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Catholig
Guest
If I were at Church and he went up to receive I’d tell the Priest (or EMHC) not to allow him to receive. And if asked why I’d say that he isn’t catholic.
Catholig
- Status
Catholig
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orgel_maestro
Guest
I’d feel like a jerk if I ran up n was like, Stop everything! do not give him Holy Communion, this man is not a Catholic! crowd gasps just kidding. I think the best solution would be to just try and explain, to him. This is why we need altar rails, non-catholics would feel intimidated going up to kneel n stick out ure tongue
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chris_molter
Guest
Not if they’re Episcopalians/Anglicans!!This is why we need altar rails, non-catholics would feel intimidated going up to kneel n stick out ure tongue
I agree that the restoration of altar rails and communion on the tongue are a VERY good thing, btw!
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Markway
Guest
Is it proper to deny a believer, confessed and in a state of grace, communion based on whether or not he believes every detail of doctrine? If so then you hold to a higher standard than St Paul, and Christ Himself who had not even revealed His whole purpose at the last supper!
Good points all.
No.Brother, ain’t that the truth! :yup:
Not at all!Here’s where we hit the real issue, okay? Do you know precisely what you are witnessing your assent to when you present yourself to that priest to receive the Eucharist? Have a look at the papal encyclical that I quoted above because it explains clearly and eloquently this whole matter.
The Eucharist IS Scriptural is a thread that I created to deal with what we Catholics believe and teach about this. Can you say “Yes, Amen.” to those things? If not then there is a problem. If you do believe these things then the next logical step for an honest believer is to actually join the Catholic Church. That’s something to think about…
The early church also made a really big deal out of this.Yes…and yes.
However, as I have pointed out, there is no optional belief concerning this, and when you present yourself to the priest to take the Eucharist, you are professing that you share our exact and specific beliefs about it and if you do not share those beliefs, the you bear witness to something that you do not agree with.
Is that a proper thing for a Christian to do?
It is scientifically possible to analyse the Eucharist and determine that it is wine and bread. The REAL meaning here is metaphysical not physical and should have been obvious since earliest times.
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andzy
Guest
It’s not so much about believing every detail of doctrine, but about belonging to the community. If I’m not in communion with the Catholic Church, then how can I receive the Holy Communion (since for the Catholic Church it is a REALLY BIG deal, much more so than for any Christian church/denomination/group that I’ve heard of).
Would you sleep with your girlfriend/boyfriend if she/he wasn’t your wife/husband? No! (I hope
) That’s because of the deep, deep level of intimacy that non-married people are not to share - no matter how much they believe and love, and know about each other as single people.
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Markway
Guest
Hi. The last time I posted , the exchange became way to arguementative. I’m sure that this board was invisioned as an outreach and conversational device. I know all too well how easily these “conversations” can turn into debate and from debate to arguement and acrimony. I do not want that. I came here as a seeker not a Protestant warrior or something. However, I will stand up for Christ as well as I am able.
I was raised and taught and deeply believe that communion is a priveliege, both for those who perform the ceremony and those who receive it. We don’t own it, Christ does,and He allows us to share in it. As the Bible says,“Nothing in Heaven or earth can seperate us from Him”. See, if I’m a Christian, I AM your brother, and I am part of the community. You may not care, but WE would welcome YOU. Perhaps we are just less discriminating.
Would it help to know what our communion is like? We meet at a little school, (we do too many missions and cannot support a church building ) The seats are metal folding chairs, and we sit quietly. Soon the pastor comes out onto the platform. There’s a modern band set up behind him. He could pretend to be a star except he looks like an earth moving tool just swallowed a big round boulder.
He reads from the book of John on Spirit and life. The band plays. Is it Rock? No, it’s really just a totally subdued gift to the singers. They sing some songs, old songs for us, people begin to raise their hands and close their eyes. The Spirit moves and at the MOMENT they begin to sing “White As Snow”. “White as snow, White as snow; though my sins were as scarlett, white as snow, Lord I know, Lord I know, that my sins are forgiven”, ( you can get it on iTunes) Men at the back of the room bring up the bread and wine on plates. They put them on the table that we use for an altar. The Pastor blesses the bread and the cup, then recites Christ’s words during the last supper, “This is my body, broken for thee”
The men pass out the bread and wine in those cheesy plastic cups, and when everyone is served, each of us eats and drinks. Each man or woman knows in their heart if they can take the sacrement, each chooses. We are done. Life goes on and we all feel awkward, a bit anyway. Strange to be back in that cement floored school gymnasium.
How do we tithe? There’s a box in the back of the “church”. It’s cutely called “The Love Box”. People put in money unseen by anyone, and the REALLY DO put in. Sometimes the Pastor digs into it though.
Several years agoa woman came up to him after service and told him that her husband was beating her and the kids. Was at the end of her rope, broke etc. Pastor goes back and gets the Love Box, opens it and bives her all of the dough inside, and tells her to get out of the house with her kids.
It’s pretty disorganised and informal, but people love God. Some do street ministry. Ever approach someone publicly about the Lord cold? I associate that sort of thing with the JW’s but it’s brough people out of darkeness. One of the ministry leaders is the head of the Union Gospel Mission, and that’s more the style.
The Pastor blesses the
I was raised and taught and deeply believe that communion is a priveliege, both for those who perform the ceremony and those who receive it. We don’t own it, Christ does,and He allows us to share in it. As the Bible says,“Nothing in Heaven or earth can seperate us from Him”. See, if I’m a Christian, I AM your brother, and I am part of the community. You may not care, but WE would welcome YOU. Perhaps we are just less discriminating.
Would it help to know what our communion is like? We meet at a little school, (we do too many missions and cannot support a church building ) The seats are metal folding chairs, and we sit quietly. Soon the pastor comes out onto the platform. There’s a modern band set up behind him. He could pretend to be a star except he looks like an earth moving tool just swallowed a big round boulder.
He reads from the book of John on Spirit and life. The band plays. Is it Rock? No, it’s really just a totally subdued gift to the singers. They sing some songs, old songs for us, people begin to raise their hands and close their eyes. The Spirit moves and at the MOMENT they begin to sing “White As Snow”. “White as snow, White as snow; though my sins were as scarlett, white as snow, Lord I know, Lord I know, that my sins are forgiven”, ( you can get it on iTunes) Men at the back of the room bring up the bread and wine on plates. They put them on the table that we use for an altar. The Pastor blesses the bread and the cup, then recites Christ’s words during the last supper, “This is my body, broken for thee”
The men pass out the bread and wine in those cheesy plastic cups, and when everyone is served, each of us eats and drinks. Each man or woman knows in their heart if they can take the sacrement, each chooses. We are done. Life goes on and we all feel awkward, a bit anyway. Strange to be back in that cement floored school gymnasium.
How do we tithe? There’s a box in the back of the “church”. It’s cutely called “The Love Box”. People put in money unseen by anyone, and the REALLY DO put in. Sometimes the Pastor digs into it though.
Several years agoa woman came up to him after service and told him that her husband was beating her and the kids. Was at the end of her rope, broke etc. Pastor goes back and gets the Love Box, opens it and bives her all of the dough inside, and tells her to get out of the house with her kids.
It’s pretty disorganised and informal, but people love God. Some do street ministry. Ever approach someone publicly about the Lord cold? I associate that sort of thing with the JW’s but it’s brough people out of darkeness. One of the ministry leaders is the head of the Union Gospel Mission, and that’s more the style.
The Pastor blesses the
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LilyM
Guest
It’s not what your communion is like that matters, and I mean that with greatest possible respect to your faith.
What matters more is by receiving communion in a Catholic church you declare yourself to be Catholic. Not Christian, since not every Christian denomination believes in transubstantiation nor Apostolic succession, but specifically Catholic. That is how seriously we take this ‘discerning the Body and Blood’ bit. And we believe Paul and the other Apostles meant it that seriously too, since Ignatius, who learned from John the Apostle, took it so, as the quote from Church Militant shows.
Similarly I cannot present myself for communion at your church, because by doing so I declare myself before God (whether your members know this or not) to be a member of your denomination, sharing in your beliefs about communion for one, which is untrue. I’d be pretending to a unity and identity as far as my beliefs go which simply isn’t there. I’d basically be lying by my actions, and I certainly respect your faith and your communion too much to do that. I hope you’d d the same for us.
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MrS
Guest
[1] Welcome to CA forums. Your tone and attitude is most welcome. Hopefully none of “us” will turn you off (although I tend to be a bit blunt sometimes - right mods
?)[2] Yes, communion is a privilege. Your mention of “those who perform the ceremony” prompts two thoughts. First, Catholics understant that the celebrant - the properly ordained priest - has received his authority from apostolic succession of the Catholic Bishops. That is not possible outside the Church. Second, we have an uneasy (IMHO) trend happening in the Catholic Church that leans toward ceremony/entertainment in the Liturgy of the Mass. But those “abuses” do not change the basic Truth of the Mass. It is not a ceremony, but rather the highest form of Worship of God that man has ever had or will ever have.
[3] I have often mentioned, here and elsewhere, the historical fact that the word Church only applied to what is now the Catholic Church. The word has, over the centuries, been “stolen” or “borrowed” by other groups formed by men (or women). Perhaps this is to bolster their false claims that they too are part of the church Jesus founded.
Respectfully, you are a brother in Christ when you are properly baptized, but you are not part of the Catholic Church and thus not “eligible” to receive the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
[4] As much as God loves your pastor, he is only reciting words. He does not have the divine authority or power to confect the Eucharist. Even a scandalist priest has that power (and we should pray for all priests always if only for that reason).
Simply put… no priests = no Eucharist. No Eucharist = no Church.
[5] Sorry…not a sacrament. A remembrance - at most, perhaps. But not a sacrament.
Think of the feeding of the 5000, a prelude and a foreshadow of the Mass. Jesus performed the miracle… but only the Apostles were permitted, or instructed, to feed the people who were grouped (like parishes, perhaps?). And when they (Apostles) ran out of food, they (not the people) went back to Jesus for more. And they (Apostles, not the people) gathered the remains, less any be wasted.
[6] “each chooses” says a lot. We have the same situation in the Catholic Church. Too many of the laity “choose” what they want and want they think the Church needs. Simply they are abuses, some of which are now considered norms. We can correct those problems over time. But the Mass and the Eucharist are eternal. Jesus is eternal.
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Markway
Guest
I believe that Christ founded a Church, The Church, His church. To be Christian means to belong to that Church, that ONE church.
We may fight and argue, but if we are Christians, then we ARE Brothers In Christ, and part of the same Christian Community. If there is a divorce and the children are split between the parents, a marrige is broken, but the chilren are still family.
My ancestors were Catholic too, one a defrocked priest, heaven forbid. Most Europeans for that matter have Catholic ancestors.You’re talking like we’re two seperate peoples.
It makes me think of that old saying, “History is written by the winners”. Both Catholics and Protestants “Won” their religous war, and both claim victory. You claim Church authority, while Protestants do the same. Who holds the truer claim to “Church Authority”?
I have seen both priests and pastors who had authority from God, and those who had not. The Spirit moves where it wills, and who can deny it? Have you ever felt the Spirit move? Ever SEEN It? If you have you cannot deny It.
Official authority and natural authority are two very seperate things. Just compare my old sergeant and the 1st lieutenant.
Someone mentioned community and so forth. That person sounds like someone who is unwilling to spread their tent. My mother-in-law is very particular about Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners. She only allows close family to come to her affairs. We have spoiled her time on several occaisions by taking the kids down and serving at the Union Gospel Misssion dinner as a FAMILY, for Christ, and in thanks. Not pride.
I knew a wild old pastor once who liked to say, “Don’t be so heavely minded that you’re no earthly good!”
We may fight and argue, but if we are Christians, then we ARE Brothers In Christ, and part of the same Christian Community. If there is a divorce and the children are split between the parents, a marrige is broken, but the chilren are still family.
My ancestors were Catholic too, one a defrocked priest, heaven forbid. Most Europeans for that matter have Catholic ancestors.You’re talking like we’re two seperate peoples.
It makes me think of that old saying, “History is written by the winners”. Both Catholics and Protestants “Won” their religous war, and both claim victory. You claim Church authority, while Protestants do the same. Who holds the truer claim to “Church Authority”?
I have seen both priests and pastors who had authority from God, and those who had not. The Spirit moves where it wills, and who can deny it? Have you ever felt the Spirit move? Ever SEEN It? If you have you cannot deny It.
Official authority and natural authority are two very seperate things. Just compare my old sergeant and the 1st lieutenant.
Someone mentioned community and so forth. That person sounds like someone who is unwilling to spread their tent. My mother-in-law is very particular about Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners. She only allows close family to come to her affairs. We have spoiled her time on several occaisions by taking the kids down and serving at the Union Gospel Misssion dinner as a FAMILY, for Christ, and in thanks. Not pride.
I knew a wild old pastor once who liked to say, “Don’t be so heavely minded that you’re no earthly good!”
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LilyM
Guest
The Body and Blood of Christ is NOT just a matter of playing nice and pretending to get along for Grandma’s sake. Whoever your ancestors were, the fact remains that now there are centuries worth of incredibly deep divisions among the different Christian denominations that can’t be wallpapered over. We AREN’T one, not nearly, much as it pains me to say so, it’s the truth and we’re deceiving noone by trying to pretend otherwise.
Of course if you PREFER to eat and drink your own damnation
then you’re welcome go find a church that cares so little about your immortal soul that they’ll permit you to do so. Paul meant his words to be taken seriously and I for one am glad that there are some churches who do so.You can say you’re a duck all you like, simple fact is you don’t have feathers, can’t quack and wouldn’t taste good roasted a l’orange. Go play with the geese where you belong.
And speaking of worthwhile sayings - here’s one for you, don’t be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
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Markway
Guest
The sarcasm came across, but a point did not. Was sarcasm the point? Am I supposed to turn around now and say that it’s not my church but your church that is ending yout to Hell? And then you’ll turn around and call be some sort of anti Catholic troublemaker?Of course if you PREFER to eat and drink your own damnation
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LilyM
Guest
I’m deadly serious, because as I said the Body and Blood is a deadly serious matter, literally.The sarcasm came across, but a point did not. Was sarcasm the point? Am I supposed to turn around now and say that it’s not my church but your church that is ending yout to Hell? And then you’ll turn around and call be some sort of anti Catholic troublemaker?
If you took communion in my church it would be your own lie of pretending to be of a faith that isn’t your own that would damn you, not what my church does or doesn’t do. That’s why I would be equally damned for taking communion in your church. It’s akin to fraud.
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Markway
Guest
You still don’t get it. If you are not of my faith you are not a Christian and are going to Hell. I/we take communion VERY seriously. I view it as the metaphysical body and blood of Christ. I know that I must confess, truly confess. I don’t need anyone to tell me that I am forgiven because Christ Himself tells me that if I am truly repentant that He will forgive me. We are all unclean except positionally; if Christ allows us to be clean.
You are SO wrong! YOUR faith? What about Christ’s Church? I think that I’ll go by Christ’s Church instead of YOUR faith. Who made you interpreter of Christ? Do you speak for the Roman Catholic Church? We should all think twice; the Pharisees were all pretty comfortable the last time around.
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LilyM
Guest
Rubbish! I am every bit as much a Christian as you - but we simply don’t share the same beliefs about the Eucharist for starters, not nearly! And I’m not talking about confession or not. I’m talking about what it is and how it comes to be that way. And who has the power and authority to validly administer it. Doesn’t make me unChristian but it DOES make our beliefs seriously different from each other.
I speak out of knowledge of the Church’s teaching, which IS Christ’s teaching. Our Pope, bishops and priests ARE uniquely entrusted to rightly interpret Christ’s teaching due to the unique protection offered to them (not to all individuals or denominations) by the Holy Spirit, conferred by Christ to the Apostles and the Apostles to their successors (our bishops and priests, not yours) by laying on of hands. Along with the power to bind and loose on matters of faith.
You’ll assert that they don’t have these powers, but how are you any more qualified to say that you or your denomination IS? Where is your unbroken line of authority stretching back to the Apostles?
The above in itself should be enough to show you WHY it would be very wrong and false for us to be intercommuning - we’re not nearly ‘discerning’ enough about each other’s view of the Body and Blood, and much else besides, and it would be a false and hollow show indeed for us to pretend we have enough in common with each other. Which of us is right? Ultimately it’s for Christ to judge. Are we united, as we must be to share communion? Not really.
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Markway
Guest
First off I have to point out that your photo is very creepy. Every bit as creepy as a light up plastic Jesus doll I once saw.
ALL of the Christian Church is invested with Christ’s authority. The plant split, but the root is still the same. I realized today after some thought that our lack of communication might be due to a basic misunderstanding. Non-RC’s are used to hearing about Papal Authority, and power of the priesthood etc, but it is not real to us. I’m guessing here that you can’t take communion unless a priest lays hands on it or something, right? Most of the rest of us believe, with biblical authority, that the laity is invested with the priesthood, and that any of the sacraments may be performed where at most two of us are gathered together.
As for you LillyM, you could be a nicer person. If you are trying to win people to Christ, or at least to the RC’s you’re not going about it in a Christlike way.
As for your comments on communion, you know, or should know that what matters is what’s in your heart and what’s between you and God.If I took communion anywhere it is to share in the body of Christ. There is no lie. Perhaps if the priest got up before hand and said, “Attention everyone! This communion service is for RC’s only. If you don’t agree with every papal bull and encyclical ever written you are not welcome to take communion here. Furthermore, we will assume that the taking of communion here is a public assertion and assent to these views.”, it’d be a different deal, but he doesn’t. The Church is all Christians everywhere, not just one division or the other and certainly not the few hundred or so folks in your local church community. Communion among other things shows and expresses this brotherhood. Christianity is one big family whether you like the inlaws or not.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
It is written, “16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.” Matthew 7:16-17First off I have to point out that your photo is very creepy. Every bit as creepy as a light up plastic Jesus doll I once saw.
What kind of Christianity is to call a fellow CAF members is very creepy? Do you enjoy so much as to insult Catholic Christians? By whose authority do you go by making as** offensive remarks**?
It is due to lack of understanding. Protestants should respect that the Catholic Church policy on receiving Holy Communion, and they should not received them because they do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches. Therefore, No Protestants should received Holy Communion in any Catholic Church.
How about you? Do you review what you write down before making insulting remarks against us?
In due respect, my separated brother and sister in Christ, it is because of the Reformation in 1517 Protestants could not parttake in Holy Communion in a Catholic Church. Before that time, everyone in Western Europe was Catholic.
Second, other Christian Churches like the Orthodox Church we Catholics cannot received their communion without the bishop or Patriarch’s permission. This is because we Catholics acknowledges they have valid Sacraments (all 7 Sacraments) and they have valid Apostolic Succession. If an Greek Orthodox bishop say we can’t, we cannot take Communion.
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LilyM
Guest
The picture is of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Many Catholics have a devotion to the Heart of Jesus, which symbolises His love. It is pictured surrounded by flames because His love manifested itself most clearly in His suffering and death. If you find the fact that He suffered and died out of love for us creepy, then I don’t know what to say. Hardly very Christlike of you to be criticising my choice of artwork - if you’re trying to win me over to anything.First off I have to point out that your photo is very creepy. Every bit as creepy as a light up plastic Jesus doll I once saw.
ALL of the Christian Church is invested with Christ’s authority. The plant split, but the root is still the same. I realized today after some thought that our lack of communication might be due to a basic misunderstanding. Non-RC’s are used to hearing about Papal Authority, and power of the priesthood etc, but it is not real to us. I’m guessing here that you can’t take communion unless a priest lays hands on it or something, right? Most of the rest of us believe, with biblical authority, that the laity is invested with the priesthood, and that any of the sacraments may be performed where at most two of us are gathered together.
As for you LillyM, you could be a nicer person. If you are trying to win people to Christ, or at least to the RC’s you’re not going about it in a Christlike way.
As for your comments on communion, you know, or should know that what matters is what’s in your heart and what’s between you and God.If I took communion anywhere it is to share in the body of Christ. There is no lie. Perhaps if the priest got up before hand and said, “Attention everyone! This communion service is for RC’s only. If you don’t agree with every papal bull and encyclical ever written you are not welcome to take communion here. Furthermore, we will assume that the taking of communion here is a public assertion and assent to these views.”, it’d be a different deal, but he doesn’t. The Church is all Christians everywhere, not just one division or the other and certainly not the few hundred or so folks in your local church community. Communion among other things shows and expresses this brotherhood. Christianity is one big family whether you like the inlaws or not.
As for the sacraments, including the Eucharist. We’re not all alike in authority. Christ didn’t send all his disciples out to preach and teach, only the 72. Neither were they all present at the Last Supper, receivinng the commission to ‘do this’ - only the Twelve. True, Christ is present in and with all who sincerely believe in Him, but that still doesn’t mean all have the same authority or powers.
And the priest may not make an announcement in Mass, but the Missals provided (to help you follow along with the prayers of the Mass) DO state clearly who may and may not receive the Eucharist.
Even so, really it’s irrelevant whether they do or not. You wouldn’t go to a foreign country without finding out a little about what behaviour is expected of you when you meet someone or dine with them, nor to (say) a mosque or a Buddhist temple without again finding out what you’re supposed to do and not do.
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I_Leatherman
Guest
From the moment He said ‘…This *is *my flesh…’ until the 16th century everyone believed exactly what He said. The Catholic monk Luther, who rejected this when he rebelled against the community of believers, only went so far as to state that it was Christs flesh still - but it also contained bread - not what Christ said.
Most protestants today probably reject Luthers understanding and could not recieve Luthers version of communion honestly - since they would in their hearts really be recieving their version of Luthers version of what he mistakenly thought the eucharist was. So, a non-Lutheran who says he is recieving an actual Lutheran communion is telling a lie. He lies by the act of recieving something he denies is true.
Markway:
It becomes worse when Christ Says ‘this *is *My flesh’, and they recieve it in defiance of His words of its truth.
If you want to be part of the community just be part of, theres no need for you to lie to yourself or God or anyone else…
Most protestants today probably reject Luthers understanding and could not recieve Luthers version of communion honestly - since they would in their hearts really be recieving their version of Luthers version of what he mistakenly thought the eucharist was. So, a non-Lutheran who says he is recieving an actual Lutheran communion is telling a lie. He lies by the act of recieving something he denies is true.
But when a group freely and openly rebels against the community, and defines themselves as a group as ‘those who are in opposition’, then we take them at their word. They don’t want to be considered part of any overall brotherhood. And they are lying to themselves if they accept some sign of community, a thing which they do not want, because they placed themselves separate, freely.
It becomes worse when Christ Says ‘this *is *My flesh’, and they recieve it in defiance of His words of its truth.
If you want to be part of the community just be part of, theres no need for you to lie to yourself or God or anyone else…
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Markway
Guest
I said that your picture was creepy not you. You have been especially offensive and personal in previous remarks. I do no one any service, especially yourself by not pointing this out.
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Markway
Guest
The opposition was not to Christ or the Church if you will recall but to Church error. Luther didn’t quit, he was fired.From the moment He said ‘…This *is *my flesh…’ until the 16th century everyone believed exactly what He said. The Catholic monk Luther, who rejected this when he rebelled against the community of believers, only went so far as to state that it was Christs flesh still - but it also contained bread - not what Christ said.
Most protestants today probably reject Luthers understanding and could not recieve Luthers version of communion honestly - since they would in their hearts really be recieving their version of Luthers version of what he mistakenly thought the eucharist was. So, a non-Lutheran who says he is recieving an actual Lutheran communion is telling a lie. He lies by the act of recieving something he denies is true.
But when a group freely and openly rebels against the community, and defines themselves as a group as ‘those who are in opposition’, then we take them at their word. They don’t want to be considered part of any overall brotherhood. And they are lying to themselves if they accept some sign of community, a thing which they do not want, because they placed themselves separate, freely.
It becomes worse when Christ Says ‘this *is *My flesh’, and they recieve it in defiance of His words of its truth.
If you want to be part of the community just be part of, theres no need for you to lie to yourself or God or anyone else…
- Status