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Protestants: Sinner's Prayer-What must it say and does it assure Salvation?
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FrJohnB
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Join the crowd. as has been posted before on this thread evangelicalism and Catholicism do not mix.
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mikeledes
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It’s not the recital of the words that make that prayer “efficacious.” In order to subjectively receive the grace of justification, whether in the sacrament of Baptism or extrasacramentally, the person has to have a believing and contrite heart. In the case of extrasacramental justification, it is the disposition of the person and not the prayer itself that’s important. There is nothing special about the Sinners Prayer that makes it more efficacious then the Act of Contrition or any other prayer in which one expresses contrition. That’s why I’m saying that it’s not the Sinner’s Prayer per se.
God Bless,
Michael
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FrJohnB
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The problem with this is there are many in the pews who were raised in the church (Protestant) that take communion and have said a general confession prior to this before ever giving their hearts totally to Christ. Case in point, it is the policy of the Methodist church to have an “open communion rail” because John Wesley thought that the communion would bring them to Christ and initiate the confession/profession of faith. So It would not be fair to say the sinner’s prayer if the FIRST confession. NOW, how many in our own Catholic faith have gone through the ritual of baptism and confirmation and never totally given themselves over to Christ? This is the purpose of the “sinner’s prayer,” to give one’s self over to Christ totally. Now I know as has been pointed out on this thread that technically all prayers are “sinner’s prayers” but the purpose of this thread was to discuss the correct formula of what must a sinner’s prayer that would bring one to salvation contain.
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brb3
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St. John quotes Christ …
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. But all this they will do to you on my account, because they do not know him who sent me. John 15:20-21
Christ then explains … THIS was said to help converts persevere by means of the H.S. that proceeds from the Father, who testifies to Christ and his words.
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FrJohnB
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Brb3,
Are you saying that when Peter wept bitterly after denying Christ that this was NOT a conviction of the Holy Spirit? What caused Peter to say to Christ “Depart from me for I am a sinful man” after the miracle of catching a great # of fish if it was not a conviction of the Spirit?
With all due respect you are missing the point of the breathing the Holy Spirit on the apostles, it was to charge them that whatever sins they retain are retained and whatever forgiven is forgiven. You have missed that point totally.
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FrJohnB
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Brb3,
Are you saying that when Peter wept bitterly after denying Christ that this was NOT a conviction of the Holy Spirit? What caused Peter to say to Christ “Depart from me for I am a sinful man” after the miracle of catching a great # of fish if it was not a conviction of the Spirit? David confessed to God "do not take your Spirit from me so obviously the Holy Spirit that is already in us convicts us.
With all due respect you are missing the point of the breathing the Holy Spirit on the apostles, it was to charge them that whatever sins they retain are retained and whatever forgiven is forgiven. You have missed that point totally.
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brb3
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The thief on Cross gives us an example of Sinner’s Prayer that was sufficient.
For those who have never prayed or can’t imagine how to compose a prayer the following is highly recommended and has proven efficacious.
Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank you for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the person you want me to be.
////// From Campus Crusade for Christ, 4 Spiritual Laws .
This prayer, prayed with sincere heart … will bring about the initial justification of the lost, and also asks God to provide grace for sanctification and perseverance.
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FrJohnB
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Funny I have not found “Converts persevere” in that passage of John, can you tell me where it is found? I do find in the preceding verses that “My joy will remain in you, and that your joy may be full” (Vs 11) when it comes to keeping commandments. The Holy Spirit mentioned here helps one testify/bear witness but it does not quite frankly mention help to persevere. Please site the verse because even what you have posted is not good Catholic theology.
I got what Padrej was saying about “pushing into the kingdom” it regards one that continually thinks that they are doing things correctly but winds up not doing so because they either hate or persecute in the name of Faith another, hence pushing the other into God’s Kingdom. It is, or at least was an old Protestant saying to allow an attacker to push you into the Kingdom.
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brb3
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Sorry, but I don’t share your ‘limited’ understanding of the event.
Breathing the H.S. into his Apostles … was their Ordination, for sure. But, it was also their Confirmation … something all converts undergo.
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FrJohnB
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NOW you are getting somewhere! Although this is a Protestant prayer (per se) you have hit the nail on the head that this must be done with a sincere heart.
I believe your heart is in the right place brb3 it is just that you need to learn a bit more Catholic dogma and teaching and it could be that through this thread (and others) you will learn some. Just don’t let your Protestant teachings that are showing up cloud your Catholic path, there are others on this thread that can teach you a great deal. May I humbly suggest that if someone points out something (or some area that you may have been a bit off) don’t dig your heels in too far as the Holy Spirit may be using them to make you a better Catholic. we can all learn from everyone on this thread even the Protestants.
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FrJohnB
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IF it was their ordination why were they told to “wait for the power from on high” that came at Pentecost? Keep in mind these were NOT converts.
OK by “Limited” are you also saying that you have a seminary degree that is better than mine and have studied the teachings of the Church to the point that you are ready to be ordained? Do you tell your own parish priest that he is wrong also and “limited” in his understanding of the Catholic Church? You say that you are just within a year or so coming into the Catholic church, would you expect a person like yourself after one year of being a Catholic to have knowledge enough to become a priest? Priests that are called have been Catholics far longer than you so I think you should take this into consideration.
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Padrej
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Funny I have taught seminary for years and Fr John’s interpretation is hardly limited even from a Catholic viewpoint. Let me give you a pointer, When Christ sent the 12 out telling them “I send you out a sheep among wolves” this has always been understood as ordination, this same scripture is also read at many ordinations both Catholic and Protestant but NOT the passage of John where Jesus breathes on them and says, “receive the Holy Spirit.” You cannot have one event to be ordination AND confirmation at the same time else why would the Holy Spirit be needed at Pentecost. I have yet to hear of any convert or ordinand who has confirmation and ordination the same day and same event.
To give you the benefit of a doubt: If you believe it is so that it is both I would like to see this from the Catholic catechism (give me paragraph # as I have a copy) and or early church father who said it was both.
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mikeledes
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And what was Pentecost, which occured after Jesus ascended into heaven?
God Bless,
Michael
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brb3
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Because Christ desired to start the Church in a special way. We must do things Christ’s way … if we are to be his disciples.
No, you implied I was confused on matter … and I responded your viewpoint was ‘limited’ to a ‘single effect’ of Christ’s ‘breathing’ H.S. onto the 12. I don’t know your scholarly credentials, or you mine …
Now, regarding some priests … their years of scholarship proved insufficient for the task of being ‘worthy’ shepherds of their flocks. Even our highly studied Pope and Magisterium are currently in a lurch over past miscalculations of these morally/sexually corrupt judas-priests.
I was close to having my family convinced the Catholic Church was God’s unique creation. Now, my work [and many others] will be much harder.
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brb3
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It wasn’t their confimation. Confirmation preceeds ordination … temporally.
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brb3
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You / I can’t. But, Christ can do whatever he desires. If he chose to confirm them with his H.S. [when Matthias was present to receive] and then immediatedly thereafter ordain them for his soon to be revealed Universal Church … who are we to dispute his actions.
Remember, the Church Apostles were those who had seen/talked with the Risen Christ. Judas had the ‘office’ temporarily… but, he never persevered to see the Resurrected Christ.
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mikeledes
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But you also realize that they possessed the Holy Spirit prior to both events? When they were justified?
God Bless,
Michael
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brb3
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I think they must of. David, and all the prophets were inspired /& spoke by H.S.
Some Protestants claim the H.S. was removed temporarily … while Christ was on earth, ---- but that makes no sense.
It only seems logical to believe that Christ had ability to superinfuse the H.S. into the Apostles and Disciples … as the situation required. Yet, others will accept this superinfusion idea … and then say that we today are not entitled to the same receipt of H.S. as the Apostles enjoyed.
That opinion is not sustained by my read of scripture.
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JustaServant
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You’re kidding right?
I used to teach this stuff!!
It doesn’t work!!!
Why?
Because the ‘heathen’ (many of whom were lapsed Catholics) would ‘pray the prayer’, and then were promptly told they had their ticket to Heaven and nothing, repeat nothing, could stop them from going to Heaven when they died.
What happened to them? Oh, because of this ‘assurance’ many went right back to the lifestyle they had before. I could bore you for hours giving example after example of people who continued in thier sin because some preacher told them ‘you’re as sure for Heaven as Jesus’.
If you read anything written by PROTESTANT scholars on this subject you would know thier biggest concern was FALSE ASSURANCE.
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