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Prosmith
Guest
I’m at home now with Christ but thanks for thinking about me.
- Status
What protestants do is irrelevent. Whether or not they claim Luther as an example is irrelevent. Luther’s Bible has them, plus the Book of Manasseh. And Luthers still use the deutero-canon, even liturgically.
There were lots of things that got him in trouble, most notably is attack on the abuses of indulgences. But you are right, justification is/was the defining difference in the 1500’s. Perhaps less so today.
Perhaps a reading of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of justification is helpful at this point. I would reject the claim that James even contradicts sola fide, or at least my understanding of it as a Lutheran. Luther often preached on James after his excommunication, and Lutherans to this day do so.
And also with you,
Jon
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enickman
Guest
God may not need my love, but I hope He prefers I do love Him compared to not. Loving my neighbor is considered a work. In the end of Matthew Jesus explains how we will be judged and it pertains mainly to how we treated the poor. That is also a work. Work isn’t all we need, but it is something that we need.
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JPeter
Guest
No one since the day of the reformation has suggested that we do not need to do good works. Good works are necessary! They are not necessary for your salvation but for plenty of other reasons. If we are not doing good works than we are not Christians. Faith has to show itself in works. However, It is not about what we are doing but what Jesus has done for us and is doing in us. Which is why when Roman Catholics say that we do not believe in works righteousness or that we can earn our salvation I have a hard time believing them. Roman Catholics say that God gives us salvation freely out of His love. They are correct! They teach that God gives us salvation freely and not because we have earned it. They are correct! But when Roman Catholics say that Jesus gives us salvation by grace and not based on my works, they only mean that its by grace and not by my works that Jesus lets me begin the process where I earn salvation by my good works. Which really just changes the definition of grace halfway through. Am I missing something?
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Prosmith
Guest
If the Spirit were not working in us, we would not love our neighbor. I cannot love my neighbor as a personal work. It is the work of the Spirit within me in direct exacerbation of my faith in Christ.
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Prosmith
Guest
Totally spot on in my thought. As an Anglican you know it well that when we say the Creed and say, “We look for the Ressurection of the dead”, many of us cross ourselves to just remind ourselves and to also show the world that it is only because of the cross that this is even possible.No one since the day of the reformation has suggested that we do not need to do good works. Good works are necessary! They are not necessary for your salvation but for plenty of other reasons. If we are not doing good works than we are not Christians. Faith has to show itself in works. However, It is not about what we are doing but what Jesus has done for us and is doing in us. Which is why when Roman Catholics say that we do not believe in works righteousness or that we can earn our salvation I have a hard time believing them. Roman Catholics say that God gives us salvation freely out of His love. They are correct! They teach that God gives us salvation freely and not because we have earned it. They are correct! But when Roman Catholics say that Jesus gives us salvation by grace and not based on my works, they only mean that its by grace and not by my works that Jesus lets me begin the process where I earn salvation by my good works. Which really just changes the definition of grace halfway through. Am I missing something?
J
JPeter
Guest
WE do not presume to come to this thy Table, O
merciful Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but
in thy manifold and great mercies. We are not worthy so
much as to gather up the crumbs underthy Table. But thou
art the same Lord, whose property is always to have
mercy: Grant us therefore, gracious Lord, so to eat the
flesh of thy dear Son Jesus Christ, and to drink his blood,
that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, and
our souls washed through his most precious blood, and that
we may evermore dwell in him, and he in us. Amen.
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JPeter
Guest
The joint declaration on Justification does not even make sense! When Lutherans talk about faith showing itself in works they mean something totally different than Catholics do. The Lutheran understanding is correct. There is no way that the Lutherans can compromise with Catholics on this doctrine. The teachings are totally different.
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Prosmith
Guest
Amen!
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enickman
Guest
Yes you are. We can do no work to attain the grace God gives us. But we must work to keep ourselves in that grace. That doesn’t mean you have to go build a shelter for the homeless to stay in good standing. It can mean as little as working to stay away from sin. Things like abstaining from things like sexual temptation or other selfish desires is considered work. We need only to look at Adam and Eve to see how we can take ourselves from God’s grace through bad works(sin). God doesn’t take the gift away, we do by our actions.No one since the day of the reformation has suggested that we do not need to do good works. Good works are necessary! They are not necessary for your salvation but for plenty of other reasons. If we are not doing good works than we are not Christians. Faith has to show itself in works. However, It is not about what we are doing but what Jesus has done for us and is doing in us. Which is why when Roman Catholics say that we do not believe in works righteousness or that we can earn our salvation I have a hard time believing them. Roman Catholics say that God gives us salvation freely out of His love. They are correct! They teach that God gives us salvation freely and not because we have earned it. They are correct! But when Roman Catholics say that Jesus gives us salvation by grace and not based on my works, they only mean that its by grace and not by my works that Jesus lets me begin the process where I earn salvation by my good works. Which really just changes the definition of grace halfway through. Am I missing something?
Again, nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say we can earn our salvation through works. Christ earned our salvation for us. I would appreciate you stop saying that we teach something that we don’t.
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hn160
Guest
I have been following these posts, because I have been busy with Vacation Bible School at our church. You are absolutely right about the so called agreement on Justification between Roman Catholics and the Lutheran World Federation ( JDDJ ). The Catholics never changed their view of Justification that was established by the Council of Trent. They still say that Works play a part in our being justified before God, that Christ didn’t do it all. You sound more Lutheran than some Lutherans.The joint declaration on Justification does not even make sense! When Lutherans talk about faith showing itself in works they mean something totally different than Catholics do. The Lutheran understanding is correct. There is no way that the Lutherans can compromise with Catholics on this doctrine. The teachings are totally different.
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benjohnson
Guest
From the Lutheran side, I don’t think there’s any compromise as all, just a better mutual understanding.The joint declaration on Justification does not even make sense! When Lutherans talk about faith showing itself in works they mean something totally different than Catholics do. The Lutheran understanding is correct. There is no way that the Lutherans can compromise with Catholics on this doctrine. The teachings are totally different.
EDIT: Seeing some of the strong reactions, I’m going to go back and read it again, but my first impression was that the Catholic Church really defined their viewpoint to encompas a more Lutheran view.
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CopticChristian
Guest
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Prosmith
Guest
I don’t think he is saying anything that is out of school. I am an ex cradle Catholic and I had precisely this same discussion with my parish priest approx. 10 years ago and he said himself that grace alone by faith alone was heretical. JPeter and I both know that this is wrong. To stay in God’s grace requires work from the Holy Spirit that far exceeds what we can do for ourselves. It is because of the cross that we HAVE ALREADY been saved.
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enickman
Guest
Your priest was correct. Please allow me to explain this in the simplest terms possible:
- Jesus died for our salvation.
- No amount of good works are enough to attain the grace we have been given because of Christ’s death.
- Through our bad works (sin) we can lose that grace for ourselves.
- We have been instructed to love one another, this is considered a good work, though by itself isn’t enough to earn us salvation.
- We are supposed to have faith. But only living by believing and ignoring our sins (bad works) we can lose the grace that has been given to us. Just as Adam and Eve lost their grace by disobeying God.
- We are judged by our faith and our works.
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JPeter
Guest
So Justification is not a process?
J
JPeter
Guest
Your priest was correct. Please allow me to explain this in the simplest terms possible:
You keep missing the point. Just because you don’t use the word “earn” does not change the reality of what you are doing. The Catholic church teaches that Justification is a process. This process according to Roman Catholics involves your actions along with Gods action. So your justification moves away from what Jesus has done for you and onto what your doing. Once salvation becomes something that I do (even in part) it ceases to be a free gift and becomes something I have earned or deserve. I am not trying to be rude but help me to understand how you don’t believe in works righteousness? its like saying that Jesus died on the cross so that I could now try to act like a good person. Or like Jesus threw me the rope and did some of it, but I held on and got myself to safety. Jesus rescued us He did it all. It’s not about us.Philippians 2 :12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
enickman,
You keep missing the point. Just because you don’t use the word “earn” does not change the reality of what you are doing. The Catholic church teaches that Justification is a process. This process according to Roman Catholics involves your actions along with Gods action. So your justification moves away from what Jesus has done for you and onto what your doing. Once salvation becomes something that I do (even in part) it ceases to be a free gift and becomes something I have earned or deserve. I am not trying to be rude but help me to understand how you don’t believe in works righteousness? its like saying that Jesus died on the cross so that I could now try to act like a good person. Or like Jesus threw me the rope and did some of it, but I held on and got myself to safety. Jesus rescued us He did it all. It’s not about us.Philippians 2 :12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
J
JPeter
Guest
The Lutheran view of sola fide is completely inline with the Anglican formularies. We would not go as far as your confessions do in everything though. With that being said I believe the Lutheran confessions are mostly correct. Like the Lutheran Confessions are binding for Lutherans, the Anglican formularies are binding for Anglicans. If an Anglican denies sola fide, then he is not an Anglican. There are a lot of Churches that have the Anglican name on the outside but not the Anglican faith on the inside.
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cmforte
Guest
Actually, enickman is 100% correct. You’re just not understanding. We don’t work FOR salvation. But we “work” to KEEP salvation. Unless you believe in “once saved, always saved,” which we don’t. I can go ahead and quote a whole lot of Scripture if you want.Your priest was correct. Please allow me to explain this in the simplest terms possible:
enickman,
You keep missing the point. Just because you don’t use the word “earn” does not change the reality of what you are doing. The Catholic church teaches that Justification is a process. This process according to Roman Catholics involves your actions along with Gods action. So your justification moves away from what Jesus has done for you and onto what your doing. Once salvation becomes something that I do (even in part) it ceases to be a free gift and becomes something I have earned or deserve. I am not trying to be rude but help me to understand how you don’t believe in works righteousness? its like saying that Jesus died on the cross so that I could now try to act like a good person. Or like Jesus threw me the rope and did some of it, but I held on and got myself to safety. Jesus rescued us He did it all. It’s not about us.Philippians 2 :12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
-Chris
- Status