Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?

[Padrej]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott View Post
Sometimes in today’s churches, the preachers are so loud, one cannot hear the voice of God.

Anna

That is profound. Well said!!!

To this I also add a resounding AMEN. May I be loud enough to be heard when preaching the Gospel but quiet enough to still hear God. And I might add to have wisdom enough to know when to shut up.

 

[Anna_Scott]

To this I also add a resounding AMEN. May I be loud enough to be heard when preaching the Gospel but quiet enough to still hear God. And I might add to have wisdom enough to know when to shut up.

Oh, if only some of that wisdom to “shut up” could be passed on. The entertainment factor in so many churches must surely grieve our Lord.

Anna

 

[Daedelus76]

. But in some way, it is infact percisly this that they try to sell. “If you were to die today, do you have aboslute assurance that you would go to Heaven”? That’s the question, no honest Christian should say yes to this… But many honest ones do, because they’ve been lead astray.

This is a very different attitude from alot of older forms of Christianity more rooted in the “Great Tradition”. I’ve had people ask me before “Are you saved?” and it makes me uncomfortable (I am from a Methodist upbringing, now am attending an Episcopalian cathedral and thinking of Orthodoxy). We should have hope, but “knowing” is often more than a bit presumptuous. The craving for justification or affirmation can be narcissistic. That narcissism is the very thing God saves us from.

 

[Anna_Scott]

This is a very different attitude from alot of older forms of Christianity more rooted in the “Great Tradition”. I’ve had people ask me before “Are you saved?” and it makes me uncomfortable (I am from a Methodist upbringing, now am attending an Episcopalian cathedral and thinking of Orthodoxy). We should have hope, but “knowing” is often more than a bit presumptuous. The craving for justification or affirmation can be narcissistic. That narcissism is the very thing God saves us from.

Daedelus76,

Excellent comment. I have spoken about the narcissism issue in previous posts on this thread. We are definitely on the same page.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[Padrej]

This is a very different attitude from alot of older forms of Christianity more rooted in the “Great Tradition”. I’ve had people ask me before “Are you saved?” and it makes me uncomfortable (I am from a Methodist upbringing, now am attending an Episcopalian cathedral and thinking of Orthodoxy). We should have hope, but “knowing” is often more than a bit presumptuous. The craving for justification or affirmation can be narcissistic. That narcissism is the very thing God saves us from.

Mennonites and Amish also say they have “hope” as it is presumptuous to put yourself in God’s way. Maybe you should head that way, they came out of Catholicism also

Just kidding, I pray you find a church home that suits you.

 

[Nominefili]

I think these denoms have various ways of explaining why this person was going to hell, most would say he didn’t really believe probably. But in some way, it is infact percisly this that they try to sell. “If you were to die today, do you have aboslute assurance that you would go to Heaven”? That’s the question, no honest Christian should say yes to this… But many honest ones do, because they’ve been lead astray.

This is very sad to read. You don’t have absolute assurance?

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

• 1 John 5:11-13

Whoever believes in me and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

• Mark 16:16

That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

• Romans 10:9

Now, if you won’t take Paul’s or John’s word for it (as inspired by the Holy Spirit), surely you can trust in our dear Lord’s promise of salvation. Christ has defeated sin, death, and the devil in His bitter sufferings and death and His glorious resurrection! As St. Paul beautifully wrote in Romans 8:31-39

If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[l] No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord

If you believe in the name of Christ and are baptized, you are saved! Do not despair, but rejoice!

 

[crazzeto]

I’m sad to read some still take salvation for granted… Yet another case which makes me recall:

Mat 4:6 And said to him: If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down, for it is written: That he hath given his angels charge over thee, and in their hands shall they bear thee up, lest perhaps thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him: It is written again: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

[Nominefili]

I’m sad to read some still take salvation for granted… Yet another case which makes me recall:

I don’t recall taking salvation for granted; on the contrary I give thanks for it every day. To be honest, I found the tone of your post condemning, which seems an inappropriate response to what I was doing; simply reassuring. Furthermore, it is not ‘tempting’ God to give thanks for the eternal life that we inherit for the sake of His Son, our dear Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[crazzeto]

I don’t recall taking salvation for granted; on the contrary I give thanks for it every day. To be honest, I found the tone of your post condemning, which seems an inappropriate response to what I was doing; simply reassuring. Furthermore, it is not ‘tempting’ God to give thanks for the eternal life that we inherit for the sake of His Son, our dear Lord Jesus Christ.

Believing in God means obeying God, anything less is taking the gift of salvation for granted.

 

[Anna_Scott]

This is very sad to read. You don’t have absolute assurance?

• 1 John 5:11-13
• Mark 16:16
• Romans 10:9

Now, if you won’t take Paul’s or John’s word for it (as inspired by the Holy Spirit), surely you can trust in our dear Lord’s promise of salvation. Christ has defeated sin, death, and the devil in His bitter sufferings and death and His glorious resurrection! As St. Paul beautifully wrote in Romans 8:31-39

If you believe in the name of Christ and are baptized, you are saved! Do not despair, but rejoice!

Nominefili,

I appreciate your comments. However, I will post a quote from Crazzeto again. I think I have quoted this 2 or 3 times already on this Thread:

. . . . .The only other thing I could add to what you said are the very words of St. Paul him self, 1 Corintians 4

3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man’s day; but neither do I judge my own self.

1 Corinthians 4 (ESV):
1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

If Paul would not presume to judge himself; I would not presume to do so, in regards to my own salvation.

I live in the “hope” of the resurrection.

Anna

 

[brb3]

If Paul would not presume to judge himself; I would not presume to do so, in regards to my own salvation.

I live in the “hope” of the resurrection.

I think you missed Paul’s meaning. A verse taken out of context often misses the mark.

For example … consider what Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 11:28-32
“Let a man EXAMINE HIMSELF, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. … But, if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we MAY NOT BE CONDEMNED along with the world.”

You make the same mistake regarding ‘hope’ of resurrection. For Paul and the other 12, they lived in hope yes, but much more, a ‘blessed / living’ assurance. For them resurrection was a 100 % certitude … provided they persevered in their faith, which was also a 100% certitude. Both John and Paul write so powerfully on this salvation assurance, that it is ludicrous to say the Apostles doubted their ultimate resurrection IN CHRIST.

 

[Nominefili]

You make the same mistake regarding ‘hope’ of resurrection. For Paul and the other 12, they lived in hope yes, but much more, a ‘blessed / living’ assurance. For them resurrection was a 100 % certitude … provided they persevered in their faith, which was also a 100% certitude. Both John and Paul write so powerfully on this salvation assurance, that it is ludicrous to say the Apostles doubted their ultimate resurrection IN CHRIST.

Thanks for that. One might note that in Latin and other related languages, like Spanish, ‘hope’ (esperar in Spanish) can mean both to ‘hope’ in the english sense; i.e. (I hope I win the lottery), or ‘to expect’. It is with that ‘expect’ sense that Paul and other Biblical writers use it. It is not ‘hope’ in the sense that ‘if everything goes right and I don’t have any sins on my conscience when I die and I adhere to the law as perfectly as possible then maybe, just maybe I’ll be resurrected on the last day’ but rather, as we say in the Creeds, we "look for the Resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.’

 

[Padrej]

This is very sad to read. You don’t have absolute assurance?

• 1 John 5:11-13
• Mark 16:16
• Romans 10:9

Now, if you won’t take Paul’s or John’s word for it (as inspired by the Holy Spirit), surely you can trust in our dear Lord’s promise of salvation. Christ has defeated sin, death, and the devil in His bitter sufferings and death and His glorious resurrection! As St. Paul beautifully wrote in Romans 8:31-39

If you believe in the name of Christ and are baptized, you are saved! Do not despair, but rejoice!

Do we not say in our funeral rites that the person has the “sure and certain HOPE of the resurrection?” We do not say sure and certain assurance of the resurrection. Quite frankly what you have posted here leads me to believe that salvation is a ONE TIME thing rather than a lifetime process; that all you have to do is say you believe and you can murder, gossip, and commit whatever sin you darn well please. I do pray that this is not how you feel as Faith without Works IS dead; one needs not look to the book of James for passages like that that Martin Luther tried to expel from the Bible as being from the “epistle of straw” as he referred to it. Many other verses indicate that your profession mist be accompanied by your deeds.

If you were to read the original Biblical Greek passage of John 3:16 the word that gets erroneously translated into English as “believe IN Him” should read “believe INTO Him” indicating this is a lifelong process. Yes one could extrapolate from those verses you cite that you could get the “assurance” of salvation, however, as has been posted to this thread before the profession is only step ONE and “not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom.” Please tell me as you seem to be scholarly in searching verses the exact words indicating that we have “assurance.” (The exact words of assurance of salvation) I believe you will find “hope” and “faith” mentioned but no “assurance.” It is we who are of the evangelical type that breathe into the verses you cite as those are THE assurance when they are only assuring. far too many in our churches today live under the assumption that because I gave my heart to the Lord on X date that that is all I need to do, I can live my old lifestyle because after all I have the “assurance of salvation.” St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3 speaks to this growth process. The book of Revelation mentions “You are neither hot nor cold but Lukewarm” (Rev. 3:15-16). Why would St. Paul say “I strive towards the prize” if he has full assurance? It is because he had HOPE in his salvation so he continually worked on it. To tell a person that they have the “assurance” to many gives license to sin. This is why many say that you are “tempting God” by saying you are assured.

Did you stop sinning the moment you confessed Christ or did you still live in the flesh? If you posted to this thread I would bet that when you got saved Jesus did not take you home immediately because you need to grow and not remain the way you were. This is the danger of saying “I am assured” when God is the one that is going to judge if you are one of his sheep or a goat that gets separated out. (I am assuming that you have read the parable of the sheep and the goats from Matthew’s Gospel) The goats in the parable thought they were righteous, but notice the sheep were the humble ones were the sheep in not presuming to have even done the least.

Have you gone that extra mile or done only what is expected of you? Remember the warning of Luke 17: 10 that when you have done only those commanded that you are “unprofitable servants.” Those words do not sound like words that would lead me to think I am assured of salvation. What happened to “except your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not get into Heaven.” Does this not sound like you are not always assured? “Be perfect AS your Father in Heaven is perfect,” another word of Christ that does not lead me to think that we can entirely live up with only **one statement of faith **to be assured of anything. Are you PERFECT like God (or Merciful if you want to use a modern translation)? Sounds to me from the way that the posts have been on this subject that NONE of us live up to that.

 

[Padrej]

I think you missed Paul’s meaning. A verse taken out of context often misses the mark.

For example … consider what Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 11:28-32
“Let a man EXAMINE HIMSELF, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. … But, if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we MAY NOT BE CONDEMNED along with the world.”

You make the same mistake regarding ‘hope’ of resurrection. For Paul and the other 12, they lived in hope yes, but much more, a ‘blessed / living’ assurance. For them resurrection was a 100 % certitude … provided they persevered in their faith, which was also a 100% certitude. Both John and Paul write so powerfully on this salvation assurance, that it is ludicrous to say the Apostles doubted their ultimate resurrection IN CHRIST.

Point of contention: Don’t you think you should say the other 11 as Judas was called the “son of perdition” by Jesus and it was also said of him, “It would be better that he never have been born.” Are you saying that Judas who was one of the 12 had assurance 100% that he was going to get into Heaven?

 

[Nominefili]

Do we not say in our funeral rites that the person has the “sure and certain HOPE of the resurrection?” We do not say sure and certain assurance of the resurrection. Quite frankly what you have posted here leads me to believe that salvation is a ONE TIME thing rather than a lifetime process; that all you have to do is say you believe and you can murder, gossip, and commit whatever sin you darn well please. I do pray that this is not how you feel as Faith without Works IS dead; one needs not look to the book of James for passages like that that Martin Luther tried to expel from the Bible as being from the “epistle of straw” as he referred to it. Many other verses indicate that **your **profession mist be accompanied by **your **deeds.

If you were to read the original Biblical Greek passage of John 3:16 the word that gets erroneously translated into English as “believe IN Him” should read “believe INTO Him” indicating this is a lifelong process. Yes one could extrapolate from those verses you cite that you could get the “assurance” of salvation, however, as has been posted to this thread before the profession is only step ONE and “not every one who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom.” Please tell me as **you **seem to be scholarly in searching verses the exact words indicating that we have “assurance.” (The exact words of assurance of salvation) I believe you will find “hope” and “faith” mentioned but no “assurance.” It is we who are of the evangelical type that breathe into the verses you cite as those are THE assurance when they are only assuring. far too many in our churches today live under the assumption that because I gave my heart to the Lord on X date that that is all I need to do, I can live my old lifestyle because after all I have the “assurance of salvation.” St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 3 speaks to this growth process. The book of Revelation mentions “You are neither hot nor cold but Lukewarm” (Rev. 3:15-16). Why would St. Paul say “I strive towards the prize” if he has full assurance? It is because he had HOPE in his salvation so he continually worked on it. To tell a person that they have the “assurance” to many gives license to sin. This is why many say that you are “tempting God” by saying you are assured.

Did **you **stop sinning the moment you confessed Christ or did you still live in the flesh? If you posted to this thread I would bet that when you got saved Jesus did not take you home immediately because you need to grow and not remain the way you were. This is the danger of saying “I am assured” when God is the one that is going to judge if you are one of his sheep or a goat that gets separated out. (I am assuming that you have read the parable of the sheep and the goats from Matthew’s Gospel) The goats in the parable thought they were righteous, but notice the sheep were the humble ones were the sheep in not presuming to have even done the least.

Have you gone that extra mile or done only what is expected of you? Remember the warning of Luke 17: 10 that when **you have done only those commanded **that you are “unprofitable servants.” Those words do not sound like words that would lead me to think I am assured of salvation. What happened to “except your righteousness exceeds that of the pharisees you will not get into Heaven.” Does this not sound like you are not always assured? “Be perfect AS your Father in Heaven is perfect,” another word of Christ that does not lead me to think that we can entirely live up with only **one statement of faith **to be assured of anything. Are you PERFECT like God (or Merciful if you want to use a modern translation)? Sounds to me from the way that the posts have been on this subject that NONE of us live up to that.

Padrej, thank you very much for your well-considered response.

I understand where you are coming from. I am not of OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) school; I am a Lutheran seminary student. And I do not believe that upon ‘giving my heart to Jesus’ that I have been saved.

Baptism, however, is different. Faith is different. Why? Because they are not my actions. They are God’s . Upon quoting you, I have highlighted all the points where you emphasize and ask me what I have done, when really the life of the Christian is not a continuous reflection of self, but rather constant worship and praise of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit has accomplished salvation for us. If it were dependent upon us and our merit; upon us and our action, we would be completely hopeless. Whether or not we were to ‘hope’ in that case would be irrelevant, because original sin has so corrupted us that there is nothing we can do to make ourselves right with God.

If we could in fact merit grace, if we could in fact please God, then why did the Christ need to come into the world? Why did He, the very Son of God, need to suffer and die on the cross? And now that He has, isn’t that enough? Or was the cataclysmic event of the God-Man taking on the entire world’s sin, descending into Hell, and ascending into heaven not quite enough to save me? What can I possibly do that would even come close?

That is not to say that we ought not do good works. The Lutheran Confessions, particularly the Formula of Concord, state again and again that a true faith in Christ WILL BRING ABOUT GOOD WORKS. Someone who does not perform good works does not have a living faith. But we are not saved by those works.

Again, I very much appreciate your candid perspective, and I hope we can amicably continue our dialogue.

 

[brb3]

Point of contention: Don’t you think you should say the other 11 as Judas was called the “son of perdition” by Jesus and it was also said of him, “It would be better that he never have been born.” Are you saying that Judas who was one of the 12 had assurance 100% that he was going to get into Heaven?

Speaking of 12 and Paul who had WITNESSED & ‘talked to’ the risen Lord. Judas cashed in his chips/coins early, he made his deal with the temple crowd who rejected and crucified Christ.

Anyone who had spoken with the Risen Christ … had more than adequate reason to persevere in S.A. Thats why Christ gave H.S. to the believers … his presence to the sheep will enable them to persevere and enjoy S.A.

 

[Padrej]

Padrej, thank you very much for your well-considered response.

I understand where you are coming from. I am not of OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) school; I am a Lutheran seminary student. And I do not believe that upon ‘giving my heart to Jesus’ that I have been saved.

Baptism, however, is different. Faith is different. Why? Because they are not my actions. They are God’s . Upon quoting you, I have highlighted all the points where you emphasize and ask me what I have done, when really the life of the Christian is not a continuous reflection of self, but rather constant worship and praise of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit has accomplished salvation for us. If it were dependent upon us and our merit; upon us and our action, we would be completely hopeless. Whether or not we were to ‘hope’ in that case would be irrelevant, because original sin has so corrupted us that there is nothing we can do to make ourselves right with God.

If we could in fact merit grace, if we could in fact please God, then why did the Christ need to come into the world? Why did He, the very Son of God, need to suffer and die on the cross? And now that He has, isn’t that enough? Or was the cataclysmic event of the God-Man taking on the entire world’s sin, descending into Hell, and ascending into heaven not quite enough to save me? What can I possibly do that would even come close?

That is not to say that we ought not do good works. The Lutheran Confessions, particularly the Formula of Concord, state again and again that a true faith in Christ WILL BRING ABOUT GOOD WORKS. Someone who does not perform good works does not have a living faith. But we are not saved by those works.

Again, I very much appreciate your candid perspective, and I hope we can amicably continue our dialogue.

I agree that we are not saved by our works, let me clear on that from the start. As you put it they are part of a “living faith.” As Christ said “you will know them by their fruits.”

NOW the comments initially that you are not a once saved always saved did not come through clearly in the posts that I responded to. That is what elicited the response from me that you received. I do challenge ANY to find the exact wording in the Bible that we have the assurance of salvation. Sadly to my research this “assurance of salvation” crowd is a rather late come by in the Christian world.

BTW what seminary are you attending?

 

[Padrej]

Speaking of 12 and Paul who had WITNESSED & ‘talked to’ the risen Lord. Judas cashed in his chips/coins early, he made his deal with the temple crowd who rejected and crucified Christ.

Anyone who had spoken with the Risen Christ … had more than adequate reason to persevere in S.A. Thats why Christ gave H.S. to the believers … his presence to the sheep will enable them to persevere and enjoy S.A.

Paul WAS NOT one of the original 12. Jesus only breathed on 10 of the 11 remaining in the upper room commanding them “receive the Holy Spirit” as Thomas was not there at that event. (John 20: 22-23) PLEASE stop avoiding my point your original comment was

For Paul and the other 12, they lived in hope yes, but much more, a ‘blessed / living’ assurance. For them resurrection was a 100 % certitude … provided they persevered in their faith, which was also a 100% certitude.

You mention 12 Judas was gone by the time this was going on are you saying that he DID have the assurance even though Christ already condemned him?

Please show me in any of these person’s writings the words “assurance”

 

[crazzeto]

@Nominefili

Your “aboslute assurance” language really came off as OSAS, sorry about that… You kind of creeped in right after we finished one good round discussing OSAS and peculiar view points on it. It’s for this reason usage of that language is completely out of favor with me, it’s loaded with meaning.

I would suggest this as a better interpretation if you really want to use “aboslute assurance”… I have aboslute assurance that God will keep his word to us, that if we follow his prcepts we will receive his saving grace which is the only thing (not faith/works) which can justify us.

Can you be on board with that?

 

[FrJohnB]

Speaking of 12 and Paul who had WITNESSED & ‘talked to’ the risen Lord. Judas cashed in his chips/coins early, he made his deal with the temple crowd who rejected and crucified Christ.

Anyone who had spoken with the Risen Christ … had more than adequate reason to persevere in S.A. Thats why Christ gave H.S. to the believers … his presence to the sheep will enable them to persevere and enjoy S.A.

I would have to agree with Padrej there were only eleven after Judas not twelve as you contend. Can you tell us the name of the 12th.