Protestants spread untruths about catholic faith!

[Ryzeke]

I’m only just converting, but as a Protestant, I never looked at Catholics as ‘worshiping’ Mary. She stands as a role model for women, like Christ is a role model for men.

As far as the Mother of God thing. I look at it as she is the Mother of OUR God. Ya know, the one who sent Jesus to save everyone? The God that promises salvation? The Christ that promises salvation? Not the Mother of THE GOD. That’d mean she would’ve preceded him, and then we’d all live in 11 different parallel universes or something.

And that Jesus is God on earth, it’s like ‘umm, ok, then logically Mary is in fact the Mother of God.’ And since Jesus is the promise for salvation (or new covenant) then it’d only make sense that his ‘ark’ or vessel, was Mary. Hence ‘Ark of the New Covenant.’

I dunno, I don’t like to oversimplify things.

 

[Spencerian]

I’m only just converting, but as a Protestant, I never looked at Catholics as ‘worshiping’ Mary. She stands as a role model for women, like Christ is a role model for men.

As far as the Mother of God thing. I look at it as she is the Mother of OUR God. Ya know, the one who sent Jesus to save everyone? The God that promises salvation? The Christ that promises salvation? Not the Mother of THE GOD. That’d mean she would’ve preceded him, and then we’d all live in 11 different parallel universes or something.

And that Jesus is God on earth, it’s like ‘umm, ok, then logically Mary is in fact the Mother of God.’ And since Jesus is the promise for salvation (or new covenant) then it’d only make sense that his ‘ark’ or vessel, was Mary. Hence ‘Ark of the New Covenant.’

I dunno, I don’t like to oversimplify things.

You are well on your way. That was a good explanation, but I would tweak a couple of things a bit.

One: Mary is the mother of God in the flesh. The Second Person of the Trinity has always existed with the Father. But it took the work of the Holy Spirit to bring the Second Person in a temporal, human form, as Christ.

Two: Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant is spot-on. But Mary is more of a role model for all of humanity–she was a woman born without original sin and then lived her life in a very saintly manner. Were that we could all be Marys on Earth–although striving to be like Christ is equally good, if not better.

 

[ChadS]

Where do you find that these creatures are in heaven? You find them guarding the Garden of Eden, you find them on the Ark, and you find them stiched into fabric.

They are also heavenly creatures created by God and thus presumably not to have their images made but yet in the same Bible we find God commanding that their image be made. Unless you think that cherubims are simply made up creatures and God has their image made of imaginary things.

ChadS

 

[IowaJay]

lol, that is Luther’s second commandment, not the actual second. The real second is that “you shall not take the name of the lord in vain”. If you are going to make that your second commandment, you better have NO pictures in your wallet, house, cubicle, whatever, since those would be graven images. And you had BETTER not have a cross around your neck, in your church, or anywhere else. Also, we venerate but never adore. Adoration is due God alone.

Definition of veneration: To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference

This is the irony I find in that argument. You accuse us of breaking what Luther made the second commandment, but you break it in every church you build, in every photo you take, and in every cross you wear.

FSC

I agree that there is irony in Shawn38’s argument, but there is irony in your comment as well, considering the topic of this thread.

Your comment insinuates that Luther changed the 10 Commandments, which is not true because Lutherans and Catholics share the same order of 10 Commandments, which distinguishes our faith traditions from other Christians. I do not think you intentionally misspoke, but simply assumed that Luther was the creator of the order used by other Protestants. The moral of the story (and this thread) is that before assumptions and allegations are made against other Christians, whether Protestant or Catholic, we need to do our homework and check our facts before doing so.

“The Lutheran (Protestant) and Catholic division of the commandments both follow the one established by St. Augustine, following the then current synagogue scribal division. The first three commandments govern the relationship between God and humans, the fourth through eighth govern public relationships between people, and the last two govern private thoughts.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity

Here’s an article by a Catholic apologist which compares the lists side by side which notes that Luther followed the Catholic/Augustinian order:

davidmacd.com/catholic/10_commandments.htm

And here is a quote directly from Luther from his Small Catechism regarding which commandment is the second commandment:

"The Second Commandment.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks."

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

And, by the way, Luther and Lutherans are not iconoclasts. Lutherans have crucifixes, statues, etc. When Luther was away for a period of time, a man named Karlstadt broke statues, etc. When Luther returned, he was highly critical of Karlstadt and told him and his followers to stop.

 

[agrange]

Protestants just repeat misconceptions they were told. Generally, If a protestant friend says something that is incorrect, I will point out the error. No big deal educating the misinformed.

Lately I have found the most Bile coming from self-separated Catholics (they call themselves Former Catholics etc.) who are holding a grudge about some slight (perceived or real) or church ruling that did not go their way. These people are almost impossible to have a reasonable discussion with. Many times I find my self verbally assaulted about remaining Catholic. It’s amazing sometimes. Hey, I don’t let it bother me, “I just tell em “Once a Catholic ,always a Catholic” " You can say you are not Catholic till the cows come home, but it does not make you not Catholic.” It usually really riles them up because these people are always Born Catholics. I know they have heard that saying at some time in their lives from a Priest or a Nun. It puts the lie to what comes out of their mouths and conviction of the truth to their soul.

Anyway, that’s just been my experience.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I agree that there is irony in Shawn38’s argument, but there is irony in your comment as well, considering the topic of this thread.

Your comment insinuates that Luther changed the 10 Commandments, which is not true because Lutherans and Catholics share the same order of 10 Commandments, which distinguishes our faith traditions from other Christians. I do not think you intentionally misspoke, but simply assumed that Luther was the creator of the order used by other Protestants. The moral of the story (and this thread) is that before assumptions and allegations are made against other Christians, whether Protestant or Catholic, we need to do our homework and check our facts before doing so.

“The Lutheran (Protestant) and Catholic division of the commandments both follow the one established by St. Augustine, following the then current synagogue scribal division. The first three commandments govern the relationship between God and humans, the fourth through eighth govern public relationships between people, and the last two govern private thoughts.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity

Here’s an article by a Catholic apologist which compares the lists side by side which notes that Luther followed the Catholic/Augustinian order:

davidmacd.com/catholic/10_commandments.htm

And here is a quote directly from Luther from his Small Catechism regarding which commandment is the second commandment:

"The Second Commandment.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord, thy God, in vain.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We should fear and love God that we may not curse, swear, use witchcraft, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it in every trouble, pray, praise, and give thanks."

bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

And, by the way, Luther and Lutherans are not iconoclasts. Lutherans have crucifixes, statues, etc. When Luther was away for a period of time, a man named Karlstadt broke statues, etc. When Luther returned, he was highly critical of Karlstadt and told him and his followers to stop.

My apologies. My misunderstanding/lack of knowledge was apparently incredibly evident. It will not happen again.

Thanks for correcting me:thumbsup: I dont like not knowing when I am wrong. Its kind of like when you have toilet paper on the bottom of your shoe, it happens to everyone, but you hope someone would tell you.

FSC

 

[reggieM]

Where do you find that these creatures are in heaven? You find them guarding the Garden of Eden, you find them on the Ark, and you find them stiched into fabric.

The cherubim lifted up their wings, and mounted up from the earth in my sight … (Ezekiel 10:19)

But aside from this, I can take note of your private interpretation of the text, attempting to explain something that you recognize as a difficulty.

The issue is when the Bible says one thing and teh CC does something that appears contrary, a degree is generally affixed to it to justify it. This leads to interpretations.

 

[EmergencyOps]

Also, we venerate but never adore. Adoration is due God alone.

Definition of veneration: To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference

We honor, revere and adore her because she is a great role model.

Fermat, I understand what you are trying to say, but for others’ sake, you might want to choose another word to describe your view of Mary. Otherwise, they are led to believe that you do commit adoration of Mary.

 

[Xavierlives]

Dear friends

it really upsets me when protestants spread untruths and lies about the catholic faith. In most cases, I’m convinced, it is so because they are unaware what catholics really believe (maybe if they studied it before making claims they would have to acknowledge that what they’re saying doesn’t make sense. Or am I being too brave?)

I give you this short video as example that is full of claims that have NO sense, are just wrong and have no scriptural ground. Why do the protestant think that we worship statues and make Mary a a goddess??? Is it because they LIKE to think this otherwise they would all have to become CATHOLICS??? It seems to me that the catholics don’t defend their faith enough…Maybe it would help if we left a few notes under the video…imagine, if there is 100 of them, maybe it would make them go and study a bit about the catholic faith so they opened their eyes and realise that we don’t pray to statues and what they say is a lie!!!

And what is gained by you pointing the finger and saying “Look at those prostestants bad mouthing us!”

Instead of showing contempt, teach them.

 

[shawn38]

lol, that is Luther’s second commandment, not the actual second. The real second is that “you shall not take the name of the lord in vain”. If you are going to make that your second commandment, you better have NO pictures in your wallet, house, cubicle, whatever, since those would be graven images.

lol. Perhaps you should review the actual 10 cammandments, the Catholic version omits the 2nd (Exodus 20:4) and splits the 10th cammandment (Exodus 20:17) in two. But I’m sure you knew that.

And you had BETTER not have a cross around your neck, in your church, or anywhere else. Also, we venerate but never adore. Adoration is due God alone.

You’ll find a cross, but no crucifix.

Definition of veneration: To regard with respect, reverence, or heartfelt deference

This is the irony I find in that argument. You accuse us of breaking what Luther made the second commandment, but you break it in every church you build, in every photo you take, and in every cross you wear.

Pictures and etc. are a point of contention in many churches for this very reason…
Cross yes, crucifix no. There’s a difference.

But to the OP. we do not make the Blessed Virgin a goddess, and we do not worship Idols. We have no idols. We venerate Mary as the Theotokos, we have statues of those we consider worth veneration, and we pray to the saints in the old sense of the word. Pray = ask. We ask those whom we know to be in the presence of God to pray with us since “the prayers of a righteous man availeth much”. If you have something against asking the saints to pray for us, then you better not ask ANYONE to pray for you.

FSC
We repose all our hope in the most Blessed Virgin…who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world;…in her,…the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her, who with her only-begotten Son is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world…Having in her care
the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race…Appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth…she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Ineffabilis Deus

By the will of God this mother began to stand vigil over [advigilare] the Church and nurture us as His aide [administra] in effecting [patrandi] the sacrament of Redemption of mankind, **dispensing [pariter administra] the graces **that derive from our Redemption for all time with an almost boundless power granted her. Most appropriately, therefore, all peoples and cultures have lavished public praises upon her, which have escalated throughout the ages, among many of which we might mention: Our Lady (Domina), our mediatrix (mediatrix), the restorer (reparatrix) of the whole world, and the conciliatrix (conciliatrix) of the gifts of God. Adiutricem populi

The life and work of the Mother and Son are never disassociated…In the final moment of her Son, “His Mother stood by the cross of Jesus”, not just beholding the dread spectacle, but actually rejoicing that her only-begotten Son was being offered for the salvation of the human race. So perfect was the identity of her suffering with her Son that, if at all possible, she would sustain even more intensely all the torments her Son endured. Through this communion [communione] of pain and will between Christ and Mary, “she
merited [promeruit] to become the most worthy restorer [reparatrix] of a lost world,” and hence, too [atque ideo] the disburser [dispensatrix] of all the gifts which Jesus bought for us by the price of His death and His blood.18

At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "it is possible to understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community … which furthermore is based on the will of Christ."John Paul II VATICAN CITY, MAY 7, 1997 (VIS)
This is a quote from another source. The vatican link now takes you to the homepage only.

 

[bpbasilphx]

“The practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they [the images] be venerated by the faithful…” (Vatican II Vol. 1, p.35)
“…images of our Lord, his holy Mother, and of saints are displayed in churches for the veneration of the faithful.” (Vatican II Vol. 1, p. 193)
Saints and Mary too are venerated and adored.

Why it would be said:

2nd Commandment “You **shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness **of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; **you shall not bow down to them **nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

The issue is when the Bible says one thing and teh CC does something that appears contrary, a degree is generally affixed to it to justify it. This leads to interpretations.

And you actually think that “venerate” means the same thing as "the worship due to God alone?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

lol. Perhaps you should review the actual 10 cammandments, the Catholic version omits the 2nd (Exodus 20:4) and splits the 10th cammandment (Exodus 20:17) in two. But I’m sure you knew that.

lol, ok, so the ten commandments held by the Church and the Jews for millenia were wrong? Interesting… And when did we start using yours? We use the commandments that occur in BOTH… Bah, this is almost not worth discussing… Moving on…

You’ll find a cross, but no crucifix. Is the cross not a graven image? Is it imaginary? Does it not represent the cross upon which Christ was crucified?

We repose all our hope in the most Blessed Virgin…who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world;…in her,…the most trustworthy helper of all who are in danger; in her, who with her only-begotten Son is the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix in the whole world…Having in her care
the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race…Appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth…she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Ineffabilis Deus

By the will of God this mother began to stand vigil over [advigilare] the Church and nurture us as His aide [administra] in effecting [patrandi] the sacrament of Redemption of mankind, **dispensing [pariter administra] the graces **that derive from our Redemption for all time with an almost boundless power granted her. Most appropriately, therefore, all peoples and cultures have lavished public praises upon her, which have escalated throughout the ages, among many of which we might mention: Our Lady (Domina), our mediatrix (mediatrix), the restorer (reparatrix) of the whole world, and the conciliatrix (conciliatrix) of the gifts of God. Adiutricem populi

The life and work of the Mother and Son are never disassociated…In the final moment of her Son, “His Mother stood by the cross of Jesus”, not just beholding the dread spectacle, but actually rejoicing that her only-begotten Son was being offered for the salvation of the human race. So perfect was the identity of her suffering with her Son that, if at all possible, she would sustain even more intensely all the torments her Son endured. Through this communion [communione] of pain and will between Christ and Mary, “she
merited [promeruit] to become the most worthy restorer [reparatrix] of a lost world,” and hence, too [atque ideo] the disburser [dispensatrix] of all the gifts which Jesus bought for us by the price of His death and His blood.18

At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "it is possible to understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community … which furthermore is based on the will of Christ."John Paul II VATICAN CITY, MAY 7, 1997 (VIS)
This is a quote from another source. The vatican link now takes you to the homepage only.

Dont know what you are getting at… that is the Church’s stance…

FSC

 

[chessmane4e5]

Dear friends

it really upsets me when protestants spread untruths and lies about the catholic faith. In most cases, I’m convinced, it is so because they are unaware what catholics really believe (maybe if they studied it before making claims they would have to acknowledge that what they’re saying doesn’t make sense. Or am I being too brave?)

Some one just linked this video in another thread, not that they were saying it was true, but I am posting it as an example of what you are talking about.

youtube.com/watch?v=4pKWi-Om6uM

It is almost laughable, (if it were not so full of lies), especially how he has the guy that is “defending” the Catholic face get all angry and look like an idiot. I would love to debate whom ever made this video in person.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

When someone spreads untruths, it’s the same thing as bearing false witness.

 

[Deborah27]

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

It seems that some protestants like to use the 2nd commandment to accuse the Catholics of idolatry. Quoting “You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them, nor serve them”. Then that means God gave his people the Ten Commandments then in Exodus 25 instructed Moses to make an ark with 2 cheribum ( a likeness of anything in heaven) to be placed at the two ends. In Numbers 21:8 God instructed Moses to make a saraph ( a likeness of anything of the earth) and mount it on a pole so that anyone bitten by a serpent could look upon it and be healed. If the 2nd commandment was to not have any carved images, period, then it would seem that God instructed his people to violate the very law he had given them to follow. I do not believe God would do that.

As far as worshiping idols, something Catholics are accused of regularly, kneeling in front of images and praying… I was raised Southern Baptist and attended church every Sunday, with the exception for illness; and even then the grim reaper had to be knocking on your door before that excuse was acceptable. Many, many times I saw the preacher do what was referred to as an alter call, where he would invite the congregation down to kneel in front of the alter or at the foot of the cross and pray. I saw countless members of the congregation answer that call and they would go kneel in front of a wooden image and pray. Now, do I think they were worshiping and praying to the wooden images? NO. It would be wrong for me to assume to know what is in their hearts and minds at that time. To pass judgement without knowing what is in someones heart and mind; without knowing the true facts of what they are doing, is not a just judgement. Someone on the outside looking in, not really understanding what the Baptists are doing, could make the same assumption about them as some protestants make about the Catholics. I don’t understand how the protestants can accuse the Catholics of worshiping idols because of how we practice our religion, when they do the same thing. We’re kneeling and praying to God in the same manner they are.

It has been my experience that when a protestant states an objection to me about the Catholic religion, it is based on something they’ve been told as opposed to them studying and learning what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Now when I’m faced with an objection from a protestant, I ask them why they think that about the Catholics, where did they get that information? When I ask them if they’ve actually read anything on what the Catholic church actually teaches, the answer is almost always, no. Sometimes it does make them think that maybe they should study more about the religion so they can learn the truth. I know some protestants that have actually done this and are surprised by the misconceptions they had about the Catholic church. And, by the way, they too converted to the Catholic Religion.

 

[Nine_Two]

Where do you find that these creatures are in heaven? You find them guarding the Garden of Eden, you find them on the Ark, and you find them stiched into fabric.

So what you’re saying is making a statue of Satan and venerating that would be acceptable to you, since he’s not in heaven.

Edit: That explanation comes off as incredibly hennotheistic. You’re saying that you believe the images the pagans made, which this verse was refering to, actually resided in Heaven?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Where do you find that these creatures are in heaven? You find them guarding the Garden of Eden, you find them on the Ark, and you find them stiched into fabric.

That’s how you’re going to justify that? What about ANY figure?

Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

 

[reggieM]

Many, many times I saw the preacher do what was referred to as an alter call, where he would invite the congregation down to kneel in front of the alter or at the foot of the cross and pray. I saw countless members of the congregation answer that call and they would go kneel in front of a wooden image and pray.

That is fascinating. I didn’t think about that and it’s a very good point. The altar and cross are symbols of Christ. When the people kneel down in front of it, they’re worshipping God - not the cross. I’ve seen it done myself and never thought about it because I would never think that they were worshipping an inanimate object.

 

[reggieM]

That’s right.

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image **or any likeness **that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them, nor serve them”.

So even if the idea was that cherubim were not in heaven, then they were on the earth – so images of them were supposedly forbidden.

And as Deborah27 pointed out, Moses made a bronze saraph – another graven image (and people were healed when they looked at it – so it had something to do with the power of God).

The commandments have to be interpreted differently – looking at what God intended through them. It’s not to teach that sculpture is an evil activity – but that to forbid the creation of pagan idols which are worshipped in place of God.

I hope shawn38 will take a closer look at this evidence.

 

[Justy90]

Dear friends

it really upsets me when protestants spread untruths and lies about the catholic faith. In most cases, I’m convinced, it is so because they are unaware what catholics really believe (maybe if they studied it before making claims they would have to acknowledge that what they’re saying doesn’t make sense. Or am I being too brave?)

I give you this short video as example that is full of claims that have NO sense, are just wrong and have no scriptural ground. Why do the protestant think that we worship statues and make Mary a a goddess??? Is it because they LIKE to think this otherwise they would all have to become CATHOLICS??? It seems to me that the catholics don’t defend their faith enough…Maybe it would help if we left a few notes under the video…imagine, if there is 100 of them, maybe it would make them go and study a bit about the catholic faith so they opened their eyes and realise that we don’t pray to statues and what they say is a lie!!!

youtube.com/watch?v=03rAqZtpYQ8

Which of the 30,000 + Protestants are you speaking of? Or do all Protestants just irritate you so it doesn’t matter. It baseless hatred and garbage like this that keeps meaningful dialogue from happening. It’s just more of the same “we are better than you” rhetoric on here and its sad and unfortunate.