Protestants: Sola Fide?

[Contarini]

Obedience is not necessary if faith alone saves and Luther was explicit about this. He said we are beasts with saddles and bridles and go where the rider takes us. If the rider is Christ we will do good works and if the rider is the devil we will do evil, but it does not matter as long as we believe Christ died to save us.

No, you misunderstand. If the rider is the devil then we will obviously not believe on Christ! If the rider is Christ then we will do good works, but these good works are not what save us.

Edwin

 

[grandfather]

No, you misunderstand. If the rider is the devil then we will obviously not believe on Christ! If the rider is Christ then we will do good works, but these good works are not what save us.

Edwin

It has been years since I have studied this, but could probably quote Luther very close to word for word. I do not misunderstand. Luther never said what you attribute to him. He was clearly trying to make his point that faith apart from works, faith alone saves, when insisting that works (good or evil) do not matter. I personally know several Protestants, including ministers, who insist that no matter what a Christian does (works), no matter what grevous sins they commit, they are saved by their acceptance of Christ as savior. What is the origin of this idea, the theological concept from which it springs? Sola fide! Again, faith and love are different. I can believe Jesus is the Son of God who came to save, but not love Him. If Luther is correct love is not necessary to be saved. Jesus says to the Jews, “you search the scriptures thinking that in them you will find eternal life”… A sentence later He tells them that He knows, “the love of God is not in you”. Faith alone will not save you and neither will searching the scriptures. It did the Jews no good and there are many today who still choose this path. In the next scene Jesus feeds the multitude and then disappears, because they want to make Him their king. If you love Him, if the love of God is in you, He is already your king as well as your savior. You can have faith, believe the truth about Him, the demons did, but unless you love Him you are lost. It takes grace to do both, so we say we are saved, sola gratia.

 

[Contarini]

It has been years since I have studied this, but could probably quote Luther very close to word for word. I do not misunderstand. Luther never said what you attribute to him.

Yes, he did. Just a couple of examples. From the Galatians commentary of 1535, commenting on Gal. 5:6:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Another example, from the 1522 preface to Romans (his translation, not his early lectures):

Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, “Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven.” The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, “I believe.” This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement. Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. What a living, creative, active powerful thing is faith! It is impossible that faith ever stop doing good. Faith doesn’t ask whether good works are to be done, but, before it is asked, it has done them. It is always active. Whoever doesn’t do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn’t know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.

It would be easy to multiply such passages, but these are two of the most obvious.

He was clearly trying to make his point that faith apart from works, faith alone saves, when insisting that works (good or evil) do not matter.

They do not matter in the sense that they have no causal effect on one’s standing before God. Good works spring from living faith. Sin is inevitable as long as we are in this life, but a believer is going to struggle against sin, and anyone who does not keep up this struggle will eventually lose faith in Christ and (barring repentance) be damned. From the Galatians commentary again (5:17-19):

No man is to despair of salvation just because he is aware of the lust of the flesh. Let him be aware of it so long as he does not yield to it. The passion of lust, wrath, and other vices may shake him, but they are not to get him down. Sin may assail him, but he is not to welcome it. Yes, the better Christian a man is, the more he will experience the heat of the conflict. This explains the many expressions of regret in the Psalms and in the entire Bible.
Everybody is to determine his peculiar weakness and guard against it. Watch and wrestle in spirit against your weakness. Even if you cannot completely overcome it, at least you ought to fight against it.
According to this description a saint is not one who is made of wood and never feels any lusts or desires of the flesh. A true saint confesses his righteousness and prays that his sins may be forgiven. . . .

 

[Contarini]

[v. 18] As long as we are led by the Spirit, and are willing to obey the Spirit who resists the flesh, we are not under the Law. True believers are not under the Law. The Law cannot condemn them although they feel sin and confess it.
Great then is the power of the Spirit. Led by the Spirit, the Law cannot condemn the believer though he commits real sin. For Christ in whom we believe is our righteousness. He is without sin, and the Law cannot accuse Him. As long as we cling to Him we are led by the Spirit and are free from the Law. Even as he teaches good works, the Apostle does not lose sight of the doctrine of justification, but shows at every turn that it is impossible for us to be justified by works.
The words, “If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law,” are replete with comfort. It happens at times that anger, hatred, impatience, carnal desire, fear, sorrow, or some other lust of the flesh so overwhelms a man that he cannot shake them off, though he try ever so hard. What should he do? Should he despair? God forbid. Let him say to himself: “My flesh seems to be on a warpath against the Spirit again. Go to it, flesh, and rage all you want to. But you are not going to have your way. I follow the leading of the Spirit.”
When the flesh begins to cut up the only remedy is to take the sword of the Spirit, the word of salvation, and fight against the flesh. If you set the Word out of sight, you are helpless against the flesh. I know this to be a fact. I have been assailed by many violent passions, but as soon as I took hold of some Scripture passage, my temptations left me. Without the Word I could not have helped myself against the flesh.
Verse 19. *Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these. *. . .
221Every period of life has its own peculiar temptations. Not one true believer whom the flesh does not again and again incite to impatience, anger, pride. But it is one thing to be tempted by the flesh, and another thing to yield to the flesh, to do its bidding without fear or remorse, and to continue in sin.
Christians also fall and perform the lusts of the flesh. David fell horribly into adultery. Peter also fell grievously when he denied Christ. However great these sins were, they were not committed to spite God, but from weakness. When their sins were brought to their attention these men did not obstinately continue in their sin, but repented. Those who sin through weakness are not denied pardon as long as they rise again and cease to sin. There is nothing worse than to continue in sin. If they do not repent, but obstinately continue to fulfill the desires of the flesh, it is a sure sign that they are not sincere. . . . Those who are Christ’s own crucify their flesh.

I personally know several Protestants, including ministers, who insist that no matter what a Christian does (works), no matter what grevous sins they commit, they are saved by their acceptance of Christ as savior.

What modern Protestants say is of course irrelevant to a discussion of Luther. Luther’s ideas came from Catholic roots (they had no other place to come from!), but that didn’t make them Catholic. Similarly with Baptists and others who have taken Luther’s theology and done strange things with it. Luther would say that your sins have no effect on your standing before God, but as I have shown he would also say that a believer will not sin willingly, gladly, or impenitently. He was concerned to offer comfort to people who struggled with sin and feared that God would condemn them every time they stumbled. He was not offering any reassurance to people who wanted to lead sinful lives.

What is the origin of this idea, the theological concept from which it springs? Sola fide! Again, faith and love are different. I can believe Jesus is the Son of God who came to save, but not love Him. If Luther is correct love is not necessary to be saved.

If Luther is correct (which I think he isn’t on this point), love has no causal effect on our salvation, but it will always be present where faith is present. The Lutheran Formula of Concord (after Luther’s death) wrestles long and hard with the question of whether good works can be said to be “necessary”–they do in some sense believe this, but they don’t want to say so in so many words for fear of watering down justification by faith and making people worry about how many good works they have to do to be saved.

You can have faith, believe the truth about Him, the demons did, but unless you love Him you are lost. .

You do know, don’t you, that simply believing the truth about Jesus is not what Luther (or any of the Reformers) meant by saving faith?

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Let me ask a related question which might surface the OP’s point a bit more:

Why would martyrdom be a joy for the Apostles?

If suffering for Christ was not essential, and not required, why did so many Christians happily go to their deaths, often in excruciating fashion?

 

[onmywayagain]

No one is saved by Faith Alone. Jesus did not say just have faith and you will be saved. Jesus said, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord,” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. If we are saved by Faith Alone, then why did Jesus say, “what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.” And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Funny how works means something to Jesus, but not to a lot of His followers.

Once any Protestant starts to believe that Faith and Works go hand in hand, they might just have to sign up for RCIA at their local Catholic Church.

We all must suffer to be like Christ.

 

[kra130]

This argument seems to always go in circles. i am protestant and i have spent a fair amount of time reading and studying the word of God and i would say that it is a lie to say that you are justified by faith+works. yes faith without works is dead anyone who says this is absolutely right, but works without faith is dead as well. the band Sanctus Real has a song called deeds and the chorus says “If you don’t have faith you have nothing at all If you don’t have deeds your faith will fall They can’t be true without each other you can’t have one without the other.” protestant will always say that it is by faith alone a person is saved. but faith is shown by works. lets say we are crossing a canyon and there is an old rope bridge spanning the gap. now i can holler up and down the canyon that i have faith in the bridge but no one would believe me unless they saw me cross it. 1 John 2:4 says “whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him…” So therefore it is still by faith that people are saved and a lot of people claim faith however true faith always has deeds that follow.
Protestant and i am speaking in the general sense will all quote Paul saying “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph 2:8,9) in fact in Philippians 3 Paul flat out says that nothing he does can justify him. and in Romans 6:23 he calls salvation the free gift of God. I may be wrong but i don’t think so.

to answer the original questionJesus says in John 16:33 “In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.” Jesus makes a promise here that we will have trouble in the world he doesn’t say it will always be physical but we can always be certain that if we are honoring God in our lives we will take a hit whether it be in our bank account on our faith or in our relationships with other people. when we become submissive to Gods plan for our lives our faith will be tried.

 

[onmywayagain]

Kra130. You qouted 1 John 2:4, but forgot about the rest 5 thru
6. But whoever keeps his word, the love of God in truly perfected in. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived.

If we are saved by Faith alone why would we have to keep his word? Why does St. Paul say, “that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling?” If i’m already saved by faith what should I be affraid of? What is there to “work out.”

If Faith alone saves us all. Then they should close down this forum because being nice to people won’t do you any good. Spreading his word won’t do us any good. Keeping his commmandments won’t do us any good. Anything you do is a work. Saying hello to someone is a work. Giving food to someone is a work.

Like Jesus said, “what you did not do to someone, you did not to to me.” These will be off to eternal punishment. If you have faith, yet eat a meal in front of a homeless person and did not offer any to the homeless person, you never offered anything to Jesus. And you will be off to eternal punishment. It is in Scripture.

Golden rule, “Do to others whatever you would have them do to you.” If we are saved by Faith Alone, why would I worry about doing good onto others if i’m already saved and works are not needed for my salvation?

There are many more passages that can refute sola fide, but if protestants are convicted to their beliefs then nothing any Catholic will say will ever get through to them.

 

[Teflon93]

Let me ask a related question which might surface the OP’s point a bit more:

Why would martyrdom be a joy for the Apostles?

If suffering for Christ was not essential, and not required, why did so many Christians happily go to their deaths, often in excruciating fashion?

bump

 

[ScottishColleen]

I’m not signing up for RCIA, but I will say that yes, we do believe that Faith and Works go hand in hand, in that Faith PRODUCES Works. Where there are no Works then obviously there is no Faith. It is because God has given me Faith by Grace, that I have Works. The Works are not by my own power, but by the Father’s.

Perhaps this helps some.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I’m not signing up for RCIA, but I will say that yes, we do believe that Faith and Works go hand in hand, in that Faith PRODUCES Works. Where there are no Works then obviously there is no Faith. It is because God has given me Faith by Grace, that I have Works. The Works are not by my own power, but by the Father’s.

Perhaps this helps some.

That is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches! It’s not OUR works by OUR own strength or will, but GOD working through us.

 

[ScottishColleen]

That is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches! It’s not OUR works by OUR own strength or will, but GOD working through us.

Yes, it was one of the points that one of your seminary students and my husband agreed on. That is why I thought it might be helpful if I put it in our own words…and that is why we still believe we can say Sola Fide…because there is Faith Alone, but what does that Faith produce? Since the Works are not of ourselves, then they are a product of Faith. Thus we do not separate them from Faith and can say “Faith Alone”.

I would like to add that the reason that many Separatists and Protestants claim the Catholics believe in “salvation by works” (their own, not God’s) is due to statements by many Catholics. “As long as I do good…or as long as I do this or that”. However, interestingly enough, there are Separatists and Protestants that say the same thing So no one wins there.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Yes, it was one of the points that one of your seminary students and my husband agreed on. That is why I thought it might be helpful if I put it in our own words…and that is why we still believe we can say Sola Fide…because there is Faith Alone, but what does that Faith produce? Since the Works are not of ourselves, then they are a product of Faith. Thus we do not separate them from Faith and can say “Faith Alone”.

On the video, Common Ground, Father John says that Catholics CAN say they are saved by Faith Alone, as long as it is clear what the Catholic means by “Faith” To some people, “faith alone” means “I just need to believe Jesus died on the cross for me and no matter what, I’m guaranteed a spot in the celestial choir.” Where we differ is in our definition of works. Non-Catholics seem to think it means “works of the law” but Catholic works are those things Jesus implores us to do, like feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, etc…those things which Jesus says we will be judged according to and rewarded for.

I would like to add that the reason that many Separatists and Protestants claim the Catholics believe in “salvation by works” (their own, not God’s) is due to statements by many Catholics. “As long as I do good…or as long as I do this or that”. However, interestingly enough, there are Separatists and Protestants that say the same thing So no one wins there.

Classic example of “talking past one another.” It happens a lot.

 

[grandfather]

"Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. "

I can believe that Jesus is the Son of God and Savior of the world and be an impenitent adulterer and thief. What I believe is true in faith despite how I live. “You call me lord lord and that is what I am, but unless you do what I tell you, what good am I to you?” Obedience, equated to love is necessary for salvation. Luther seems to agree, as stated above, but he makes the distinction between faith and true faith.

Which is greater, faith or love?

It is impossible to know or come to know love (God) without faith. It is impossible to be saved without love and faith, but they are different things. Faith leads to love, or it is supposed to. It comes first, but is not greater. If I do not have love, it is not because my faith lacks it. I lack it. My soul lacks it.

I need a heart, liver, kidneys to live. They all work differently, doing different things and if I lack any of them I die. They are different parts that perform different necessary functions necessary to live. They do not lack or contain one another. They are different distinct necessary parts.

How are faith and love different, distinct and necessary to salvation, eternal life?

Love is eternal. Faith passes away. The eternal is always greater than the temporal. The temporal is useful towards attaining the eternal. Faith is useful and necessary to attaining love, but it is not love, nor does it contain love.

Faith is knowledge of truths we require in order to be saved, which we receive as a gift by believing that which God has revealed. We aquire this knowledge by being told it and believing it, in faith. Faith is the means of attaining knowledge and knowldge itself. We do not have the power to attain this knowledge by our own intellectual devices and can only find it by believing divine revelation, receiving it as a gift. It is knowledge of what God wills for us, and how we should achieve it not only by struggling with sin, but to gain victory over it, being transformed by grace and finding our way to our eternal home. It is distinct from love, but is the knowledge about love that can lead to love.

It is implicit in the statement above attributed to Luther, where he says that faith can lack love, that he sees faith as something that contains love. Faith can lead to love, but it can not lack love, because it can not contain it which is greater and distinct.

Faith and love are different, distinct from one another as my heart and lungs and mind are parts of me, all of which are necessary. I can not live with one alone. I need all. They are associated, but distinct.

If they are different and distinct and both are necessary then one alone can not save as my lungs alone can not keep me alive.

If you hold that one alone, one without the other is sufficient, you must hold that they are the same, equal, indistinct. Luther says one alone saves, but also that both are necessary. This is a contradiction unless they are the same thing. It is obvious that they are not.

 

[kra130]

Like i said before this argument always goes in a circle. it is Faith alone that saves look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus he was saved when there was no possible way for him to do the Lords will he was saved solely on grace. but the faith must be sincere not everyone who says Lord Lord will not be saved. in James it says even the demons believe there is one God and shudder. but it says before this that James will show his faith by works. but that does not mean that the works add to his salvation if they did then i at 19 years old I am already closer to God then most of the people in the US. rather works is proof of faith but works in and of themselves is fruitless. My neighbor is the nicest man i’ve ever met he would gladly give anyone the shirt off his back. but just because he’s nice does not make it possible to go to heaven. Paul says in Romans 11:6 that “it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” and if it is by works then Christ died for no apparent reason. if you say that it is faith+works you are wrong it is faith alone that saves. but if you have no works to prove your faith then your faith is not sincere and you are lying to yourself.

 

[SyCarl]

On the video, Common Ground, Father John says that Catholics CAN say they are saved by Faith Alone, as long as it is clear what the Catholic means by “Faith” To some people, “faith alone” means “I just need to believe Jesus died on the cross for me and no matter what, I’m guaranteed a spot in the celestial choir.” Where we differ is in our definition of works. Non-Catholics seem to think it means “works of the law” but Catholic works are those things Jesus implores us to do, like feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, etc…those things which Jesus says we will be judged according to and rewarded for.

Classic example of “talking past one another.” It happens a lot.

I do not see how works and works of the law can be distinguished. Jesus tells us:

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
And He said to him, " ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40 NASB)

Since loving God and loving your neighbour constitute the whole Law, is there room for any good work not being a work of the law?

 

[grandfather]

Father John says that Catholics CAN say they are saved by Faith Alone, as long as it is clear what the Catholic means by “Faith”

He is wrong. Priests are not infallible. Playing semantic games in order that everyone appears right is very dangerous. It helps no one.

It is Cathloic dogma, de fide, of the faith, defined. That the proposition that faith alone saves is heresy. It is condemned, incompatible with Catholic faith.

Error can not be corrected if it is embraced.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Father John says that Catholics CAN say they are saved by Faith Alone, as long as it is clear what the Catholic means by “Faith”

He is wrong. Priests are not infallible. Playing semantic games in order that everyone appears right is very dangerous. It helps no one.

It is Cathloic dogma, de fide, of the faith, defined. That the proposition that faith alone saves is heresy. It is condemned, incompatible with Catholic faith.

Error can not be corrected if it is embraced.

Pardon me, but where did I say he was infallible? He went on to explain the true doctrine which is that Faith Works. And that is the dogmatic belief of the Church, is it not? I guess you’d have to watch the DVD yourself. He did not say anything wrong.

 

[grandfather]

Like i said before this argument always goes in a circle. it is Faith alone that saves look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus he was saved when there was no possible way for him to do the Lords will he was saved solely on grace.

Of course he was saved by grace alone. Everyone is saved by grace alone. That is not the same as faith alone.

Of course there was a way for him to do the Lord’s will. There are many deathbed conversions, people who repent at the last minute. That is God’s will. Ask any minister Protestant or Catholic who has been in ministry for a few years how many deathbed conversions he has seen.

“Go into all the world and preach the gospel of repentance for forgiveness of sins”. Jesus did not say remain in your sins, but believe and be saved. One would assume based on his words that repentance is necessary for salvation. Is repentance the same as faith? No it comes after faith, realizing you are sinful, needing redemption and learn God will forgive you and has a bath for you in the blood of His Son. Faith can lead to repentance. It is not repentance.

If faith and repentance are different and distinct and repentance is necessary to be saved, then faith alone can not save. You need both, two different things. Playing games with words, “it depends on what you mean by faith”, is like Bill Clinton having his own meaning for sex, “I did not have…”

Faith is what it is. One can not say it depends on what you mean by faith. It can only mean one thing, what it is. This is not theology. It is simple logic. If love is necessary for salvation, as scripture demonstrates clearly that it is, and faith and love are different things, then faith alone can not save you.

I must do what Jesus commands in the present moment of my life, which may be my last moment or any moment, in order to be in the state of grace. “…unless you do what I say what good am I to you”. I must obey Him, keep His sayings, by grace, which also means love Him. “If a man loves me he will keep my commands”. In what is obedience? It is in what we do, or don’t do, our actions. What are actions? They are our works.

It is not what we do, but our motive in doing it that is the difference. If I know Jesus wants me to be kind to the poor and I give a million dollars to charity so that I can earn salvation it does me no good, becasue salvation can not be bought and there is no merit in this. In that case I am not doing this work for love of the poor, but selfishly, to save my own miserable hide. If my heart feels compassion for the poor and I do the same act out of love for the poor it becomes meritorious, because it is done for the same reason Jesus comes to save us, mercy, and it makes me like Him in that way. It is also a sacrifice. It is a work motivated by love. I don’t do it alone. I can’t do it alone. “Without me you can do nothing”. It is Him in us acting. That does not mean we do not act and that our own wills are not engaged. We are not robots controlled by God. We consent to the impulses of grace and act willfully.

Finally, if you are saved by faith alone, where does that leave God? Is it your faith that saves you or God who saves you?
If faith is reduced to some kind of acceptance on your part that saves you then it is something you and you alone do that saves you. God saves us and we participate in our salvation by responding to His grace in faith, hope and love.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

kra130;2556507]Like i said before this argument always goes in a circle. it is Faith alone that saves look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus he was saved when there was no possible way for him to do the Lords will he was saved solely on grace.

kra130: Using your example to prove “it is Faith alone that saves” I would posit that the Bible is totally unnecessary for salvation and Christianity: after all, Jesus didn’t write anything down so therefore written words are not important (especially second and third hand accounts).

Paul says in Romans 11:6 that “it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”

Well, no kra130, St Paul did NOT say that. What he said was “But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would be no longer grace.”

AND, verses 1 through 10 of Chapter 11 are being addressed to “Israel,” the Jews who have been unfaithful to the message of the Gospel.

You have to read Scripture in context.

Sort of like, you know, finding where it is in the Bible that says “you are saved by faith alone.”

Robert