Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

[FrJohnB]

Boy, I’m sure glad BRB is here to tell me what I beleived when I was a BAPTIST PREACHER. I must not have known what I was talking about.:doh2: And obviously neither were the other BAPTIST pastors and lay people I associated with for TWENTY YEARS. And I guess the other historical Baptists got it wrong too.
You ever get the idea talking to brb is :banghead:?

In my opinion from what I have observed of the posts, BRB is attempting to justify being in the wrong church for years and in doing so is bringing the Protestant beliefs into Catholicism and it just does not fly. Quite frankly as I have stated it puts her soul in mortal danger of becoming an anathema.

 

[FrJohnB]

We know John pointed his disciples to Jesus - when they asked him if Jesus was the Messiah. John was soon captured by Herod, and died the martyr’s death for bearing witness to Jesus as the Christ, and also telling Herod he was a adulterer.

So, it is almost certain that Apollos, and his 11 friends, were converts/disciples of John before he baptised Jesus and was using his pre-Christian baptismal rites.

So, your proof above won’t hold up.

OK you seems to claim scripture only as final authority, where does it say that John died for bearing witness to Jesus as the Christ, chapter and verse please. You will find that he was killed for pointing out the sins of Herodias and Herod.

Where also in scripture do you get that Apollos and the other 11 were converts/disciples of John before he baptized Jesus and using Pre-Christian Baptismal rites, chapter and verse please.

 

[Padrej]

Boy, I’m sure glad BRB is here to tell me what I beleived when I was a BAPTIST PREACHER. I must not have known what I was talking about.:doh2: And obviously neither were the other BAPTIST pastors and lay people I associated with for TWENTY YEARS. And I guess the other historical Baptists got it wrong too.
You ever get the idea talking to brb is :banghead:?

In my experience with the Baptist church I too have yet to run into ANY of the doctrine that BRB3 is espousing here. In Brb’s defense maybe the Lord gave a supernatural revelation that contradicts all teachings of the Church both Protestant and Catholic so that Brb3 alone would become the next doctor of the church.
I will watch EWTN to see of the Holy Father makes BRB3 such. That way we all can benefit from the Divine Wisdom that is spewing forth on salvation and Baptism.

 

[crazzeto]

I almost hate to suggest it, but is this thread starting to run it’s course? I mean it was awesome for a while there, but now it’s basically just brb3 trying to convince both Catholics and Protestant’s that they’re both wrong and that he alone has the true doctrine.

I’m all for trying to correct his beliefs which are very dangerous and most certainly have the ability to lead one to perdition, but I just don’t know if anyone is going to make headway. I think Justin hit the nail on the head.

Edit
Brb3, I’m not sure why you’re continuing along these erroneous lines, do you truely believe this or are you just more interested in not being wrong? Consider this, in my own life I’ve commited a host of grave offences against the Lord of which I’m not proud… If Father John or Padrej were to admonish me for say, pre-maritial relations what should my proper response be?

Accept their admonishment as a loving correction of my going off the beaten path and trying to correct my life for the love of Jesus Christ, Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?

Or go digging through scriptures trying to bolster a case along the lines of “well if you’re in love then it’s OK :”

 

[Padrej]

I almost hate to suggest it, but is this thread starting to run it’s course? I mean it was awesome for a while there, but now it’s basically just brb3 trying to convince both Catholics and Protestant’s that they’re both wrong and that he alone has the true doctrine.

I’m all for trying to correct his beliefs which are very dangerous and most certainly have the ability to lead one to perdition, but I just don’t know if anyone is going to make headway. I think Justin hit the nail on the head.

Edit
Brb3, I’m not sure why you’re continuing along these erroneous lines, do you truely believe this or are you just more interested in not being wrong? Consider this, in my own life I’ve commited a host of grave offences against the Lord of which I’m not proud… If Father John or Padrej were to admonish me for say, pre-maritial relations what should my proper response be?

Accept their admonishment as a loving correction of my going off the beaten path and trying to correct my life for the love of Jesus Christ, Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world?

Or go digging through scriptures trying to bolster a case along the lines of “well if you’re in love then it’s OK :”

I wonder if a shift would help. I posted to this thread a reference to Fr Corby of the Irish Brigade during the Civil War using a form of a sinner’s prayer to lead a convert to Christ. I wonder if any Catholics out there use a form of Sinner’s prayer to lead one to Christ.
I know that my Catholic Aunt is heavily involved in prison ministry and uses a form to lead souls to Christ and then teaches them Catholic Doctrine when they ask for it. She would not be allowed to say, “Do you want to be Catholic” but rather to use a general “sinner’s prayer” and THEN show Catholic doctrine. My question is this, Are there any Catholics involved in prison ministry that do this also?

I agree we seem to be spinning our wheels here on the baptism issue.

 

[crazzeto]

I can agree that some general form of “a sinners prayer” isn’t necessarly a bad thing and can be a useful tool as you describe Pardej. The problem comes in with the theology of the sinners prayer, and the fact that the sinners prayer is wrapped up in it.

There’s nothing wrong with getting someone to pray “Lord I’m a sinner deserving of hell with out you, please lead me into your Salvation”, in fact I think some form of this concept should always be on our minds as Christians. In fact, Our Lady of Fatima gave us Catholics a broad sinners prayer for Christians to pray:

“Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of your mercy. Amen.”

The difference here, is the lack of finality. As long as we’re not telling people that they are saved after this prayer, I think it’s fine.

 

[mikeledes]

The Council was speaking to those in its DAY. They were not passing judgment on John and those he had baptized.

Did Christ baptize John, with water ? NO. Yet we know John was the GREATEST of those Born of Woman. Because he was Baptized from the womb with Spirit of Christ. So, ultimately John was baptized by Christ, just not the way some of you think of baptism and your/my dogma.

The Council of Trent is declaring that the claim that the baptism of John is in any way equal to the baptism of John as a heresy. It’s not talking about the a baptism received by John, but the baptism He administered to others. That baptism is not the same as Christian baptism.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[JustaServant]

In my opinion from what I have observed of the posts, BRB is attempting to justify being in the wrong church for years and in doing so is bringing the Protestant beliefs into Catholicism and it just does not fly. Quite frankly as I have stated it puts her soul in mortal danger of becoming an anathema.

I worked with a guy in the past year who is a Baptist. We actually had a lot in common politically and religiously. But me being Catholic, and him being Baptist, there was still volumes of differences. At one point he asked me what I thought about the ‘ecumenical movement’. I told him when it comes to social or moral issues, Catholics and Baptists should stand together. BUT, we should not pretend the differences in our doctrine are meaningless. The differences in doctrine are just too sharp. He absolutely agreed with that.
Religious pluralism makes liars out of both Catholics and Baptists.

 

[Padrej]

I can agree that some general form of “a sinners prayer” isn’t necessarly a bad thing and can be a useful tool as you describe Pardej. The problem comes in with the theology of the sinners prayer, and the fact that the sinners prayer is wrapped up in it.

There’s nothing wrong with getting someone to pray “Lord I’m a sinner deserving of hell with out you, please lead me into your Salvation”, in fact I think some form of this concept should always be on our minds as Christians. In fact, Our Lady of Fatima gave us Catholics a broad sinners prayer for Christians to pray:

“Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of your mercy. Amen.”

The difference here, is the lack of finality. As long as we’re not telling people that they are saved after this prayer, I think it’s fine.

I liked the our lady of Fatima prayer and I like that it does not tell the person “you are assured” of something that you are not assured of.

 

[brb3]

you are starting to sound like Benny Hinn making up theology as he goes to fit the needs of the time. Last I checked he was not Catholic

Benny Hinn He does teach the Sinner’s Prayer … and claims to have been visited by angels & had several personal revelations from God. A very interesting & intertaining fellow. Last I saw the data, there were probably as many Protestant Christians as Catholic. I’d love to see Benny Hinn convert to Catholicism … and same goes for all the Anglicans. Pope Benedict is smoothing the way for you to come back to the Faith of your Fathers.

 

[brb3]

What out of left field theology class did you learn John received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the womb? Christ desired to be baptized of John “to fulfill ALL righteousness” (or Justice as the Douay says).

“Filled with the H.S. from the womb” … so says the N.T. scriptures. Are you suggesting John received the H.S. w/o first being Baptized [by Christ] ?

 

[brb3]

John sent disciples to Jesus while he was in prison (before being executed) asking “Are you the Christ or should we seek another” then Jesus responds with “Go and tell John…” Now IF John pointed his disciples towards Christ HOW does he still have disciples while still being in prison LONG after the Baptism of Jesus?

Yes, he had MANY disciples [converts via Sinner’s Prayer of Repentance & water Baptism] , … just not ‘fulltime’ Apostles as did Christ.

 

[brb3]

Just remember the words of Scripture that is very applicable here: “Pride goes before the fall.”

We all have some degree of pride. Hopefully, pride in our Lord and his Church is paramount. Nothing cleans us of our unrighteous pride like the Sinner’s Prayer … causing all to ‘fall’ to our knees … in confession.

 

[brb3]

You are also forgetting it was** not because of the witness of Christ** but only for condemning Herodias that John was imprisoned. See Matthew 14:3 so you are also adding to scripture here. Did you not know that there is a curse on those who add or take away from Scripture?

Padrej …

John’s whole mission was devoted to proclaiming the coming of the Messiah … a fulltime ‘witness’ / evangelism. Did I mis-characterize John’s testimony and earn an Anglican curse ?

 

[brb3]

In my experience with the Baptist church I too have yet to run into ANY of the doctrine that BRB3 is espousing here. In Brb’s defense maybe the Lord gave a supernatural revelation that contradicts all teachings of the Church both Protestant and Catholic

Padrej —

I left the Baptist Church … and am now a Catholic convert. Yes, I did receive a ‘supernatural’ revelation … that being the Catholic Church is the “fullness of the Christian faith”. Lets hope I’m only a few days ahead of you in this regard …

 

[brb3]

Boy, I’m sure glad BRB is here to tell me what I beleived when I was a BAPTIST PREACHER. I must not have known what I was talking about.:doh2: And obviously neither were the other BAPTIST pastors and lay people I associated with for TWENTY YEARS. And I guess the other historical Baptists got it wrong too.
You ever get the idea talking to brb is :banghead:?

Hey, I was raised in the Baptist Church … you were only a jonny-come-lately Baptist.

A question for you … Why did you leave the Catholic Church ? What was it about the Baptist faith that convinced you to leave your ROOTS ? Apparently you didn’t believe your early Catholic faith, … then, later you didn’t believe your Protestant dogma.

You’ve switched sides twice … I only once …

 

[brb3]

BRB is attempting to justify being in the wrong church for years and in doing so is bringing the Protestant beliefs into Catholicism and it just does not fly. Quite frankly as I have stated it puts her soul in mortal danger of becoming an anathema.

You joining Justaservant in attempting to be a ‘psychotherapist’ ?

You Catholics better pay heed to the teachings of the recent/current Popes on Ecumenistic efforts to the Protestants Christians. One would think a Priest and a former Protestant Pastor would be more attuned to bringing in the harvest, not standing in judgment of those Christ has lead to the Catholic fold. :sad_yes:

 

[brb3]

The Council of Trent is declaring that the claim that the baptism of John is in any way equal to the baptism of John as a heresy. It’s not talking about the a baptism received by John, but the baptism He administered to others. That baptism is not the same as Christian baptism.

I agree. Trent was not saying the John’s Baptism was not efficacious, but that Christ’s baptism superceded it. John taught that “he who comes after me will baptize you with the Spirit and with Fire”. Paul knew Apollos had not yet received the H.S. Clearly the NT baptism taught by Christ supercedes John’s.

We all have our limits … John knew his limitations ! Nevertheless, Christ honored John’s baptism … and desired it for himself, in order to ‘confirm’ John as the great Prophet who would point to the coming Messiah. John baptized with water, the Father baptizes with the H.S. & Fire … through Christ.

 

[brb3]

Benny Hinn … yes, an Entertaining fellow … I think he is legit … not a false shepherd.

 

[FrJohnB]

You joining Justaservant in attempting to be a ‘psychotherapist’ ?

You Catholics better pay heed to the teachings of the recent/current Popes on Ecumenistic efforts to the Protestants Christians. One would think a Priest and a former Protestant Pastor would be more attuned to bringing in the harvest, not standing in judgment of those Christ has lead to the Catholic fold. :sad_yes:

Nobody is standing in judgment of you your words and beliefs are as being against those of Catholicism. As to the priest and former Protestant minister you refer to, Padrej who is not Catholic espouses more Catholic Doctrine than you.
BTW the former Pope John Paul II was far more ecumenical than the current one.