Protestants: Tackle This

[Prodigal_Son1]

So if those in Moses seat are infallible why do you not follow them today?

There is a new and everlasting covenant.

The bible was infallibly written by fallible men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. God will accomplish His will in spite of fallible men.

The Church was built by Christ. He promised the Holy Spirit would guide it. Christ’s will accomplish God’s will in spite of fallible men.

If you have the power of infallibility why would you limit it to only faith and morals isn’t everything else just as important? Or is it just limited infallibility?

1Co 2:14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.
1Co 2:15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Christ/God, not only had the power to protect His truth through the written word, He has the power to protect His truth through the Church He built.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Good question.​

BTW, Larkin, this came to mind as I looked at your ‘bio’.

leestrobel.com/videos/Helping/CCNT1463.htm

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth…”

Where does Christ say scriptures will lead us in all truth?

If we cannot trust the Church that Christ built, because of fallible men, can we trust the inspired word of God, because of fallible men? Christ built, is the same as God inspired. Christ never wrote, or ordered anything scribed, but He did say He was building a Church. There is more than one authority. If we cannot trust one, how can we trust the other?

Please don’t twist the question to mean Catholics don’t believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. We do. We also believe in Christ’s power and promises to protect His truth through the Chruch He built.

 

[Dokimas]

Was I deflecting or bring sensibility back into the discussion?​

You see what you’re saying: ‘You can’t see Jesus unless you’re looking at the chruch.’ Speaking of deflection.

 

[jericho777]

There is a new and everlasting covenant.

The Church was built by Christ. He promised the Holy Spirit would guide it. Christ’s will accomplish God’s will in spite of fallible men.

1Co 2:14 But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God. For it is foolishness to him: and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.
1Co 2:15 But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Christ/God, not only had the power to protect His truth through the written word, He has the power to protect His truth through the Church He built.

This is saying all believers have the Spirit and the mind of Christ He is not limited to an organization.

How come you only have limited infallibility?

 

[Dokimas]

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

“When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth…”

Where does Christ say scriptures will lead us in all truth?

If we cannot trust the Church that Christ built, because of fallible men, can we trust the inspired word of God, because of fallible men? Christ built, is the same as God inspired. Christ never wrote, or ordered anything scribed, but He did say He was building a Church. There is more than one authority. If we cannot trust one, how can we trust the other?

Please don’t twist the question to mean Catholics don’t believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. We do. We also believe in Christ’s power and promises to protect His truth through the Chruch He built.

The verse you provide says the Spirit will guide; it does NOT say the church will guide. We can trust the Spirit not the church.​

Here’s were we get off – we don’t obey the Holy Spirit. What He says would include for starters Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus tells us Who has the authority so often in question on this board.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Was I deflecting or bring sensibility back into the discussion?​

You see what you’re saying: ‘You can’t see Jesus unless you’re looking at the chruch.’ Speaking of deflection.

You can see Jesus from many places. You can understand Him more clearly in the body of Christ, where He is the head. Where the head is, His word is made clearer.

Surely it’s not lacking sensibility to believe in Christ building a Church and promising the Spirit of truth would lead it in all truth?

 

[jericho777]

The church in scripture is not an organization but a body of believers knit together in Christ Jesus to be a witness for Him on earth. And ultimately His bride.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The verse you provide says the Spirit will guide; it does NOT say the church will guide. We can trust the Spirit not the church.​

Here’s were we get off – we don’t obey the Holy Spirit. What He says would include for starters Matthew 28:18-20, Jesus tells us Who has the authority so often in question on this board.

He was speaking to those He gave authority over the Church too. He knew these were mortal men who would not be alive until the consummation of the world. He knew their successors would be and they would be in His Church. They are guided by the Spirit of truth and they are in His Church.

**Mar 13:32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 Even as a man who, going into a far country, left his house and gave authority to his servants over every work and commanded the porter to watch. **

Jesus told those in Matthew 28:18 - 20, He had the authority to send them out.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The church in scripture is not an organization but a body of believers knit together in Christ Jesus to be a witness for Him on earth. And ultimately His bride.

The Church has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the power to forgive or retain sins. There has to be a hierarchy, of there is chaos. How can a body of believes claim those authorities without accepting that Christ built that authority to begin with. They did not choose Him, He chose them. The following was spoken only to the Apostles.

Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The church in scripture is not an organization but a body of believers knit together in Christ Jesus to be a witness for Him on earth. And ultimately His bride.

Jericho, I assume, we both believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. Why is it God inspired the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of the Bible? Why is it God inspired it be written that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church, instead of the Bible?

The 'body of believers, from the Protestant perspective, has divided the body of Christ into many denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines based on someone’s interpretation of scriptures, and all claiming the truth as guided by the Holy Spirit. Can multiple truths be the one truth Christ taught?

 

[tweetymom]

The Church has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the power to forgive or retain sins. There has to be a hierarchy, of there is chaos. How can a body of believes claim those authorities without accepting that Christ built that authority to begin with. They did not choose Him, He chose them. The following was spoken only to the Apostles.

Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Does the scripture say I have only choosen the CC? I think not.

 

[Dokimas]

You can see Jesus from many places. Agreed You can understand Him more clearly in the body of Christ Agreed even though we’d ‘define’ who is the Body of Christ, where He is the head Agreed. Where the head is, His word is made clearer. Agreed although I’m sure we’d not completely agreed what you mean here.
Surely it’s not lacking sensibility to believe in Christ building a Church and promising the Spirit of truth would lead it in all truth? Of course you’re correct here. It’s how we each would apply this truth that is different.

 

[Dokimas]

He was speaking to those He gave authority over the Church too. He knew these were mortal men who would not be alive until the consummation of the world. He knew their successors would be and they would be in His Church. They are guided by the Spirit of truth and they are in His Church.

Mar 13:32 But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray. For ye know not when the time is.
Mar 13:34 Even as a man who, going into a far country, left his house and gave authority to his servants over every work and commanded the porter to watch.

Jesus told those in Matthew 28:18 - 20, He had the authority to send them out.

Again, wonderful verses and wonderful thoughts. I don’t disagree with the face of this. It’s how this is applied that is in question here.

 

[tweetymom]

Sorry we the believers in Christ make up His Church.

 

[jericho777]

The Church has the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose and the power to forgive or retain sins. There has to be a hierarchy, of there is chaos. How can a body of believes claim those authorities without accepting that Christ built that authority to begin with. They did not choose Him, He chose them. The following was spoken only to the Apostles.

Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

There should be deacons, ministers and elders in the body but not an “organization”. You limit the authority given to all believers.

This is a great psssage for election, predestination and prayer only through Jesus to the Father. Again all believers should exercise this it’s not limited to a select few.

 

[tweetymom]

So say you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Again, wonderful verses and wonderful thoughts. I don’t disagree with the face of this. It’s how this is applied that is in question here.

Dokimas,

Reading the context of Christ’s words is important. We can learn from all things He said, but we have to realize who He was speaking too. There were times He spoke only to His Apostles, those He chose and appointed. Below is another Gospel author’s writing showing the Lord teaching His Apostles they could have confidence in those things He taught them.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you shall know that I am in my Father: and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

 

[tweetymom]

There should be deacons, ministers and elders in the body but not an “organization”. You limit the authority given to all believers.

This is a great psssage for election, predestination and prayer only through Jesus to the Father. Again all believers should exercise this it’s not limited to a select few.

Amen brother we are all His Church not a building. And as believers it is open to us all not just a few,

 

[tweetymom]

Dokimas,

Reading the context of Christ’s words is important. We can learn from all things He said, but we have to realize who He was speaking too. There were times He spoke only to His Apostles, those He chose and appointed. Below is another Gospel author’s writing showing the Lord teaching His Apostles they could have confidence in those things He taught them.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world seeth me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you shall know that I am in my Father: and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words. And the word which you have heard is not mine; but the Father’s who sent me.
Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

All very good and great verses, know them by heart. But nowhere does it say these verses only for a select few they are for all of us who bekieve in Jesus as our S:thumbsup:avior.

 

[jericho777]

Jericho, I assume, we both believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. Why is it God inspired the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of the Bible? Why is it God inspired it be written that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church, instead of the Bible?

The 'body of believers, from the Protestant perspective, has divided the body of Christ into many denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines based on someone’s interpretation of scriptures, and all claiming the truth as guided by the Holy Spirit. Can multiple truths be the one truth Christ taught?

The church is the body of believers not an organization. Believers are called to go into all the world and make disciples of all men. We are to preach the good news found in the bible they will not know the word unless we bring it to them. The bible is truth.

All you can see is denominations not the work of Christ. Why do you have so many different religious orders? They sound like denominations to me.