches the gospel to another and that gospel is rejected, we are forced to admit that their sins are not forgiven.

Protestants prefer to point out that there are many more indicators in the Bible that there is only one Mediator between man and God - Christ - and only one means to be forgiven: by believing in Him. To confess our sins to another as a sort of middle-man between God and man is, in our estimation, redundant. I personally would feel more comfortable confessing my sins to God Himself, rather than through a priest to God, since I cannot look inside that priest’s heart for sincerity and he cannot look in mine for the same.

 

[Nabooru]

As another take on those verses, interpret it like this: “What sins you forgive others, you will be forgiven yourself. What sins you do not forgive others, you will not have forgiven for yourself.”

The one overwhelming message in Scripture is that sins are forgiven through Christ. We are fallen creatures incapable of pleasing God and being perfect on our own virtues. Repentance is in the heart, not simply spoken with the mouth. And, to Protestants, no amount of personal confession could ever cover all our sins. So it is through Christ alone that our sins are covered.

 

[mark_a]

If I go to a priest, what if he decides not to grant me absolution, no matter how sorry I am?

Are you kidding me?

 

[mark_a]

As another take on those verses, interpret it like this: “What sins you forgive others, you will be forgiven yourself. What sins you do not forgive others, you will not have forgiven for yourself.”

That just doesn’t fit well with the surrounding text.

The one overwhelming message in Scripture is that sins are forgiven through Christ.

And of course God has an extraordinary way to forgive Protestants, because their preachers do not have authority to absolve in the ordinary way.

Repentance is in the heart, not simply spoken with the mouth.

Duh!! And spoken repentance is much more humbling than secretive repentance.

I find it odd that so many dash-Catholics want the eucharist confected by their preacher, want to be confirmed by their preacher, want to be married by their preacher, want to be blessed by their preacher, want annointing of the sick done by their preacher, but won’t touch the sacrament of reconcilliation with a 10 foot pole.

 

[SteveVH]

If a person preaches the gospel to another, and is successful, then that person’s sins are forgiven. If a person preaches the gospel to another and that gospel is rejected, we are forced to admit that their sins are not forgiven.

This is just another way of saying “once saved, always saved”. I didn’t realize that Anglo-Catholics believed this, or do you reject your own faith community’s teaching on this subject?

Protestants prefer to point out that there are many more indicators in the Bible that there is only one Mediator between man and God - Christ - and only one means to be forgiven: by believing in Him.

Well, there are literally thousands upon thousands of Protestant faith communities out there. Are you speaking for all of them? Please show me a Bible verse that says that your sins are forgiven simply by believing in Christ. Trust me, Satan and his demons believe in Christ and they will spend eternity in hell.

To confess our sins to another as a sort of middle-man between God and man is, in our estimation, redundant.

Christ came for the express purpose of saving us from our sins. That is why he was sent. If you will look closely at what Christ said in John 20:21-23, you will find these words: “As the Father has sent me, so I send you”. They were commanded to do as he had done. He then breathes on them. The only other time that God breathed upon man was when he created him. Something very significant is happening here. Only after breathing upon them and commanding them to do what he did does he impart the authority to forgive sins. Christ was no longer going to be on earth. He sent his Apostles, and by necessity their successors, to do what he did; to forgive sins under his authority.

“This, as always, is God’s doing; it is he who, through Christ, has reconciled us to himself, and allowed us to minister this reconciliation of his to others.” (2 Cor 5:18)

I personally would feel more comfortable confessing my sins to God Himself, rather than through a priest to God

So would I, but our degree of comfort has nothing to do with the means that Christ gave us to receive forgiveness.

I cannot look inside that priest’s heart for sincerity and he cannot look in mine for the same.

The priest does not have to be sincere (though I have never found one that was not) in order for the sacrament to be effective. Nor does he have to know your heart. It is God who forgives (through the priest) and God knows your heart. If you are not sincere and knowingly hold anything back the sacrament has no effect. The priest is there to impart the sacrament. The effect of the sacrament is dependant upon one’s interior disposition to receive it.

God bless.

 

[SteveVH]

As another take on those verses, interpret it like this: “What sins you forgive others, you will be forgiven yourself. What sins you do not forgive others, you will not have forgiven for yourself.”

The one overwhelming message in Scripture is that sins are forgiven through Christ. We are fallen creatures incapable of pleasing God and being perfect on our own virtues. Repentance is in the heart, not simply spoken with the mouth. And, to Protestants, no amount of personal confession could ever cover all our sins. So it is through Christ alone that our sins are covered.

Wow! You continue to twist Christ’s words in any direction just as long as they do not mean what he actually said. “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven and whose sins you retain, they are retained”. I don’t know how much more plainly he could have stated it. :banghead:

 

[Rhema7]

Well, this verse says nothing about confessing your sins. It is speaking of the salvific nature of Christ’s sacrifice that brought mankind back into the famly of God. We are no longer separated and through him have access to the Father.

And, by the way, confessing to the Lord is exactly what we are doing when we enter into the sacrament of Reconciliation. But you seem to have avoided the very words of Christ of which we are discussing:

“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:21-23)

I would be interested in your take on the meaning of these words.

Thanks.

Those verses confirm the reasons why we go to Jesus Christ, for He is our High Priest.

Hebrews 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 10:16-21
After Jesus we no longer need a priest to make an atonement for ours sins for forgiveness, as mentioned in Leviticus 4:20. Jesus has now abolished that old covenant and established a new covenant.

Ephesians 2:13-18
Having direct access to God, we don’t need a priest for forgiveness of our sins.

Those verses converge to a point: Jesus did away with the old covenant, that old covenant where only a priest had access to God. A new covenant has been established whereby believers (saved people) have direct access to God.

What does all of that have to do with confession? A priest is no longer the one between God and a person. Because of Jesus we now have direct access to God. To him we go. To him we confess.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

The passage of John 20:21-23 is not an authorization to the apostles to pardon sin. Jesus was sending out His apostles to declare the terms of forgiveness (the gospel), upon what the Lord had already established. The absolution of sin is only in God, it is not authorized to man. In Isaiah 43:25 it says, I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

All throughout the scripture it declares that God is the forgiver [absolver] of sins, not man. In Ephesians 1:3,7 it says, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

God bless.

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ is the One High Priest, but the priesthood acts in His person, including the Holy Father. They and the pope are not semi gods, but simply instruments of His priesthood.

It is Christ to Whom we approach in the confessional, and it is Christ Himself who absolves us of sin, because only God Himself can forgive sin.

I think certain Protestants hear the same spin again and again and again, that they overlook Christ’s institution of the Sacrament of Penance…at the evening of the Resurrection, when He appeared to the apostles and gave them the power to absolve sin…and to bind and loosen, and this was not intended only for them, but for their successors.

You have to take into context as well the event of the Resurrection, and the Lord’s timing of this great sacrament. If this was a more debatable issue, He could have done so in a more obscure setting with multiple layers of interpretations.

But Christ did not come to give the apostles the mandate to forgive sins, to bind and loosen…He came within 24 hours of His resurrection, breaking the power of sin and death. With this breaking of sin, He then came to them to give them His presence and power to do so. There is nothing ambiguous about this.

And – we always have our blind spots. The Church shepherds us in our growth in union with God. We cannot guide ourselves with just Scripture, because if we use only Sola Scriptura and our own personal interpretation outside what the Apostles taught us, then you are placing yourselves in misinterpreting and condemning that which you do not understand.

 

[Nabooru]

There are cases in which priests have denied absolution, such as in cases of women who have been sterilized. Basically saying, “I don’t care whether you feel sorry or not. I’m not granting forgiveness for that sin. Period.” Now is that woman going to hell because some particular priest wouldn’t absolve her? What if she just went to another priest who did?

It is only up to God to forgive in any case, and He is not bound to the absolution formally granted by members of the clergy. I find it highly unlikely that that woman could enter God’s presence at the end of her life and be told, “I’m sorry, but because that priest refused to absolve you, I can’t let you in.”

You accuse me of twisting Christ’s words. I could accuse you of the same - that you accept the Catholic interpretation just because the church demanded you do so. You assume that Christ spoke to all future church hierarchy, when Christ makes no mention of priests or bishops. There are a number of alternative explanations. I personally feel that - and I say this honestly - that the church interprets the verses in that way, making what applied to the apostles apply to all future church leaders, no matter how corrupt or far separated, in order to make God’s authority their own. It simply does not make sense that God would give His Divine Power to humans. Therefore a different interpretation must at least be considered.

The Orthodox do not see confession in such a way, and they are not condemned by the RCC for it. Nor do they see Peter as having particular successors. I am inclined towards their view.

 

[pablope]

If a person preaches the gospel to another, and is successful, then that person’s sins are forgiven. If a person preaches the gospel to another and that gospel is rejected, we are forced to admit that their sins are not forgiven.

Protestants prefer to point out that there are many more indicators in the Bible that there is only one Mediator between man and God - Christ - and only one means to be forgiven: by believing in Him.

 

[Nabooru]

Well, if this is so…then why do you even need to confess you sins everynight?

 

[plainatheart71]

There is no reason to confess to anyone but God. Although if we have hurt another person, we need to go to that person and ask for forgiveness.

The scriptures don’t say anything about confessing our sins to another human being. I love going to the Father many, many times a day. What a blessing!

I am currently considered Protestant as we have not gone through RCIA and converted. But we are working toward that. However, yes there is a scripture if you want to go Sola Scriptura for confessing to someone other than God.

James 5:16: “Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

I’ve spent 41 years in the Protestant movement where unless you go the altar or in for counselling you don’t confess to anyone what your sins are. And I have seen the spiritual damage that this brings about. My father-n-law who is a Protestant minister has said more than one, “I am accountable only to God. I don’t need to confess to anyone but Him.” Yet Protestant churches have accountability partners? But it’s a blasphemy to go in and confess to a priest? I don’t hardly think so. Personally I believe that someone who is adamantly against confessing their sins to a man of God is a person who likes to hold on to their sin and may be too ashamed to tell another person. I’ve been there and done that in the past. Now, I cannot wait to go to confession.

 

[Nabooru]

Indeed this is so! And so the RCC does not have a monopoly on confession and what it entails.

Also, we are enjoined to confess our sins to one another, not just to a priest. Can a priest confess to a layperson?
[/quote]

 

[SaintPatrick333]

Please nobody report this comment as it isn’t meant to be a jab at protestants. But in terms of confessing their sins to a confessor, it doesn’t really matter does it? Protestant churches do not have valid Apostolic Succession, so their ministers don’t have that kind of authority given by Christ. I mean just as we Catholics know our protestant brothers and sisters who are ministers, can’t consecrate the hosts of the Eucharist, the same would apply for confession would it not? Only Priests ordained through valid Apostolic Succession can act In persona Christi in such a faculty.

 

[pablope]

I am not a OSAS believer. Faith without works is dead because it is simply a nominal faith. We repent of our sins because we sincerely feel sorry for going against the will of God. To not feel sorry would indicate that the Holy Spirit is not within us.

 

[GKC]

Please nobody report this comment as it isn’t meant to be a jab at protestants. But in terms of confessing their sins to a confessor, it doesn’t really matter does it? Protestant churches do not have valid Apostolic Succession, so their ministers don’t have that kind of authority given by Christ. I mean just as we Catholics know our protestant brothers and sisters who are ministers, can’t consecrate the hosts of the Eucharist, the same would apply for confession would it not? Only Priests ordained through valid Apostolic Succession can act In persona Christi in such a faculty.

Your logic is in keeping with that of* Apostolicae Curae* (which has been sort of a hobby of mine, for these past 15 years), and is the proper conclusion for an RC to affirm.

You will understand that Anglicans (and I must admit that Nabooru is an excellent example of the “motley crew” of Anglicanism; I don’t recognize his position at all) are not bound to affirm the judgment on Apostolicae Curae at all. Being Anglicans, that is. Anglicans usually would agree with your last sentence, though.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[SteveVH]

Those verses confirm the reasons why we go to Jesus Christ, for He is our High Priest.

Hebrews 4:14-15
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 10:16-21
After Jesus we no longer need a priest to make an atonement for ours sins for forgiveness, as mentioned in Leviticus 4:20. Jesus has now abolished that old covenant and established a new covenant.

Ephesians 2:13-18
Having direct access to God, we don’t need a priest for forgiveness of our sins.

Those verses converge to a point: Jesus did away with the old covenant, that old covenant where only a priest had access to God. A new covenant has been established whereby believers (saved people) have direct access to God.

What does all of that have to do with confession? A priest is no longer the one between God and a person. Because of Jesus we now have direct access to God. To him we go. To him we confess.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5

The passage of John 20:21-23 is not an authorization to the apostles to pardon sin. Jesus was sending out His apostles to declare the terms of forgiveness (the gospel), upon what the Lord had already established. The absolution of sin is only in God, it is not authorized to man. In Isaiah 43:25 it says, I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

All throughout the scripture it declares that God is the forgiver [absolver] of sins, not man. In Ephesians 1:3,7 it says, Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

God bless.

You have only shown that you have no understanding of the sacrament. Of course it is God who forgives our sins. I have stated that very thing more than a few times righ here in this thread. And the means he uses to forgive our sins is the sacrament of Reconciliation. The priest has no power on his own to forgive sins. He is an instrument of God’s grace and sits in the place of Christ. He forgives us in the name of God, not in his own name. There is no forgiveness except through the grace of God, but it is that same God who handed down this authority to his Church; Christ’s presence on earth. The words of Christ in John 20: 21-23 are unmistakable in their meaning, as are the words of Christ in Matthew 16:19 concerning binding and loosing. It is you who are following the traditions of men in denying that this is the case.