Protestants: Tackle This

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graceandglory said:
If you loved me and thought I was really dying, wouldn’t you try to save me? If I am so deceived, help me out here.

You won’t answer me because you can’t.
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Your claim should not be dignified with a further response.

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You might start with a grammatical sentence.

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False. Patently false.

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What is with you folks?

Well. If that is what you take for rudeness, what are you doing on a thread that asks Protestants to defend several overgeneralized and false charges against them? Seems like you’re asking for a fair amount of disagreement by being here. There are other “easier” and friendlier threads.
 
so you are saying that if the Catholic church has doctrinal errors, Jesus is a lier? Its not that you a re wrong its that Jesus is a lier? really?
 
shawn38 said:
You have to be open to receiving the Spirit and be willing to continue in the faith or have you truly accepted Christ? Probably not
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Please be charitable!!! Who are you to say that someone has not accepted our Lord into their heart? Think. Don’t judge and you won’t be judged!
MyRdmrLvs said:
so you are saying that if the Catholic church has doctrinal errors, Jesus is a lier? Its not that you a re wrong its that Jesus is a lier? really?
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As Catholics, we believe Christ founded an infallible Church. A Church of Truth. However, we are all humans and we fail. We make up that infallible Church and so if we fall, it is not our Church that should be held accountable, it is us. I’m sure that is what the OP’s point was.
 
I think some definitions and clarifications would be helpful to me understand the point better.
My question is - according to Catholic teaching, where is the dividing line between Church teaching that is an infallible doctinal statement vs. other beliefs/opinions of the Church? Is it the canons of the 21 ecumenical councils, plus ex cathedra infallible statements of the Pope? Is it all that plus everything in the Catechism? Or some other line?

In other words, if I were to convert to Catholicism, where would I go for the list of things that I would have to consent to as binding, infallible doctrine?
 
How is this “Church” in any way separate from the decisions of its human members and leaders? You keep referring to the infallibility of “it,” but I don’t see how an “it” exists in this case, except as an abstract human idea or projection of an idea of God. But as an institution it is lead, and governed, and engineered by men–the human, fallible, and mortal kind.
 
larkin31 said:
what do you mean by “The Church”? This was my question, really.
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The Church that Christ built, gave the keys to the kingdom of heaven too, gave the authority to bind and loose and the authority to forgive and retain sins, through the men He ordained/appointed and their successors.
 
Yes, thank you. I already know this Catholic answer. I am trying to follow this answer with another question for clarification and understanding, so let me try again:

How is this “Church” (apparently infallible) separate from the decisions of the humans (fallible) that actually make it up? Is there a way to show Protestants that this thing called “The Church” is anything other than a projection of an absolutist idea? Even Peter was not infallible…
 
larkin31 said:
Yes, thank you. I already know this Catholic answer. I am trying to follow this answer with another question for clarification and understanding, so let me try again:

How is this “Church” (apparently infallible) separate from the decisions of the humans (fallible) that actually make it up? Is there a way to show Protestants that this thing called “The Church” is anything other than a projection of an absolutist idea? Even Peter was not infallible…
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How is it one can doubt Christ’s power to keep an infallible Church because of fallible men?

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

The ‘point’ you raise brings other questions to mind. Do you consider the Bible to be infallible? It was written by fallible men. The definition of the canon was defined by fallible men. The Bible was preserved through the centuries by fallible men. The Bible was translated by fallible men. The Bible is interpreted by fallible men.
 

Is it not the CC that defines it the way you’re defining it?​

Using your logic, God made Adam sinful and all of the sinfulness of mankind is God’s fault. Beliefs have meaning that’s why we must be careful what we think is true.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
How is it one can doubt Christ’s power to keep an infallible Church because of fallible men?

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

The ‘point’ you raise brings other questions to mind. Do you consider the Bible to be infallible? It was written by fallible men. The definition of the canon was defined by fallible men. The Bible was preserved through the centuries by fallible men. The Bible was translated by fallible men. The Bible is interpreted by fallible men.
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I am asking you to define what this “Church” is and how it is separate from the humans in it. Do I need to try to rephrase the question? You seem to be repeating that you believe it is infallible because Jesus started it. I know that Jesus started it. I am asking what that has to do with the fact that Jesus then immediately died and this worship immediately became a congregation (church) of fallible men and women. Whether there is a God or not, how is/was this congregation infallible? Other than as an idea?
 
Could someone define what the church is that Jesus established (define not name)?
 
I was thinking yesterday at work (and yes every once in a while I actually think) all this ‘talk’ about the Church and its importance and the ‘talk’ about wheter Mary was a perpetual virgin effectively takes our eyes off Jesus. Jesus is the One the writer of Hebrews (chp 12) tell us to look unto for He and He alone is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
 

Sounds like what my dad used to say, ‘Do what I say not as I do.’ 😃​

Did you answer my question?
 
larkin31 said:
I am asking you to define what this “Church” is and how it is separate from the humans in it. Do I need to try to rephrase the question? You seem to be repeating that you believe it is infallible because Jesus started it. I know that Jesus started it. I am asking what that has to do with the fact that Jesus then immediately died and this worship immediately became a congregation (church) of fallible men and women. Whether there is a God or not, how is/was this congregation infallible? Other than as an idea?
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Jesus not only started it and gave it authority, through His own authority, He promised to be with it until the consummation of the world. He spoke those words to ‘mortal’ men and He knew they would die eventually but, that His Church would continue until the consummation of the world. By Christ’s promises, the Church is infallible.

**Mar 13:32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 Even as a man who, going into a far country, left his house and gave authority to his servants over every work and commanded the porter to watch.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you**
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
How is it one can doubt Christ’s power to keep an infallible Church because of fallible men?

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

The ‘point’ you raise brings other questions to mind. Do you consider the Bible to be infallible? It was written by fallible men. The definition of the canon was defined by fallible men. The Bible was preserved through the centuries by fallible men. The Bible was translated by fallible men. The Bible is interpreted by fallible men.
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So if those in Moses seat are infallible why do you not follow them today?

The bible was infallibly written by fallible men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God will accomplish His will in spite of fallible men.

If you have the power of infallibility why would you limit it to only faith and morals isn’t everything else just as important? Or is it just limited infallibility?
 
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