Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

[brb3]

Where do you find it in WRITING that the baptism of John was efficacious? (from Catholic sources)

Catholics accept ALL of scripture. We don’t discriminate.

Now, did Christ ‘rebaptize’ his 12 … with water ? Ans. NO ! With his H.S. …? YES !

No different than what our Priests [or laity] do today. Man submerses in H20, and asks Christ to Baptize the soul with his H.S.

 

[brb3]

Really?

It’s just obediance, that’s it.

Better to know what Baptists believe before you make statements like this.

Really !! :knight2:

Southern Baptists are very dogmatic on necessity of Water Baptism … by man. With Christ washing the Soul clean & instilling H.S. within. I know they call it Imputation of Grace … but, they just have a vocabulary problem. What they believe is more akin to INFUSION.

And, yes … they do believe we are ODEDIENT in following the SACRAMENT. :yup:

Listen to some of Billy Graham’s evangelical sermons. You will see what he teaches on the matter.

 

[brb3]

After checking with several Baptist pastors in this area from Southern baptist to Independent Bible believing Baptists I have yet to find ONE that feels that Baptism is a sacrament but as you state an ordinance and part of entrance right into the church because of it being obedience to the commands of Christ. But in all fairness brb3 did say “Should call it a sacrament” so this says to me that brb3 is trying to justify Baptist thought with Catholic; the two do not mix here either…

Exactly, they call it an ORDINANCE, but view it in SACRAMENTAL terms. If the Catholic Church wasn’t already using the term Sacrament, they would probably select that word to better imply what they mean/believe about Baptism.

Remember, the Protestants had many ‘beefs’ against the Church … it will take a few more decades to break down these old barriers. Education is the solution, and better apologetics, and more Catholic understanding would be a big help …

 

[brb3]

Why would anyone want to be a Baptist, with all due respect, if it is believed that the Lord’s Supper IS NOT necessary for salvation;

I agree their theology is weak on the Eucharist. Indeed it is errant, since it is viewed as ‘symbolic’ … with only ‘spiritual’ benefits at best. They don’t believe it is the actual Body/Blood of Christ. But, they do believe Christ’s H.S. graces those who receive the Lord’s Supper.

So, they are partially right & partially wrong. Just as the Catholic Church teaches … they need the fully sacramental graces the Church offers. So, we must show them those errors in their soteriology.

 

[brb3]

The baptism of John is not the same thing as Christian baptism. That’s why Paul had to rebaptize those disciples who had only received the baptism of John. Why? Because the baptism of John was not a sacrament. The Council of Trent clearly states:

CANON I.-If any one saith, that the baptism of John had the same force as the baptism of Christ; let him be anathema.

The baptism of John did not effect regeneration.

The Council was speaking to those in its DAY. They were not passing judgment on John and those he had baptized.

Did Christ baptize John, with water ? NO. Yet we know John was the GREATEST of those Born of Woman. Because he was Baptized from the womb with Spirit of Christ. So, ultimately John was baptized by Christ, just not the way some of you think of baptism and your/my dogma.

 

[brb3]

Check out Finney’s statement here:

He intended the anxious seat/invitation/sinner’s prayer to replace Baptism. Which it has in evangelical/fundamentalist churches. So, in a sense, it is a ‘Baptist sacrament’ in the embryonic sense of the word, but they do not look at it that way. They have taken the supernatual elements (which Episcopals agree with as well) away from the traditional Sacraments and* created* thier own “sacrament” they insist is supernatural, though they deny this reality to Sacramental christians.

I agree … they have it half right. Think of it guys/gals, …w/o a valid priesthood, how could they be fully right, or fully sacramental ? They are like Apollos and his 11 friends … yet, Paul welcomed them— and taught them the FULLER TRUTHS.

 

[brb3]

Don’t you remember brb3 thinks Trent only applies to priests. Despite the fact that many “If anyone says” statements run rampant through it.

You are being facetious . I was simply making the point to FrJohn that the priesthood first got a Catholic Catechism @ time of Trent, and the laity much latter with St. Pius.

So, the Church has relied on SS and Tradition … for the lion’s share of her history.

 

[brb3]

John the Baptist him self disagree’s with you sir:

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=1&l=8&f=s#x

The only effcacious baptism in Christian terms is that one which is with the Holy Ghost. It forever marks your soul for Christ…

John the Baptist’s baptism never did this, it was merely a ritual washing.

It did exactly was Christ desired it to do ! Indeed, Christ desired it of John !!!

It did exactly what Peter tells us in his Epistle on Baptism … ‘its an appeal to God, to wash our Souls and INFUSE his H.S. into us’

Noah & familty did this, Naaman of OT times did this, John the Baptist receive H.S. in waters of the womb in the INTERTESTAMENT times, John’s baptized converts also were blessed by Christ. Later, Christ taught his Apostles what he desired for their age and our NEW TESTAMENT age.

 

[brb3]

You are 100% correct that John’s baptism was not for regeneration, to say otherwise would be to add foreign teachings and dogma to the Catholic Church.

What is a Baptism of repentance ? … if not to bring about REGENERATION of the soul, and bring GRACE to those who received the SACRAMENT rightly.

 

[brb3]

Well guys. I really miss these discussions. I’ll be out of pocket for a few weeks–

I miss you all, and I miss our discussions. Be back in a few weeks.

You go girl

I’ll keep them honest while you’re away, and praying the Sinner’s Prayer.

 

[FrJohnB]

We know John pointed his disciples to Jesus - when they asked him if Jesus was the Messiah. John was soon captured by Herod, and died the martyr’s death for bearing witness to Jesus as the Christ, and also telling Herod he was a adulterer.

So, it is almost certain that Apollos, and his 11 friends, were converts/disciples of John before he baptised Jesus and was using his pre-Christian baptismal rites.

So, your proof above won’t hold up.

With all due respect PadreJ is spot on in his translation and exegesis. If you are going to be Catholic you must also abide by what the Catholic church has already ruled on the subject, That the baptism of John was NOT the same or the same force as Christian baptism. To read into this as YOU are doing is to add heretical teaching to Catholic dogma.

 

[FrJohnB]

God can do anything, for anyone. I’ve made much progress toward a better understanding/acceptance of Catholic dogma. I’ll admit I’m in a ‘dogmatic’ transition …

Nevertheless, I’m a few days ahead of you — re: Catholic conversion. Come join me in being fully confirmed in All [most] of Catholic Dogma

Funny, Padrej who is an Anglican can quote Catholic dogma better than you so how do you think you are farther ahead?

 

[FrJohnB]

Really !! :knight2:

Southern Baptists are very dogmatic on necessity of Water Baptism … by man. With Christ washing the Soul clean & instilling H.S. within. I know they call it Imputation of Grace … but, they just have a vocabulary problem. What they believe is more akin to INFUSION.

And, yes … they do believe we are ODEDIENT in following the SACRAMENT. :yup:

Listen to some of Billy Graham’s evangelical sermons. You will see what he teaches on the matter.

Funny the baptist belief website does not agree with what you are saying. The baptists do not have the same view as Catholics do on sacraments and yet you insist that they do or as you say “ought to.” When you were a Baptist did you also try to impose strange dogmas there too? They have ORDINANCES not sacraments.

BTW Billy Graham is NOT a Catholic so why would we want to listen to him?

 

[FrJohnB]

The Council was speaking to those in its DAY. They were not passing judgment on John and those he had baptized.

Did Christ baptize John, with water ? NO. Yet we know John was the GREATEST of those Born of Woman. Because he was Baptized from the womb with Spirit of Christ. So, ultimately John was baptized by Christ, just not the way some of you think of baptism and your/my dogma.

So now you are calling the Council of Trent liars and that Vatican II which does still recognize Trent as VALID teachings also Liars. Your words quite frankly are ones of a person who is attacking the Catholic Church.
Where are you getting from Catholic teaching that John was baptized in the womb??? The Bible clearly states the Spirit of Elijah was upon him (John) so if that was the spirit on him why do you claim otherwise?

 

[FrJohnB]

What is a Baptism of repentance ? … if not to bring about REGENERATION of the soul, and bring GRACE to those who received the SACRAMENT rightly.

Only the baptism of Christ in the name of the Trinity brings regeneration.
The Baptism of repentance is a RITUAL showing that you are turning from sin and made clean through a ceremonial washing.
Once again let me cite Trent Cannon 1 on Baptism.
***Canon 1. If anyone says that the baptism of John had the same effect as the baptism of Christ, let him be anathema.

---

This is why adding the interpretation that you are doing here puts your soul in mortal danger as being an anathema to the church. The Baptism of John IS NOT a sacrament and never will be. THE REASON: You cannot regenerate someone via repentance. Repentance is only the turning away of a sin. A non believer can choose to stop committing a particular act but that does not make him/her regenerated only less sinful.

 

[Padrej]

It did exactly was Christ desired it to do ! Indeed, Christ desired it of John !!!

It did exactly what Peter tells us in his Epistle on Baptism … ‘its an appeal to God, to wash our Souls and INFUSE his H.S. into us’

Noah & familty did this, Naaman of OT times did this, John the Baptist receive H.S. in waters of the womb in the INTERTESTAMENT times, John’s baptized converts also were blessed by Christ. Later, Christ taught his Apostles what he desired for their age and our NEW TESTAMENT age.

What out of left field theology class did you learn John received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the womb? Christ desired to be baptized of John “to fulfill ALL righteousness” (or Justice as the Douay says). I have yet to see a Catholic or Protestant commentary that says what you are trying to get us all to espouse. Quite frankly you are starting to sound like Benny Hinn making up theology as he goes to fit the needs of the time. Last I checked he was not Catholic nor was Billy Graham that you also site.

 

[Padrej]

We know John pointed his disciples to Jesus - when they asked him if Jesus was the Messiah. John was soon captured by Herod, and died the martyr’s death for bearing witness to Jesus as the Christ, and also telling Herod he was a adulterer.

So, it is almost certain that Apollos, and his 11 friends, were converts/disciples of John before he baptised Jesus and was using his pre-Christian baptismal rites.

So, your proof above won’t hold up.

Funny you left out that John sent disciples to Jesus while he was in prison (before being executed) asking “Are you the Christ or should we seek another” then Jesus responds with “Go and tell John…” Now IF John pointed his disciples towards Christ HOW does he still have disciples while still being in prison LONG after the Baptism of Jesus?

In the Acts passage in question it mentioned that John did point others to Christ so obviously John’s baptism was STILL different. As the council of Trent says, the Baptism of John was NOT the same effect of regeneration as Christ’s baptism, even I as a Protestant believes that and I hope that you who profess to be Catholic would also. Regeneration and repentance are two different animals. As Fr John points out a non believer can repent of an action but he/she is NOT regenerated.

 

[Padrej]

God can do anything, for anyone. I’ve made much progress toward a better understanding/acceptance of Catholic dogma. I’ll admit I’m in a ‘dogmatic’ transition …

Nevertheless, I’m a few days ahead of you — re: Catholic conversion. Come join me in being fully confirmed in All [most] of Catholic Dogma

Just remember the words of Scripture that is very applicable here: “Pride goes before the fall.”

 

[Padrej]

Funny you left out that John sent disciples to Jesus while he was in prison (before being executed) asking “Are you the Christ or should we seek another” then Jesus responds with “Go and tell John…” Now IF John pointed his disciples towards Christ HOW does he still have disciples while still being in prison LONG after the Baptism of Jesus?

In the Acts passage in question it mentioned that John did point others to Christ so obviously John’s baptism was STILL different. As the council of Trent says, the Baptism of John was NOT the same effect of regeneration as Christ’s baptism, even I as a Protestant believes that and I hope that you who profess to be Catholic would also. Regeneration and repentance are two different animals. As Fr John points out a non believer can repent of an action but he/she is NOT regenerated.

You are also forgetting it was** not because of the witness of Christ** but only for condemning Herodias that John was imprisoned. See Matthew 14:3 so you are also adding to scripture here. Did you not know that there is a curse on those who add or take away from Scripture?

 

[JustaServant]

Funny the baptist belief website does not agree with what you are saying. The baptists do not have the same view as Catholics do on sacraments and yet you insist that they do or as you say “ought to.” When you were a Baptist did you also try to impose strange dogmas there too? They have ORDINANCES not sacraments.

BTW Billy Graham is NOT a Catholic so why would we want to listen to him?

Boy, I’m sure glad BRB is here to tell me what I beleived when I was a BAPTIST PREACHER. I must not have known what I was talking about.:doh2: And obviously neither were the other BAPTIST pastors and lay people I associated with for TWENTY YEARS. And I guess the other historical Baptists got it wrong too.
You ever get the idea talking to brb is :banghead:?