R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Same question I asked Hisalone (who has yet to answer by the way)
God bless you
- Status
R
RNRobert
Guest
I was a fundamentalist for a time, and the people I attended church with did not think Catholics were Christians.
Maybe some fundamentalists do consider Catholics Christian, but by and large, most of whom I’m met, and the fundamentalist preachers I’ve listened to or read do not.
Additionally, some of the fundamentalists on this forum have called me a “slave of Rome.”
J
Janet1983
Guest
I do consider many of the people in the churches Christian… may they be Protestant or Catholic…
In the sense that there are Christians in these churches I would consider them Christian (including the CC). THE Church however are neither of these institutions, because the Lord’s Church is made up of all the true Christians whether they are Catholic or Protestant. If Jesus Christ is truly Lord over their lives they are Christian…
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Janet, why can’t you give me a clear answer? If someone is Catholic and adheres to Catholic doctrines, do you consider that person Christian? I have found that when some one says, “I believe there are Christian in the Catholic Church” they are really saying, “there may be Christians in the Catholic Church, but they are such despite the Catholic Church”. i.e. the only Christians in the Catholic Church are non-Catholics.
So, can you answer my question?
God bless you
R
RNRobert
Guest
In other words, if a Catholic is a Christian, he or she is one not because of their Catholic faith, but in spite of it…
J
Janet1983
Guest
This one here was close and I didn’t even have to write it:
It’s close… I wouldn’t formulate it that way…
I would say that those Catholics who are Christians are Christians apart from the fact that they are Catholic… For whatever reason the words “in spite” leave that impression with me that “even though” was meant…
Anybody sorting himself into one of the categories we have concerning the Christian religion may or may not be a true Christian and truly following the Lord. Some churches might make it easier on the person and some might make it harder on the person, but God’s action is most important in this so that I can and will not declare that the CC has anything to do with leading people to Christ or keeping them away from Him.
There are however doctrines I completely disagree with from a Biblical point of view (and in that I do not even limit myself to the CC)… Those things might mislead people, but if God wants to save them He will save them and if He wants to do that within the CC he will… If He wants to do that within the SBC He will do exactly that too and if He wants to save them through the work of a missionary who points out the importance of having Jesus Christ in one’s life He will do exactly that.
God is Sovereign and He is not bound by any earthly institution… Only the true Church of Christ is important, not our man-made institutions…
G
greggy53
Guest
This division between Christians is a horrible thing. I went to a mixed faith wedding recently. An old friend of mine’s daughter was marrying a Catholic boy. The wedding took place in a Catholic Church with a Catholic priest (No Mass, just the wedding service). There was only a handle of people on the bride side, her immediate family. Why? I found out that none of their friends (Apostolics) would come to the wedding because it was in a Catholic church. These so-called Chirstians had no Christain Charity, not even for one of their own. The reading at the service said it all:
“And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not chairty, I am nothing”.
“And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not chairty, I am nothing”.
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Yes Janet, I figured this was your position. It is good though to know for sure.
Of course you would Janet. *Your *faith cannot allow the Catholic Church to be Christian. You can glance over all the differences found within Protestantism and chalk them up as “secondary matters” but your faith will not allow this same attitude towards Catholics. I have to wonder Janet, why you are here at all? If you do not believe that we are Christian, why are you here? It can’t be for fellowship, so what is it?
It is interesting though to hear this from a proponent of a faith alone salvation. Faith alone is enough to save, you will tell me, however when it comes to Catholics it is faith plus reject the doctrines that Janet does not agree with.
That’s because that is what the statement implies. Much like your rewording of it implies the same:
You substituted “in-spite of” with “apart from” … Your position is that those Catholics who you think are Christian are Christian in-spite of (apart from) of their Catholics faith. Or in other words, they are not Catholic at all.
God bless
R
Robbinson
Guest
What a powerful verse, and what a tragedy within the body of Christ. Lets all pray, right now (Protestant and Catholic alike) for unity in the body and love among brothers and sisters in Christ. There is nothing more important and our differences (while not insignificant, (although often perceived as more significant than they are based upon misunderstanding and prejudice) are nothing compared to the bond we have in Christ.
Blessings,
Brian
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Brain, God bless you. You can see with my dialog with Janet why this appeal of your is impossible. If Catholics are not Christian then there is no unity unless they cease to be Catholic. Let us thank God that this sentiment seems to be the opinion of a small and uniformed (even if they seem to talk the loudest), minority and not found throughout all Protestant denominations.
God bless you
A
apromisemade
Guest
Modern day Saint Peter?
Saint Peter…Saint Peter…
Isn’t that the guy who thrice denied ever knowing the master he had just sworn up and down he would sooner die then abandon?
Saint Peter…Saint Peter…
Isn’t that the guy who thrice denied ever knowing the master he had just sworn up and down he would sooner die then abandon?
R
RNRobert
Guest
Probably to rescue us poor, ignorant Mary worshipping idolators from the “Whore of Babylon” so we can be “saved.”
Of course, we don’t worship Mary or statues, but just try telling a fundamentalist that…
R
RNRobert
Guest
R
Robbinson
Guest
Janet - I agree with this last quote, but by your own standard, how do you not know (or why do you not think) that your own denomination is not a “man made institution”.
The irony is that the Catholic Church today in fact appears to be the only Church which can trace its doctrine and teachings back to the earliest disciples of the apostles through the historical record and writings of early Church fathers. Denominations which look to scripture alone (a doctrine not stated in “scripture alone”, ironically) do not have that “pedigree” and appear more like “man made institituions” than the Church which as the benefit of apostolic succession. Would you mind responding to that? It would be useful to understand your perspecptive and where, in scripture, you think it tells us to rely on “scripture alone”.
Thanks in advance.
Blessings,
Brian
A
apromisemade
Guest
Okay, that made absolutely no sense.
But I will attempt to respond regardless.
Jesus gave Peter the keys to his church. Peter was a man, right?
The pope and the clergy, they’re all men.
Everyone who attends mass and church functions, they’re people.
The CC is the Church Christ founded through Peter, I’m not going to argue with that. But the Church as we know it and experience it on a day to day basis is made up of people.
Without people, the Church would have a pretty difficult time doing much of anything in this life.
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Man-made* and made-up-of are two different things. Christ founded a Church, there is no denying this whether you believe it is the Catholic Church or not. His Church is not man-made.
*
“I will build my church…”*
God bless you
R
Robbinson
Guest
Amen and Amen. This has been a helpful thread.
Jesus did establish a church - both an invisible church of believers, but also a visible Church of authority, where disputes could/would be resolved led by the apostles who were given express authority to forgive sins (suggesting even believers must have their sins forgiven - e.g., justificaiton is an ongoing process) and to bind and loose.
That Church exists today in the Catholic Church. I believe that . . . now I will have to figure out how to deal with that.
In the meantime, even for those Christians who do not believe this, we must focus on unity in the body, love among all Christians (this was Jesus’ personal prayer and desire).
Blessings,
Brian
J
Janet1983
Guest
I apply the same standard to all Christian faith groups as you so knowingly excluded…
I described in detail in my text (and that is my point of view and assessment of the situation) that there are true Christians in all faith groups. I do not even doubt that there are people acting like Christians in all of them… I would never declare that there are no Christians in the CC and I will not declare that everybody in every Protestant denomination is a true Christian.
All churches, apart from what they may call themselves do have true Christians and people acting like Christians (and some who just call themselves Christians and don’t even act like it).
The only Church that does not have these is simply the true Church of Jesus Christ which is made up of all true Christians and sincere followers to the lead of Jesus Christ.
J
Janet1983
Guest
As I said repeatedly… Modern churches and denominations are in that sense (and only in that sense) irrelevant. The only relevant church is the true Church of Jesus Christ which is comprised out of all those who take heed to His commands because He saved them and because He is the Lord over their lives. The true Church is the assembly of true believers and true followers of Jesus Christ who is our Saviour.
I do agree that there are still many lost people even in the fold of the Protestant churches.
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Do you not believe that the AoG church is Christian? Do you believe the Lutheran Church is Christian? Do you believe the Methodist Church is Christian? Do you believe that the Presbyterian Church is Christian? If you answered yes to any of these than you do not hold the same standard towards Protestant Churches as you do towards the Catholic Church since there are things within all of them that a southern Baptist is going to disagree with.
Yes and you described “in detail” that those who you consider Christian with in the Catholic Church are not Catholic. Is someone who holds to the Catholic faith Christian in your eyes?
No but you will declare that if they are Catholic they cannot be Christian. Correct me if I am wrong Janet please. Are those Catholics who affirm the Catholic faith Christian?
God bless
- Status