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justasking4
Guest
Have you checked with what Hahn teaches with what other catholic scholars teach? If so, do they all agree?
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guanophore
Guest
I believe that questions such as this are an effort on your part to create and foment dissension. Perhaps it bothers you that Catholics have unity, and you are trying to put disagreements among individual Catholics on par with disagreements among Protestants?
The unity that exists in Catholicism is not based on scholars. It is based on the teaching of Jesus Christ through His Apostles.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
There are parallels between my own household and the book of Revelation.
Be careful what you say, because I would agree that you and your household are mentioned, or paralleled in the book of Revelations.
It doesn’t mean my house or the mass is expressed in the Apocalypse.
I find your comments unreasonable, because you make statements of disagreements with 20th century thought, on a subject that surpasses time. Fascinating, can you support your negative responses to 2000 years of Catholic teaching on the subject at hand.
The book isn’t a history book like Catholic’s believe.
You see, this is what I am getting at, you make an untrue statement about the Cathlolic church believing the book of Revelations is a history book. That is nonesense. The Catholic Church does not teach it to be a history book, in its full context. Please dont make false accusations of the bride of Christ, If you cant back them up. We are all free to offer our opinions here, but dont lie about what the other teaches without finding out first from the one your accusing. Let Truth and Freedom Ring.
And it has nothing to do with the mass.
**I can understand your position from not knowing about the Mass revealed in the apocalypse, as I dont know your interpretation of the Book of Revelations. So this is a great opportunity for all of us to learn from each other.
Enclosing, The Catholic Church does not teach the Apocalypse to be a book of history only, She teaches all of the following, History, Present, Future, and Eternal, is a more accurate statement. Besides, I agree with you one cannot teach Revelations in a statement, It will take much more than a scholary explanation, It has to be lived. **
Could you please give us your summary of the book of Revelations, without giving false accusations of the Catholic churches teachings.
May the peace of the Lord be with you
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guanophore
Guest
I find this shocking!
" … Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. Heb 4:14-15
Are you so anti-Catholic in your thinking that you do not even think of Jesus as a priest?
Do you think that people who are ordained as priests stop being priests when they die? Is there ordination “erased”?
Where do you think the priests are that died, if they are not in heaven?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Yes I have read many interpretations of Revelations, Catholic and Protestant. And they all are interesting, and have different opinions, Which is very good. Although, When it comes to their meanings and belief, the Catholic Church possesses the authority to which I might add , all the Catholic scholar though different in opinions, they all submit to the authority teaching of the Catholic Church, that is what is taught to her children.
J
justasking4
Guest
I’m challenging the claims that are made by catholics. The problem is that when you look closely at the facts the claims fail.
This is a myth. There is just as much disuntiy in the catholic church as there is in protestant churches.
J
justasking4
Guest
guanophore;3301149]I find this shocking!
i misspoke. Yes Jesus is the only high priest we have in heaven. Thanks for point that out and correcting me.Are you so anti-Catholic in your thinking that you do not even think of Jesus as a priest?
Until the judgement i don’t know.
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guanophore
Guest
No, ja4, at least own your own perceptions. When ja4 looks at the claims they fail (blinders again!). Many of us have looked at the claims and come to a different conclusion.
On the contrary, ja4, it is a mystery. One which you have, as yet, been unable to grasp. You don’t seem to understand that there is a difference between the One, HOly, Catholic and Apostolic Church, that Holy and inerrant Bride of Christ, and the faillible and errant members which are joined to her. Yes, among individual (many only so-called) Catholics there is a great deal of disagreement. But, they are not the Church. The true Church is made up of those who are joined in complete unity with the Apostolic Teachings that have been handed down to us from Jesus. Those that do not hold to the teachings ARE NOT CATHOLIC! They have protested some or most of the doctrine,and have left the faith.
S
Special_Ed
Guest
Actually, it is you who enlightens us because it is your claim, not mine. It’s easy to prove wrong. The word Apocalypse proves you wrong.Please Special , enlighten us , you deny the liturgies in heaven revealed in the book of Revelations, What is your interpretation? You write as if one with authority on the subject, so please give us your interpretation. Besides how can you deny what you dont know?
Please what is your take on the book of Revelation? is it fiction, or non fiction?
I was raised Catholic and don’t deny that many of the items we find described by John in heaven are found in the mass. The mass may have some parallels and similarities. The mass may have been modeled after many of these things but that doesn’t mean that the mass is prophecied because devil worshippers use many of the same items and practices.
Apocalypse:
Revelation in latin is revelatio, in Greek apokalupsis, from which the english word “apocalypse” is derived. It means…
**a disclosureof of that which was previously hidden or unknown. **
William Barclay said,
“Revelation is always dealing with events about which no human being knows, and to express things which are beyond human words and speech to express”.
The main purpose of the book is to provide us with some insight into what the conditions of the end woulld be like at the comsummation of history, (age of grace) and return of Jesus Christ. It has no prophetic significance to the mass.
SE
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
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EHRAM
Guest
The OP asked if a Protestant had noted the similarities between Revelation and the Mass. I gave Hahn as one example. I did not claim that he was the first to notice these similarities. This incident was one of several steps in his conversion. His story is available on CD via the Mary Foundation for a small donation as well as from other sources.
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EHRAM
Guest
Why do you allege that the mass is a man-made event rather than a sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
EHRAM, I am sorry if my post was offensive, my intentions were not to offend any one, least of all, you. I was not trying to indicate what you said to be incorrect, I was just adding to your thought, for that, I take what I said back, and ask you to forgive me.
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EHRAM
Guest
Gabriel,EHRAM, I am sorry if my post was offensive, my intentions were not to offend any one, least of all, you. I was not trying to indicate what you said to be incorrect, I was just adding to your thought, for that, I take what I said back, and ask you to forgive me.
Gabriel,
I wasn’t offended. I just thought that clarification of my post might be in order.
I hope I have not offended you. Please forgive me if I have.
H
heatherjean
Guest
Here is a chart from Scott Hahn’s (Catholic convert) book The Lamb’s Supper on the Shared Elements in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Book of Revelation:
Sunday Worship Rev 1:10
High Priest Rev 1:12
An Altar Rev 8:3-4, 11:1, 14:8
Priests Rev 4:4, 11:15, 14:3, 19:4
Vestments Rev 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14
Consecrated celibacy Rev 14:4
Lamp stands (menorah) Rev 1:12, 2:5
Penitence Rev chapters 2-3
Incense Rev 5:8, 8:3-5
The Book or Scroll Rev 5:1
Eucharistic Host Rev 2:17
Chalices Rev 15:7, ch 16, 21:9
Sign of the Cross (Tau) Rev 7:3, 14:1, 22:4
Gloria Rev 15:3-4
Alleluia Rev 19:1, 19:3, 19:4, 19:6
Lift up your hearts Rev11:12
“Holy, Holy, Holy” Rev 4:8
Amen Rev 19:4, 22:21
Lamb of God Rev 5:6 and throughout
Prominence of the Virgin Mary Rev 12:1-6, 12:13-17
Intercession of angels and saints Rev 5:8, 6:9-10, 8:3-4
Devotion th Saint Michael the Archangel Rev 12:7
Antphonal chant Rev 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8
Reading from Scripture Rev chapters 2-3, 5, 8:2-11
Priesthood of faithful Rev 1:6, 20:6
Catholicity or universality Rev 7:9
Silent contemplation Rev 8:1
Marriage Supper of the Lamb Rev 19:9, 19:17
There are similarities between the mass of the Catholic Church and the Book of Revelation. As the first Christians worship has continued on until present day with the same basic format. I am a convert to Catholicism, but as a Protestant I was unaware of the similarities between the modern mass and the ancient Christians
because the church I attended condemned the Catholic Church with all of it’s “man made traditions”. The reality was that very few of its members knew anything about the Catholic Church except what they had been told. When I read the book of Acts and Revelation and the early church fathers I began to see how the early Christians worshipped and it was more like the Catholic Church than the Protestant denominations that each have their own beliefs and interpretations that they consider right.
Sunday Worship Rev 1:10
High Priest Rev 1:12
An Altar Rev 8:3-4, 11:1, 14:8
Priests Rev 4:4, 11:15, 14:3, 19:4
Vestments Rev 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14
Consecrated celibacy Rev 14:4
Lamp stands (menorah) Rev 1:12, 2:5
Penitence Rev chapters 2-3
Incense Rev 5:8, 8:3-5
The Book or Scroll Rev 5:1
Eucharistic Host Rev 2:17
Chalices Rev 15:7, ch 16, 21:9
Sign of the Cross (Tau) Rev 7:3, 14:1, 22:4
Gloria Rev 15:3-4
Alleluia Rev 19:1, 19:3, 19:4, 19:6
Lift up your hearts Rev11:12
“Holy, Holy, Holy” Rev 4:8
Amen Rev 19:4, 22:21
Lamb of God Rev 5:6 and throughout
Prominence of the Virgin Mary Rev 12:1-6, 12:13-17
Intercession of angels and saints Rev 5:8, 6:9-10, 8:3-4
Devotion th Saint Michael the Archangel Rev 12:7
Antphonal chant Rev 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8
Reading from Scripture Rev chapters 2-3, 5, 8:2-11
Priesthood of faithful Rev 1:6, 20:6
Catholicity or universality Rev 7:9
Silent contemplation Rev 8:1
Marriage Supper of the Lamb Rev 19:9, 19:17
There are similarities between the mass of the Catholic Church and the Book of Revelation. As the first Christians worship has continued on until present day with the same basic format. I am a convert to Catholicism, but as a Protestant I was unaware of the similarities between the modern mass and the ancient Christians
because the church I attended condemned the Catholic Church with all of it’s “man made traditions”. The reality was that very few of its members knew anything about the Catholic Church except what they had been told. When I read the book of Acts and Revelation and the early church fathers I began to see how the early Christians worshipped and it was more like the Catholic Church than the Protestant denominations that each have their own beliefs and interpretations that they consider right.
C
Cathy_G
Guest
Here are some helpful scripture verses relating the two,that I found on a Catholic website
f). The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass
The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
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f). The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass
The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord’s day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as “alter Christuses” (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God’s word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven’s description of Jesus as the “Lamb” is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross (“tau”) in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase “come up here” is similar to the priest’s charge to “lift up your hearts” at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven’s emphasis on the Archangel Michael’s intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the “Gloria” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the “Alleluia” in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
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