Protestants: please stop using the label "Bible-believing"

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Hi there!

The early Church was indeed “catholic.” However, this should be differentiated from the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, and this is well-known, there are “Catholic” churches which are not Roman, such as the Eastern and Greek Orthodox. These churches are not under the pope for they have their own patriarchs. The problem arose when the Bishop of Rome declared himself pope and infallible to the exclusion of the other patriarchates, which were Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc. So it would indeed be arrogant to say that the Roman Catholic Church is the only One True Church which Christ founded to the exclusion of all the other Christian churches.

By the way, a lot of the Protestant reformers were Catholic priests, so it can also be argued, using your reasoning, that Protestantism also traces its lineage to Christ and the apostles.
I believe that history does not agree. Clement I, for instance, who was ordained by St. John the Apostle himself, says this:

The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning at Corinth, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.
St. Clement I, 27-97 AD, First Epitsle to the Corinthians.

St. Irenaeus, one of the first widely publicized Bishops of the Church whose episcopacy was in the late 2nd century, says this:

2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority – that is, the faithful everywhere – inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere. potentiorem principalitatem necesse est omnem convenire ecclesiam, hoc est eos qui sunt undique fideles, in qua semper ab his qui sunt undique, conservata est ea quâ est ab apostolis traditio].
Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD] Adversus Haereses (Book III, Chapter 3)

I would think these two examples, of which there are many more, would be sufficiently early enough to show what the early Christians thought of this matter.

As far as the protestants being validly ordained Priests, one has to remember that just as Jesus Himself appointed the Apostles, the Apostles themselves ordained Bishops. Those Bishops ordained Priests and Deacons. Only a Bishop can ordain a Priest, and therefore the succession stops with the Priest. In the case of Martin Luther, for instance, he would have been considered a Priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. He would not, however, have the authority to ordain anyone else, and therefore all faculties he posessed as a Priest would have died with him. If you are interested in hearing more about this, I can certainly go into greater detail.
 
Can you guys PLEAAAASE lay off Janet.

I get it. To you all she is like that Muslim girl that left the Muslim faith to become Christian. And now the father says she is dead to him.

I get it.

But please. Just lay off. Call off the dogs. Please.

I don’t expect you to understand what happened to Janet. But I do. And it is fine.

Just…Just lay off. You only make yourselves look bad. You really do.

It’s beginning to sound like cyberbullying. It really is.

Yeah, and I know I will get flamed for this. It happens.

But please, just lay off.
 
Hi there!

The early Church was indeed “catholic.” However, this should be differentiated from the Roman Catholic Church.
As far as “Roman” as the qualifier please read this
newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm
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Ben:
In fact, and this is well-known, there are “Catholic” churches which are not Roman, such as the Eastern and Greek Orthodox.

These churches are not under the pope for they have their own patriarchs.
If one is not in union with the pope they are NOT Catholic.
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Ben:
The problem arose when the Bishop of Rome declared himself pope and infallible to the exclusion of the other patriarchates, which were Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc.
Jesus, not Peter, declared Peter the leader of the Church. The only one who can change that is Jesus. That means Peter and his successors (the popes of Rome, Peter’s see) will lead the Church till the end of the world. Which means all those who are disobedient to the authority that Jesus established, will have to give an account.
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Ben:
So it would indeed be arrogant to say that the Roman Catholic Church is the only One True Church which Christ founded to the exclusion of all the other Christian churches.
Maybe this will help
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html
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ben:
By the way, a lot of the Protestant reformers were Catholic priests, so it can also be argued, using your reasoning, that Protestantism also traces its lineage to Christ and the apostles.
erik already answered this.

I would just add that

Paul condemned division from the Church. Since Protestants in their beginning broke from the Church of Rome, it’s fitting to quote what Paul said to the Church of Rome about those who dissent and divide from the Church

Rm 16:

17I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. 20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Gal 5:19… gives the consequences to the individual for division
 
Can you imagine how silly all this must look to an outsider?

Can you imagine a conversation between Sunni and Shi’i Muslims constantly screaming back and forth about whether Ali ibn Abi Talib was the first Imam or the fourth Caliph? I guarantee you that this conversation is every bit as heated as Protestant-Catholic “conversations”.

We are all Christians. We should all try to behave like Christians. Let us distinguish ourselves with our love for each other. Let us show that our (all of us) Lord transforms our lives (and hence our discourse).

I know I can be guilty of this, but just today, in a posting in another thread, I edited out what may be taken as a dig.

This Protestant-Catholic thing is amazing. Part of the intensity comes about because many of us are of European background, and the Reformation came about and divided Europeans. So maybe it’s a family thing. I just don’t see an intense argument going on between Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Maybe it’s geography.
 
It’s so very sad to hear these stories, especially from those who were once in communion with Rome. 🤷
I am not at all sure that she was ever in communion with Rome. It is hard to believe that someone who was properly catechized could stray so far:
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Janet1983:
For me to ever even consider becoming catholic again after being there for 23 years (baptized, confirmed and through school education) the church would have to go through radical changes…

Abolition of the following:
  1. Veneration of the saints, especially Mary
  2. Praying to saints (addressing someone else than God in a prayer is praying to that person… e.g “Hail Mary”… They cannot hear these prayers anyway… it is far better to ask a brother or sister in Christ who is among the living to pray)
  3. Current definition of “saint” as every member of the true church is a saint already and we are justified through Him… Paul talks to and about the members of the churches as saints.
  4. Transubstantiation…
  5. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
  6. Perpetual adoration
  7. Special priesthood…
  8. Only the church and especially the pope can interpret scripture
  9. Infallibility of the pope when he is speaking ex cathedra
  10. Sacraments as a means of salvation (works do follow once we are saved because we are already saved)
  11. Infant baptism
  12. Confession to a priest (though I think that general spiritual guidance and help is appropriate when sought… confessions however are to be made to God)
  13. Forgiveness of sins through the church
  14. Prayer for the deceased (if they are in hell it is too late… if they are in heaven there is no need)
  15. Purgatory (It is either heaven or hell… either a full atonement through the sacrifice of the Lord or none)
  16. Classification of sins (the wages of sin is death)
  17. Salvation as a graduate process
  18. Apocrypha
  19. Teachings about Mary, including her staying a virgin after Jesus was born, the assumption that she was without sin and the she ascended into heaven with her body and soul
  20. Excluding women from the clergy
  21. Forced celibacy of the clergy
  22. The church as the Church of Christ instead of realizing that the Church are truly all Christians that are saved and atoned for by the blood of Christ
  23. Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right while declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God… (Jesus said “I AM THE WAY” and He meant it)
  24. Not opposing the evolution theory
  25. Traditions as equally important as God’s Word in the Bible
  26. Not acknowledging that salvation is only by the pure grace of God
  27. Not acknowledging the absolute inerrant Word of God as manifested in the Bible
Well those would be some…
I would turn back to the church if these things weren’t there… These were the reasons for me turning away in the first place… Without these I could reconcile with the church without conflicting with my conscience…
Thanks you for asking and reading through this…

In Him,
Janet
However, the idea that the Catholic Church should or would have to change to accomodate her more recently acquired doctrines of the Reformation seems to indicate that hubris can carry a person a very long way.
 
Nope the Catholic Church has not betrayed Christ. But the Protestant revolution has. That is why it is so easy for protestant denominations now to allow things that are contrary to Christ’s teaching.

The Church cannot betray Christ because it is His Body. The Body cannot betray the Head.🙂
All those who are “In Christ” are members of His body are part of His church/congregation/assembly. God is a holy God and the Catholic Church at the time of the reformation was unholy. You say you have not sinned so your sin lives with you.
 
If you were NOT ashamed of the Gospel you would adhere to it. You wouldn’t REJECT parts of it just because it was “hard” for you to accept.

He who hears you hears me…Jesus refereing to the Catholic Church
I think you hit THAT nail on the head!
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Janet1983:
I also never said that condoms are wrong. Scripture doesn’t give that and that is why I don’t think they are a sin …

Abstinence during absence is easy in comparison to being in one bed and around each other all the time…

“Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.” 1 Corinthians 7:5

As I wrote, sex is not only for procreation, but also for intimacy, physical pleasure and companionship. Therefore sex is still good even when the procreation is not the goal. In a marital relationship sex is important and should not be left out.
Certain Catholic teachings are just too hard to accept.
 
Jesus gave us a congregation which had all spiritual authority.
That’s the Catholic Church
h:
The history of the Catholic Church is to misinterpret this to mean all corporal authority.
what specifically are you talking about
h:
The councils were to handle disputes so there was a dispute over the authority of the pope and what happened? A schism. The council didnt settle it. Did Christ set up a pope? Of course not.
He established Peter, his office, and He told Peter to feed and rule his Church.
h:
The dispute over the authority of scripture vs the authority over tradition/councils/ popes did not even make it to a council before there was a split. How could it when one side used its “authority” to brandish the other side before te dispute could be resolved.
So to answer your question. In practice the resolution of conflicts broke down, it did not work.
In every action, God is in essence saying to every individual

today I put before you life and death blessings and curses…choose life. [Dt 30:19]

even at that, some people choose death. But the choice is theirs.
h:
If you seek after God with your whole heart you will find Him. And if you find Him He will place you in a congregation. Seek first God and His kindom.
Many who have gone throuh this process have been placed in congregations that are not the Catholic Church that is why we say it is a false paradim. Many who have gone through this process have been placed into the Catholic Church so we know that there is life in Christ in the Catholic Church. It is all about Christ it is not about His congregation even though we are His bride.
Jesus does NOT take people away from the Eucharist. He does NOT lead people away from the Sacraments HE established. He does NOT lead people away from the Church HE established.

That’s why Paul said to the Church of Rome, people who divide from the Church don’t serve Our Lord but their own appetites. [Rm 16:17…]

St Francis de Sales during the height of the Protestant revolt, wrote a series of pamphlets that were made into a book. It is a short read. But it addresses all the issues. If you’re interested you can read it online. Just click through the table of contents.

goodcatholicbooks.org/francis/catholic-controversy.html

If you want to engage in serious conversation, don’t ignore this little book.
 
The Bible establishes Peter as the head of the true Church. The Popes are the modern-day Peters. Please explain how you can deny this truth and still say you are “Bible-believing”.
Christ said, go forth with the holy spirit and spread my good news, and surly I will be with you until the end of the age.

…what has being “catholic” got to do with that!? :rolleyes:
Protestants are bible believing, and they are mostly more christian and bible believing than most catholics.
 
LOL! :eek: Of course not! Doesn’t it say in my profile that I’m an Evengelical Christian? I am not a member of that cult, the INC, which is a newer version of Arianism. They deny the deity of Christ despite their continuous practice of worshipping Him.
Sorry! Had to ask, since they are in the Philippines and may not be totally truthful with the outside world, if you know what i mean.
 
I just don’t see an intense argument going on between Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Maybe it’s geography.
Well, the Catholic and Orthodox are in constant reunification talks. We are soooo close in beliefs and extremely little divides us. But, notice that if you state you are Orthodox, you don’t get hit in the face with a sola scriptura cream pie? Literally or even figuratively. And, our teachings are the same except for how the Holy Spirit proceeds. No, it’s not funny about the constant bickering. But, truth is truth and the Orthodox seem to dodge the bullet. Maybe they’re just quicker than we are…
 
I am not at all sure that she was ever in communion with Rome. It is hard to believe that someone who was properly catechized could stray so far:
She mysteriously clammed up when I asked about her belief in the Eucharist. I have survived the past three decades because of my suspicion. It is activated when reading her posts.
However, the idea that the Catholic Church should or would have to change to accomodate her more recently acquired doctrines of the Reformation seems to indicate that hubris can carry a person a very long way.
And there were those who were shocked, SHOCKED! when I mentioned that her walking away from Christ in the Eucharist was demonically inspired. I guess you would indeed be shocked if that had never actually occurred, huh?
 
So what is your point? We are speaking from our point of view, not God’s.
I would rather reach for God’s point of view than stand on my own. You likely reject the communion of Saints, so to you they are dead. They are not dead to God, so they are able to pray for us. Since they are in Heaven, in perfection, do you suppose that their prayers are efficacious at all?
Do you see any spirit of any apostle wandering about?
Neither have I ever seen the Holy Spirit. But, I know he’s there.
Moreover, there was the requirement that for someone to be qualified as an apostle, he must have seen and travelled with Christ, such as Mathias, the one who replaced Judas. Could that be said of any of the Roman Catholic popes or bishops? Of course not!
Not even Peter? Think again. And no Pope except Peter even claimed to have been an Apostle. They are, however, the successors to the Apostles. The Apostles had the authority to appoint successors (Matthias for Judas set the example for the successors).

IMAGINE: The last Apostle John, died before there was a bible. How did Christ’s Church exist without a bible or Apostles? Hint: the successors to the Apostles. It is because of their efforts that we have the Church and the bible.

I pray that I can get an Amen!
 
She mysteriously clammed up when I asked about her belief in the Eucharist. I have survived the past three decades because of my suspicion. It is activated when reading her posts.And there were those who were shocked, SHOCKED! when I mentioned that her walking away from Christ in the Eucharist was demonically inspired. I guess you would indeed be shocked if that had never actually occurred, huh?
I just did adore it, but I do not do so anymore. I don’t see where I should have clammed up with that in any way.
I was pretty extreme in my adoration (well for German standards) and I do not do it anymore.
I simply will not bow down to a bread that is supposed to be my Lord. I do not believe this “truth” any more. He is risen and He is seated at the right hand of the father in all of His glory.
 
“A church” and the Church that Jesus Christ founded are two different things.
They are not for Catholics. For us, there is only One Church, One Faith, One Baptism.
To be member of “a church” I have to get baptised (sometimes this happens already with infants who can’t decide at all) or undergo some other form of initiation into it.
Some Protestant chruches have you sign a “creed” or declaration of faith, or make a profession of faith in front of some elders.
To be part of the Church Jesus Christ has founded one has to be a true believer in Him and a true follower of Him, one’s sins being atoned for already by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice.
I agree with what you say here, but this is what happens in Baptism for Catholics. There is no distinction in scripture for the category of “true” believer. This is a modern innovation of the Reformation.
.
The modern church membership does not matter at a
ll in this case because only Christ matters.
Well, you are correct. The “modern” ecclesial community really does not qualify as a “church” at all, as it lacks the characteristics of the Church founded by Christ.
 
i.e. works?
Yes and no. Probably not in the manner in which you insinuate. However, we believe that faith working through love is all that counts. Our faith is not “alone”,but as the Apostles taught, is always accompanied by hope and love. We also believe in a faith that is obedient, so our faith is always accompanied by deeds that befit repentance.
Glad that I am part of the Church Jesus Christ founded…
I am too. I pray that you will find healing of your pain, so that you can one day return to the fullness of the faith.
 
Can you guys PLEAAAASE lay off Janet.

I get it. To you all she is like that Muslim girl that left the Muslim faith to become Christian. And now the father says she is dead to him.

I get it.

But please. Just lay off. Call off the dogs. Please.

I don’t expect you to understand what happened to Janet. But I do. And it is fine.

Just…Just lay off. You only make yourselves look bad. You really do.

It’s beginning to sound like cyberbullying. It really is.

Yeah, and I know I will get flamed for this. It happens.

But please, just lay off.
Are you for real? People who defend their faith are now the bad guys…Janet and others come here to disparage Catholics and the Church and because they don’t run into people who don’t know their faith but quite the opposite…people who do…WEare the bad guys.?

Are you serious?
 
All those who are “In Christ” are members of His body are part of His church/congregation/assembly. God is a holy God and the Catholic Church at the time of the reformation was unholy. You say you have not sinned so your sin lives with you.
He who hears you hears me…Jesus refering to the Catholic Chuch

As Jesus says in Holy Scripture…you can’t be part of His church if you reject what the church teaches…you are in reality rejecting HIM.
 
Yes and no. Probably not in the manner in which you insinuate. However, we believe that faith working through love is all that counts. Our faith is not “alone”,but as the Apostles taught, is always accompanied by hope and love. We also believe in a faith that is obedient, so our faith is always accompanied by deeds that befit repentance.

I am too. I pray that you will find healing of your pain, so that you can one day return to the fullness of the faith.
Janet is very hurt, we need to be gentle with her, not bitter. That will only send her further away. Rather than talk to her about her lack of belief, talk to her about her actual beliefs.

Guanophore, I think you could help her because you have such a great knowledge about catholicism.

P.S. Can you show me that bit in the bible were the word catholic was?
 
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