Protestants spread untruths about catholic faith!

[Bob_Crowley]

Dear friends

it really upsets me when protestants spread untruths and lies about the catholic faith. In most cases, I’m convinced, it is so because they are unaware what catholics really believe (maybe if they studied it before making claims they would have to acknowledge that what they’re saying doesn’t make sense. Or am I being too brave?)

I give you this short video as example that is full of claims that have NO sense, are just wrong and have no scriptural ground. Why do the protestant think that we worship statues and make Mary a a goddess??? Is it because they LIKE to think this otherwise they would all have to become CATHOLICS??? It seems to me that the catholics don’t defend their faith enough…Maybe it would help if we left a few notes under the video…imagine, if there is 100 of them, maybe it would make them go and study a bit about the catholic faith so they opened their eyes and realise that we don’t pray to statues and what they say is a lie!!!

youtube.com/watch?v=03rAqZtpYQ8

My old Protestant pastor once commented to me that “Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church”. He also said of Marian warnings “There’s been a lot of them and they line up with Scripture. I think they’re a judgment on a divided church”.

And once he admitted “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven.” He also thought that if there was a “false prophet” in Revelation, then it was Martin Luther. In his words, “Some of the things Luther said and did weren’t very Christian” (to put it mildly).

What annoyed me about him, and still does, is that he never had the courage to say these things publicly. I think he was judged for it when he himself died.

The lies ultimately originate from Satan. He’s got a very keen interest in keeping the church divided. It’s one of the main reasons the church is so ineffective today.

The trouble is that they believe a lot of the junk, and so they perpetuate these lies in good faith. If my old pastor was correct, while Satan may not be able to make a claim to Protestants who have faith in Christ, he’d certainly have an interest in keeping them out of heaven. And the best way to do that is to use their own ignorance against them.

I remember that when an otherwise good man died in my wife’s Baptist Church, I had a distinct sense of his being embarassed about a few things. I think his attitude towards the Catholic Church may have been one of them.

 

[ChadS]

My old Protestant pastor once commented to me that “Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church”. He also said of Marian warnings “There’s been a lot of them and they line up with Scripture. I think they’re a judgment on a divided church”.

And once he admitted “I sometimes wonder if Protestants get into heaven.” He also thought that if there was a “false prophet” in Revelation, then it was Martin Luther. In his words, “Some of the things Luther said and did weren’t very Christian” (to put it mildly).

What annoyed me about him, and still does, is that he never had the courage to say these things publicly. I think he was judged for it when he himself died.

The lies ultimately originate from Satan. He’s got a very keen interest in keeping the church divided. It’s one of the main reasons the church is so ineffective today.

The trouble is that they believe a lot of the junk, and so they perpetuate these lies in good faith. If my old pastor was correct, while Satan may not be able to make a claim to Protestants who have faith in Christ, he’d certainly have an interest in keeping them out of heaven. And the best way to do that is to use their own ignorance against them.

I remember that when an otherwise good man died in my wife’s Baptist Church, I had a distinct sense of his being embarassed about a few things. I think his attitude towards the Catholic Church may have been one of them.

I wouldn’t be too tough on your old pastor. If he truly held those beliefs then at least he hopefully wasn’t engaging in the worst anti-Catholic rhetoric that is out there. For many Protestants, especially those involved in a ministry, it is difficult to take those final steps and convert. I can imagine his hesitancy especially if asked to give up his entire career, alienate hundreds of friends and perhaps lose them and then have to find a new job. It’s one thing for a regular guy like you or me to get up from the pew and leave but it’s something entirely different for the pastor to step down. I trust that he was doing some good with his beliefs he had and it’s pastors like that that can be a bridge for ecumenism.

Once I finally converted I can remember being embarrassed and ashamed of some of the things I used to think about the Church. Certainly it wasn’t the worst of the worst out there but it wasn’t always charitable.

ChadS

 

[reggieM]

I think we saw an example here. Shawn38 made an accusation and was given abundant information to help correct his errors. Now it’s difficult to change one’s mind - especially in religious matters like this. The ideas are embraced at a deeply personal and emotional level. We can show that the opposition to Catholicism on those grounds is unreasonable. The person thinks he is being “pure” in his faith by adhering to “what the Bible says”. Then we show that he is inconsistent and he interprets away things that he doesn’t like in the Bible (Moses making a graven image of a bronze serpent). So it’s not a matter of “what the Bible says”, but rather, “what the opinions of my brand of Protestantism say” that are embraced so firmly.

We now need to show that he is doing just that – adhering to a particularly Protestant worldview which claims that it doesn’t even need to interpret the Bible (while at the same time, imposes its own opinions on what the Bible means).

It’s also unfortunate that the term Protestant covers such a diverse variety of beliefs that the only consistent meaning it has regards its separation from apostolic Chrisitanity in the 16th century (as a starting point).

 

[reggieM]

And, by the way, Luther and Lutherans are not iconoclasts. Lutherans have crucifixes, statues, etc. When Luther was away for a period of time, a man named Karlstadt broke statues, etc. When Luther returned, he was highly critical of Karlstadt and told him and his followers to stop.

Was Karlstadt the first Protestant to begin the iconoclasm that we’ve been talking about?

 

[schaick]

I frequent many Muslim forums and Muslims always accuse Catholics of worshipping Mary-bowing down to her statue in worship, etc.

I always correct them!

My hope and prayer is that I never spread an untruth about any fellow Christians! If I have then it was a misunderstanding of their doctrine, teachings.

At this point in time there is no reason for fellow Christians to spread untruths about each others teachings. Christians must stand together and be ready to fight in the battle that stands ahead of us.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

lol. Perhaps you should review the actual 10 cammandments, the Catholic version omits the 2nd (Exodus 20:4) and splits the 10th cammandment (Exodus 20:17) in two. But I’m sure you knew that.

Firstly, the Commandments are NOT numbered in Sacred Scripture. The numbering is a tradition of men.

Secondly, Catholics do not omit what you refer to as the 2nd Commandment. We consider it part of the FIRST Commandment to not have any other gods before the one, true God.

Finally, I think any happily married man would agree that someone coveting his car is a very different matter than someone coveting his wife.

 

[rinnie]

I have seen protestants spread untruths about our faith but when confronted to prove it they never can. Wonder why? Guess we do not have to wonder. We not only believe that our faith is the true faith we know it is.

Many times there has been the questions asked show us one thing in our faith that goes against the word of God.

Well so far its never happened. And won’t its impossible.

Jesus told his Apostles I will be with you until the end of time. Well!! Time has not ended yet!

 

[schaick]

It’s also unfortunate that the term Protestant covers such a diverse variety of beliefs that the only consistent meaning it has regards its separation from apostolic Chrisitanity in the 16th century (as a starting point).

I use the term Trinitarian Christian instead of simply Protestant Christian. To weed out Jehovah Witnesses, Christadelphians, Oneness and Apostolic Pentecostal, Mormons[Tritheistic], some Unitarians, etc…

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

It[SIGN] seems that some protestants like to use the 2nd commandment to accuse the Catholics of idolatry. Quoting [/SIGN]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them, nor serve them”. Then that means God gave his people the Ten Commandments then in Exodus 25 instructed Moses to make an ark with 2 cheribum ( a likeness of anything in heaven) to be placed at the two ends. In Numbers 21:8 God instructed Moses to make a saraph ( a likeness of anything of the earth) and mount it on a pole so that anyone bitten by a serpent could look upon it and be healed. If the 2nd commandment was to not have any carved images, period, then it would seem that God instructed his people to violate the very law he had given them to follow. I do not believe God would do that.

As far as worshiping idols, something Catholics are accused of regularly, kneeling in front of images and praying… I was raised Southern Baptist and attended church every Sunday, with the exception for illness; and even then the grim reaper had to be knocking on your door before that excuse was acceptable. Many, many times I saw the preacher do what was referred to as an alter call, where he would invite the congregation down to kneel in front of the alter or at the foot of the cross and pray. I saw countless members of the congregation answer that call and they would go kneel in front of a wooden image and pray. Now, do I think they were worshiping and praying to the wooden images? NO. It would be wrong for me to assume to know what is in their hearts and minds at that time. To pass judgement without knowing what is in someones heart and mind; without knowing the true facts of what they are doing, is not a just judgement. Someone on the outside looking in, not really understanding what the Baptists are doing, could make the same assumption about them as some protestants make about the Catholics. I don’t understand how the protestants can accuse the Catholics of worshiping idols because of how we practice our religion, when they do the same thing. We’re kneeling and praying to God in the same manner they are.

It has been my experience that when a protestant states an objection to me about the Catholic religion, it is based on something they’ve been told as opposed to them studying and learning what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Now when I’m faced with an objection from a protestant, I ask them why they think that about the Catholics, where did they get that information? When I ask them if they’ve actually read anything on what the Catholic church actually teaches, the answer is almost always, no. Sometimes it does make them think that maybe they should study more about the religion so they can learn the truth. I know some protestants that have actually done this and are surprised by the misconceptions they had about the Catholic church. And, by the way, they too converted to the Catholic Religion.

I disagree they don’t like to accuse us of that, they LOVE TO I always like to put that puppy to rest on these words. We as Catholics do not think that a Statue made of Jesus or the Saints is indeed them. We understand they are never replacing the real thing.

As far as false idols a statue of Jesus is not a false idol. Jesus indeed revealed himself to man in mans image.

So praying in front of a statue in no ways means we are replacing that statue with God. We know that God is not a statue.

So if I have a statue of the Blessed Mother in front of my house Do I believe that it is the Blessed Mother or a statue of her that has been revealed to me by God!

Yes I have a statue of the Blessed Mother, it is not a false image, and it is not the real Blessed Mother.

But here is what bothers me. I have been past many many protestants church’s. And have seen these Statues displayed that we as Catholics have been so boldy accused of.

How many of you have seen the manger out in front of Protestant Church’s? Funny you can see sin in another but not in yourself. So they claim a statue is a carved image, why can they have them and be fine. But Catholics have to go down with the ship?

 

[Catholic90]

lol. Perhaps you should review the actual 10 cammandments, the Catholic version omits the 2nd (Exodus 20:4) and splits the 10th cammandment (Exodus 20:17) in two. But I’m sure you knew that.

And the Catholic version has been around longer than the Protestant version, since the Protestants did not exist until the reformation. But I’m sure you knew that. (So which is the “actual” version, Catholic or Protestant?)

Numbering is MAN’S doing. Below are several versions from different websites. Just doing a Google search brings up over 9 MILLION results.

I personally like “History of the World’s” version …"Moses proclaims “The Lord Jehovah has given unto you these fifteen…” (whereupon he drops one of the tablets, which promptly shatters) “Oy…Ten! Ten Commandments! For all to obey!”

Jewish

Catholic
Protestant*

I
I am the Lord your G-d who has taken you out of the land of Egypt.
I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
You shall have no other gods but me.

**II****You shall have no other gods but me.****You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain.****You shall not make unto you any graven images.IIIYou shall not take the name of the Lord your G-d in vain.****Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.****You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.**IV

**You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.****Honor your father and your mother.****You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.VHonor your mother and father.****You shall not kill.****Honor your mother and father.VIYou shall not murder.****You shall not commit adultery.****You shall not murder.VIIYou shall not commit adultery.****You shall not steal.****You shall not commit adultery.VIIIYou shall not steal. ****You shall not bear false witness.****You shall not steal.IXYou shall not bear false witness.****You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.****You shall not bear false witness.XYou shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.****You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.**You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Edited to say: Oooh this formatted weird and I do not have time to reformat it now. Just go to Wiki and search. There is a very nice table there.

Division of the Ten Commandments by religion/denominationCommandmentJewish (Talmudic)Anglican, Reformed, and other ChristianOrthodoxCatholic, Lutheran**I am the Lord your God1preface11You shall have no other gods before me21You shall not make for yourself an idol22You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God3332Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy4443Honor your father and mother5554You shall not murder6665You shall not commit adultery7776You shall not steal8887You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor9998You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife1010109You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor10

 

[Lutheranteach]

I think both sides of the coin have plenty to feel guilty about on this issue. In the short time I’ve visited this forum I’ve heard at least five times that “protestants” don’t believe in the real presence. Well, that is not 100% accurate by any stretch as there are several denominations that do. There are some other minor things that I don’t see as vital, but that one really annoys me.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think both sides of the coin have plenty to feel guilty about on this issue. In the short time I’ve visited this forum I’ve heard at least five times that “protestants” don’t believe in the real presence. Well, that is not 100% accurate by any stretch as there are several denominations that do. There are some other minor things that I don’t see as vital, but that one really annoys me.

Lutheranteach, there’s a difference between saying ‘Protestants’ don’t believe in the real presence (which is true for the majority of Protestant denominations) and the vile way SOME Protestants attack the Catholic faith on other forums.

Some have come here and tried the same tactics, but the moderators won’t tolerate it and if you notice, the moderators here won’t tolerate Catholics ‘crossing the line’ here, evident by the banning of Catholic posters. This verifies your statement that it can be a ‘two way’ activity, but no one claims all people in any one Church are perfect, in fact, I don’t think any one would claim there is a perfect one in any Church. We’re all humans and prone to sin.

I’d recommend you continue correcting those type ‘generalizations’ with explanations to remove any misconceptions.

 

[reggieM]

It would be more true to say “Calvinists do not believe in the real presence”, rather than including all Protestants. But the other difficult part is that there is no one, official set of Protestant doctrines so it’s hard to generalize. I think when there are comments on CAF about Protestants in general, it usually means the stereotypical idea of American Protestantism – mostly Calvinist, fundamentalist, Sola Scriptura, non-sacramental, etc.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Lutheranteach, there’s a difference between saying ‘Protestants’ don’t believe in the real presence (which is true for the majority of Protestant denominations) and the vile way SOME Protestants attack the Catholic faith on other forums.

Some have come here and tried the same tactics, but the moderators won’t tolerate it and if you notice, the moderators here won’t tolerate Catholics ‘crossing the line’ here, evident by the banning of Catholic posters. This verifies your statement that it can be a ‘two way’ activity, but no one claims all people in any one Church are perfect, in fact, I don’t think any one would claim there is a perfect one in any Church. We’re all humans and prone to sin.

I’d recommend you continue correcting those type ‘generalizations’ with explanations to remove any misconceptions.

I will, and I will often, when I see it, correct my protestant friends when they are off base when it comes to Catholics…which I do often and bluntly.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I wouldn’t be too tough on your old pastor. If he truly held those beliefs then at least he hopefully wasn’t engaging in the worst anti-Catholic rhetoric that is out there. For many Protestants, especially those involved in a ministry, it is difficult to take those final steps and convert. I can imagine his hesitancy especially if asked to give up his entire career, alienate hundreds of friends and perhaps lose them and then have to find a new job. It’s one thing for a regular guy like you or me to get up from the pew and leave but it’s something entirely different for the pastor to step down. I trust that he was doing some good with his beliefs he had and it’s pastors like that that can be a bridge for ecumenism.

Once I finally converted I can remember being embarrassed and ashamed of some of the things I used to think about the Church. Certainly it wasn’t the worst of the worst out there but it wasn’t always charitable.

ChadS

Yeah, well, I suppose my other grudge was a fair amount of discouragement. Generally he was very wise and quite prophetic. If he said something was likely to happen, it nearly always did.

I’ve written elsewhere that the night my father died, he appeared in my room. During the ensuing discussion, one of the specific statements he made (in 1979) before he disappeared with one almighty, terrifying scream was “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”.

Some years later, around about the same time the pastor and I were discussing the issue of Luther, Protestant flaws, etc., the pastor apologised to me (c. 1990 / 91) with the following words, “I owe you an apology… You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is discourage you even more!” I then pointed out what my father had said about him, which he had repeated almost word for word. He was somewhat shaken, and said, “You really did see your father that night!” My Catholic psychiatrist also believes he appeared in my room the night he died.

The pastor wouldn’t mean much to you, but in Queensland, Australia, the name of Rev. Robert Missenden was held in very high regard in church circles (with the exception of one particularly stupid, dogmatic and evil Calvinistic pastor, whom my pastor called “bugalug”). The above Catholic psychiatrist made this comment, “Whenever I heard the name of Mr. Missenden mentioned in church circles, it was always with the highest respect.”

In other words, he had a lot of spiritual respect. And he should have said something in public.

Let’s put it this way - if there’s not one Protestant in heaven, don’t you think it would have been worth his while to say something?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I personally like “History of the World’s” version …"Moses proclaims “The Lord Jehovah has given unto you these fifteen…” (whereupon he drops one of the tablets, which promptly shatters) “Oy…Ten! Ten Commandments! For all to obey!”

Or when God gives Moses a single Commandment, “Thou shalt love the Lord etc.”

Being Jewish, Moses asks “How much will this cost?”

God says, “Nothing. It’s free”.

Moses … “Free? All right, I’ll take ten!”

 

[ChadS]

Let’s put it this way - if there’s not one Protestant in heaven, don’t you think it would have been worth his while to say something?

If that was something he truly believed and wasn’t just a rhetorical question then he definitely had a duty to say or do something about it. He sounds like a very conflicted man that may have been unsure of many things himself.

ChadS

 

[Bob_Crowley]

If that was something he truly believed and wasn’t just a rhetorical question then he definitely had a duty to say or do something about it. He sounds like a very conflicted man that may have been unsure of many things himself.

ChadS

He wasn’t a “very conflicted” man. He was actually a very wise and spiritual man, whose main fault was that he tended to discourage people. In my case he was more discouraging than usual.

I think his main misgiving may have been the Protestant position, which I am sure was something that developed over time. When he made the comment that he thought Luther may have been the “false prophet” (Google “Martin Luther - Adold Hitler’s spiritual ancestor by Peter Wiener” for some details about that), he was in the last couple of years of his life.

Yet years earlier he gave the middle name “Luther” to one of his sons. So obviously he must have learnt a bit from the time he was a young pastor to a much more experienced man.

I’m a bit cranky because I’d already put up with 20 years of intense discouragement from my own father, who had a deliberate personal policy of destroying my confidence. I didn’t need another nine years of discouragement on top of that. That’s one of the reasons I’d never set foot inside a Presbyterian Church except for a formal occasion. I put about nine years of fairly consistent effort into that church, supporting several ministries, and just about always being on hand to help out whenever they needed it, and all I got for it was discouragement from the pastor and a conspiracy to wreck my career from another hard line Calvinist (although this other bloke also deliberately wrecked the careers of at least eight of his fellow pastors by conspiracy, and destroyed my old pastor’s church when he’d gone, as my old pastor predicted, which would tell you what sort of man this other bloke is).

I haven’t got much time for John Knox’s legacy. Whenever I pass a Presbyterian Church, I do so with a very sour taste in my mouth.

But that’s by the by. But he should have said something. He’d already jumped ship once before on a much lesser issue, when he moved from what we call the Uniting Church (losing his superannuation in the process), to the Presbyterian. He was actually Methodist by training.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pixie Dust…go visit the thread, ‘Sabbath’…but watch out for your blood pressure.

The thing about statues, they are symbols of our devotion…they are art forms…they are symbols of God’s faithful humanity…they are expressions of our faith…

I have gone into some non-denominational churches and they are no different than a secular meeting hall…but have the Bible on a stand…

When the Bible is used to distort and fragment Christianity, for me it is blaspheming the Word of God and using it to make enemies.

The Holy Spirit works through the Bible, not hatred and ignorance.

 

[Darron_Steele]

Dear friends

it really upsets me when protestants spread untruths and lies about the catholic faith. In most cases, I’m convinced, it is so because they are unaware what catholics really believe

Not always. Some do not do this at all. The ones that do: sometimes yes, others no.

(maybe if they studied it before making claims they would have to acknowledge that what they’re saying doesn’t make sense. Or am I being too brave?)

Many times, even after being told the truth of what Catholics really believe/do and why, such people still assert their smears.

I give you this short video as example that is full of claims that have NO sense, are just wrong and have no scriptural ground. Why do the protestant think that we worship statues and make Mary a a goddess??? Is it because they LIKE to think this otherwise they would all have to become CATHOLICS??? …

No; some of these people hate Catholics and like to say whatever nasty things about them they think they can get away with.

You are reading this from a hardened fundamentalist. I will not defend the activities of these people. I will tell you that this sort of thing is not right.