Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

[PJM]

Protestants: Sinner’s Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

I am a former Baptist, visiting an Episcopal Church. I know that most Baptists and many other Protestant Christians believe one must pray some form of what is called the “Sinner’s Prayer” to receive salvation.

For those who believe in the Sinner’s Prayer:

(1.) What elements must the Sinner’s Prayer contain?

(2.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that assure salvation immediately and forever, even before judgment?

Not according to Jesus Christ…

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

or

(3.) If all the elements of the Sinner’s Prayer are prayed, with a sincere heart, does that place a person on the path to salvation, without assurance of salvation, until judgment?

The CC teaches that all salvation MUST flow through Her… And so it dos!

By a common Baptism in the Trinity, and a common believe in the Trinity; salvation is POSSIBLE outside the CC.

Perfect Contrition; and a act of Perfect charity are required.

The problem then is does God see yor contrition and charity as “PERFECT.”? One simply NEVER KNOWS.

Catholics however; obeying the mandates and authority given to His Church by Christ have the Sacrament of KNOWN FORGIVENESS; NO DOUBTS; NO UNCERTAINITY; plus THE GRACES THAT GO WITH THIS SACRAMENT.

Love and prayers,
Pat

(4.) What Scriptures reveal the need to pray the Sinner’s Prayer?

(5.) What is the approximate date of the earliest known practice of the Sinner’s Prayer?

I welcome all comments.

Anna

 

[Padrej]

PJM
I would like you to explain this comment of your in light of what follows it.

The CC teaches that all salvation MUST flow through Her… And so it dos!

You claim the Catholic Church teaches that salvation MUST flow from her so kindly explain the following from the Catechism of the Catholic church.

From the Catholic catechism
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

2822 Our Father “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” He “is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish.” His commandment is “that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” This commandment summarizes all the others and expresses his entire will.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”]

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).

1054 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

The last two are rather striking in that they imply that Salvation does NOT always come from the Catholic Church, so can you please explain this? I see nowhere in the above where it MUST flow from the Catholic Church.
Padrej

 

[Dokimas]

PJM
I would like you to explain this comment of your in light of what follows it.

You claim the Catholic Church teaches that salvation MUST flow from her so kindly explain the following from the Catechism of the Catholic church.

From the Catholic catechism
183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:
Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

2822 Our Father “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” He “is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish.” His commandment is “that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” This commandment summarizes all the others and expresses his entire will.

161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’”]

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).

1054 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship imperfectly purified, although they are assured of their eternal salvation, undergo a purification after death, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of God.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

The last two are rather striking in that they imply that Salvation does NOT always come from the Catholic Church, so can you please explain this? I see nowhere in the above where it MUST flow from the Catholic Church.
Padrej

Very interesting. Thank you.​

I also really liked the following:

Pray, hope, and don’t worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer."
Padre Pio

“Prayer is the best weapon we have; it is the key to God’s heart. You must speak to Jesus not only with your lips, but with your heart. In fact on certain occasions you should only speak to Him with your heart.”
Padre Pio

 

[PJM]

=Padrej; PJM
I would like you to explain this comment of your in light of what follows it.

Sorry had to shorten your POAT # 159 in order to respond:shrug:

You claim the Catholic Church teaches that salvation MUST flow from her so kindly explain the following from the Catechism of the Catholic church.

Similar to the Bible one is at great risk of misunderstanding by pulling ONLY select quotes:

[UOTE] From the Catholic Catechism

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

The last two are rather striking in that they imply that Salvation does NOT always come from the Catholic Church, so can you please explain this? I see nowhere in the above where it MUST flow from the Catholic Church.
Padrej

Well done friend, but here’s the rest of the story that you missed.

“All SALVATION flows Through the CC”

From the Catholic Catechism

** 818 **“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

**838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.”

/COLOR] Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

**845 **To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood

**846 **How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**847 **COLOR=“red”]This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."

Love and prayers,

 

[guanophore]

I recently ran by a piece on John Wesley and security in salvation. Wesley spoke about our spirit witnesses how God’s love has changed us. He believed that you could tell in your heart that you were really devoted to God by your love for neighbor and if you had joy and peace and humility. If you have those things then you would be assured by your conscience that you are now the kind of person God wants you to be and that salvation is working in you.

It rather ties into the passage of Luke 7: 36-50 where the “sinful woman” pours the fragrant oil over Jesus’ feet and wipes them with her hair. Jesus criticizes Simon the pharisee after telling him the parable of how much one is forgiven is proportionate to how much one loves. The he goes on to further criticize him openly that he never washed his feet, gave him a holy kiss, or anointed Him; all of these things were required of a good Jew if he was to be considered a “good host.” Jesus was showing that Simon loved little because he had no real gifts or love towards others where the sinful woman did. Then He turns to the woman and says “your faith has saved you” which confirms what I wrote above that it is about your actions that prove that you have the salvation.

This is a very Catholic point of view.

 

[guanophore]

Prayer is talking with God. We are all sinners so when we pray, we must be saying a sinners prayer. God seeks our hearts response to Him. He knows who are His. That’s what saves us, not words our minds speak.​

Oh yes, IMO.

I do appreciate your point that every prayer can be an opportunity to be reconciled to God, but we are no longer “sinners” when we are in Christ. We are cleansed by His blood,a nd we have become the righteousness of God in Christ. The old many is passing away, and the we are new every morning in His grace. To continue to think of ourselves as sinners (separated from God) is not conducive to spiritual growth.

 

[guanophore]

By a common Baptism in the Trinity, and a common believe in the Trinity; salvation is POSSIBLE outside the CC.

I am not sure whose statement this is, because the post was not clearly marked. I just wanted to say that this statmement is false. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

The last two are rather striking in that they imply that Salvation does NOT always come from the Catholic Church, so can you please explain this? I see nowhere in the above where it MUST flow from the Catholic Church.
Padrej

You have misunderstood what you are reading. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Those who are saved that are not identified with the visible Catholic Church (Muslims and our separated brethren) are saved because they are part of the Church. Jesus only has ONE BODY, ONE CHURCH. Therefore, all who are saved are members of HIS ONE BODY, the Church. It flows from the Church because He only founded ONE CHURCH. Salvation is through Christ alone. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved. He established His Church as the means by which we are connected to Him as the Head.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I am not sure whose statement this is, because the post was not clearly marked. I just wanted to say that this statmement is false. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Hey Guan… Is it because the rejection of Christ church and it’s teachings they many not have salvation?

Matthew

 

[PJM]

=guanophore;6511770]I am not sure whose statement this is, because the post was not clearly marked. I just wanted to say that this statmement is false. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

All SALVATION flows Through the CC

From the Catholic catechism

**# 818 **“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

**# 819 **"**Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”# 838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

**845 **To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood

***846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it*.**

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Dokimas]

I do appreciate your point that every prayer can be an opportunity to be reconciled to God, but we are no longer “sinners” when we are in Christ. We are cleansed by His blood,a nd we have become the righteousness of God in Christ. The old man is passing away, and the we are new every morning in His grace. To continue to think of ourselves as sinners (separated from God) is not conducive to spiritual growth.

To think we’re not still sinners (you don’t sin any more???) is to not understand the Bible on this issue, IMO.

Ro 7:17 “But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.” This may speak to the issue of us having two natures; non-Christians only have one nature.

Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Ro 7:20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ro 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;” Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus not gone totally until Heaven, IMO.

Ro 4:8 “Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” We’re still sinners but our sins are not imputed to us if we’re truly Christian, IMO.

1 John 1:
8 ¶ " If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Galatians 6:3 “For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.”

IMO, to realize our potential to sin is an important motive for spiritual growth.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Just when I thought this thread was winding down, it has been enthusiastically resurrected.

Most seem to agree that the Sinner’s Prayer does not assure salvation. Somehow we have entered a discussion regarding salvation inside vs. outside the Catholic Church. Though discussed many times on other threads, each person sheds new light on the debate, for me anyway. I’ll keep following along. Even though we are veering off topic, it is an interesting discussion.

Anna (OP)

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by guanophore
I do appreciate your point that every prayer can be an opportunity to be reconciled to God, but we are no longer “sinners” when we are in Christ. We are cleansed by His blood,a nd we have become the righteousness of God in Christ. The old man is passing away, and the we are new every morning in His grace. To continue to think of ourselves as sinners (separated from God) is not conducive to spiritual growth

So friend your explaination for the following is?

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Mark.8: 34 **And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

---

Notice please it does not say only until you believe….***

 

[brb3]

**

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:**** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Mark.8: 34 **And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Christ says above that any who would come after him as disciples must DAILY take up cross [be obedient to our high calling in Christ]. Even a Righteous man will commit venial sins, on daily basis … but these don’t separate us from God like Mortal sins. Nevertheless, for either venial or mortal sins … we must ‘deny ourselves’ [repent/confess] and bear our cross on daily basis.

The Sinner’s Prayer is generally considered our FIRST confession / repentance, but if we later become Prodigals, we will need to renew / restore our standing in Christ by revisiting the Sinner’s Prayer.

I know, some will quote me Heb. 6:4-6 … and say “restoration is impossible” ---- but, life experience for many suggests otherwise.

 

[Padrej]

So friend your explaination for the following is?

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

**Phil.2: 8 **“And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross **Luke.9 :23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Mark.8: 34 **And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Luke.14: 7 **Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

---

Notice please it does not say only until you believe….***

I find it curious that a Roman Catholic uses the John 20: 20-23 passage that has Christ breathing on ALL the apostles and saying whatever sins they retain are retained and whatever are forgiven are forgiven. Are you now coming over to the Protestant point of view here that the binding and loosing power was NOT given to Peter alone but to all the apostles? It would seem so from this post. This line is usually given by Protestants to show that Peter was NOT the head, but rather all were equal.

Your arguments that follow are very Protestant in nature also regarding salvation and do not mention the Catholic church at all. Funny when push comes to shove that you can find good answers from sola scriptura. Very Good!! you should be commended on your knowledge.

I do notice you are specifically avoiding the “Muslim issue” from this paragraph of the catechism:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

You paint a very broad picture with all due respect. However, if one studies the Koran, the God in there IS NOT the same merciful God that we adore. Can you relate this to salvation?

 

[brb3]

I find it curious that a Roman Catholic uses the John 20: 20-23 passage that has Christ breathing on ALL the apostles and saying whatever sins they retain are retained and whatever are forgiven are forgiven. … the Protestant point of view here that the binding and loosing power was NOT given to Peter alone but to all the apostles?

This line is usually given by Protestants to show that Peter was NOT the head, but rather all were equal.

Catholics believe all Apostles, and those they confirmed [with holy orders] til the present day … can forgive sins in NAME of Christ. Catholics believe Peter was the Head of Church, and the Church has ever since needed a Head … called Papa Pope.

The question for you is — Can a Protestant Pastor validly forgive sins ?

Most Protestant Pastors will say NO, they can’t. They will say only Christ can forgive sins, denying the truth of John 20:20-23. … or else say it ONLY applied to the 12 & Paul.

 

[rev_kevin]

Catholics believe all Apostles, and those they confirmed [with holy orders] til the present day … can forgive sins in NAME of Christ. Catholics believe Peter was the Head of Church, and the Church has ever since needed a Head … called Papa Pope.

The question for you is — Can a Protestant Pastor validly forgive sins ?

Most Protestant Pastors will say NO, they can’t. They will say only Christ can forgive sins, denying the truth of John 20:20-23. … or else say it ONLY applied to the 12 & Paul.

John 20:23 Here Jesus was giving the disciples their Spiri-powered and Spirit-guided mission–to preach the Good News about Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven. The disciples did not have the power to forgive sins {only God can forgive sisn}, but Jesus gave them the priviledge of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message. All believers have this same priviledge.

 

[brb3]

John 20:23 Here Jesus was giving the disciples their Spiri-powered and Spirit-guided mission–to preach the Good News about Jesus so people’s sins might be forgiven. The disciples did not have the power to forgive sins {only God can forgive sisn}, but Jesus gave them the priviledge of telling new believers that their sins have been forgiven because they have accepted Jesus’ message. All believers have this same priviledge.

You believe whatever the Apostles did in name of Christ [telling those who had confessed before them & the church they were forgiven by CHRIST], also applys to our present day Pastors & Priests, and even the laity.

So, why make what Catholic Priests tell those who confess to them to be unscriptural or blasphemous ?

 

[Padrej]

Catholics believe all Apostles, and those they confirmed [with holy orders] til the present day … can forgive sins in NAME of Christ. Catholics believe Peter was the Head of Church, and the Church has ever since needed a Head … called Papa Pope.

The question for you is — Can a Protestant Pastor validly forgive sins ?

Most Protestant Pastors will say NO, they can’t. They will say only Christ can forgive sins, denying the truth of John 20:20-23. … or else say it ONLY applied to the 12 & Paul.

Being Anglican I would say, YES I could declare sins forgiven. Many Protestants such as Methodists and Presbyterians will give and “assurance of pardon” based upon scriptures mentioned. That is the difference.

 

[FrJohnB]

All SALVATION flows Through the CC

From the Catholic catechism

**# 818 **“However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

**# 819 **"**Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”# 838 **“The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

**845 **To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood

***846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it***.

**847 **This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

So let me go out in a limb here and ask you as a Catholic priest to another catholic that always has been taught that other faiths DO have salvation because our catechism says so that you claim that now they do not? Prior to Vatican 2 your answers were correct, we do have a more open view on this matter now.
I too would like to hear you directly answer the “Muslim problem” that padrej brings up instead of broadly answering it. I tend to agree with him after reading the Koran myself that the god of the Koran IS NOT the same God we worship. This is something the magisterium is looking into.