Protestants: Tackle This

[TerryOB]

The bible is called the word of God therefore it is the authority. You don’t need any other explanition. Nothing else is equal to God or His word…

That statement displays a total misunderstanding of the issue.

The issue is not whether the Bible is the Word of God or if God is the ultimate authority: The issue is: Who has the final authority to INTERPRET that word and decide doctrine.

The protestant says it is up to the individual to interpret scripture: The protestant is WRONG.

The Catholic says what the Bible says: That Jesus chose MEN to TEACH, and those men later appoined successors to replace them.

This is why Catholicism is unified in doctrine, and protestantism has hundreds of snipping little denominations that teach conflicting and contradictory doctrine. The protestant model is the model for chaos and disunity

Case closed.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
Dokimas, surely you can see that Christ corrected traditions that came from a misinterpretation as compared to the traditions that the Apostles taught us to hold to, whether by word or epistle? Either one can see the difference or they are saying the Bible has contradictions in it. No contradictions at all in the Bible.

I agree, there are no contradictions. This means there were teachings about the traditions from the misinterpretations of men and there were traditions that we were taught to hold too. We have to read everything in context of who was being spoken too, when it was spoken and in light of other scriptures. The verse is in a passage, the passage is in a chapter, the chapter is in a book, the book is in a testament and the testament has to be read with the other testament. The Old foretells the New and the New fulfills the Old.

I am saying there have been misinterpretations for 2000 yrs. I believe when it’s all said and done, God and Him alone will have to sort it all out.

This is why I chose to follow the written word and the authority. Christ chose and appointed the 12. The 12 chose and appointed others. Some of the 12 wrote some of the New Testament, and some of those they taught wrote some of the New Testament. Surely, they were able to tell those they appointed, the interpretation of what they had written and that interpretation has been passed along with the Apostolic succession.

There have been misinterpretations over the 2000 years, those misinterpretations ran rampant in the last 500 years. This is evident by the numbers. Prior to the reformation, how many different interpretations were there, evident by the number of different Churches? Since the reformation, there have been thousands of denominations started and new ones coming out still.

God will sort it all out and I pray through God’s great economy, all can be worthy of the promises of Christ.

For some Catholics, we believe we have been exposed to His truth and we cannot depart from that truth without being held accountable. It’s like telling a chld, you know better!

The Catholic Church didn’t tell me what I had to believe, I chose what to believe, based on the scriptures I have provided, and many more. Some on this board have told Tweetymom that she can’t call herself a catholic because she does believe exactly what the CC teaches. She’s been told she can’t be a catholic.

I realize that, but are we all accountable for the actions of others? I have not said that once to tweetymom.

For me, I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. The Holy Spirit leads me to believe that. For tweetymom, I cannot say she’s not Catholic, as I feel it would be me judging her and that’s not for me or any other person to do. I can however, can disagree with tweetymom and continue posting my beliefs with the sources to support my view, and the view of the Church, and hope that the light shines through. As I pray that God reveals His truth, I never leave myself out of that prayer. We are human and I feel no one can know the fullness of His truth during our journey. We can always learn more and hopefully one day, He will reveal it all to us.

 

[jericho777]

That statement displays a total misunderstanding of the issue.

The issue is not whether the Bible is the Word of God or if God is the ultimate authority: The issue is: Who has the final authority to INTERPRET that word and decide doctrine.

The protestant says it is up to the individual to interpret scripture: The protestant is WRONG.

The Catholic says what the Bible says: That Jesus chose MEN to TEACH, and those men later appoined successors to replace them.

This is why Catholicism is unified in doctrine, and protestantism has hundreds of snipping little denominations that teach conflicting and contradictory doctrine. The protestant model is the model for chaos and disunity

Case closed.

Lk 12:12
John 14:26
1 John 2:27
John 16:13
Acts 11:14

All say the Spirit will teach.
I’m glad we are always so wrong.
Just because you maybe be large in number does not make you right. Remember God is always looking for a faithful remnent who will listen to his word and serve Him.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The bible is called the word of God therefore it is the authority. You don’t need any other explanition. Nothing else is equal to God or His word.

The Church is the Church Christ built…Christ was the second part of the Trinity, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, ONE God.

You answer is moot if it doesn’t show the authority written in the Bible. Surely the only authority would tell us it was the only authority. Where is that written in scriptures?

Why does scriptures tell us the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of scriptures?

Why does the scriptures tell us the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church, instead of scriptures?

Why does Christ say to take disputes to the Church, instead of scriptures?

The truth of God should be found in the church the body of believers. We worship God in Spirit and truth. You believe the church is an organization that is truth. I believe it should reflect God’s truth.

Evidently, you have not read or you ignore many posts on this subject. Is that an honest approach to truth? If you sincerely have truth, why are you taking the time to provide supporting scriptures and explanations to make us realize it’s the truth?

The Church is an organization, started by Christ Himself. The Church was started before the New Testament scriptures were written. Why did Christ choose that order?

 

[TerryOB]

…All say the Spirit will teach.
I’m glad we are always so wrong…

The spirit teaches… …THROUGH the teachers Christ appointed. And today, those teachers are the Pope and Bishops, who are the true successors of Peter and the Apostles

And yes, the fact that protestantism has hundreds of snipping little denominations that teach conflicting and contradictory doctrine while Catholicism is unified in doctrine is empirical evidence and proof that you are wrong.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the facts, that is your affair. I would suggest that you look around you and see how wrong you are.

 

[tweetymom]

The spirit teaches… …THROUGH the teachers Christ appointed. And today, those teachers are the Pope and Bishops, who are the true successors of Peter and the Apostles

And yes, the fact that protestantism has hundreds of snipping little denominations that teach conflicting and contradictory doctrine while Catholicism is unified in doctrine is empirical evidence and proof that you are wrong.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the facts, that is your affair. I would suggest that you look around you and see how wrong you are.

Or maybe how wrong and rude you are

 

[TerryOB]

Or maybe how wrong and rude you are

I am not wrong. I speak the truth. The truth only sounds rude to those who reject the truth

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Lk 12:12
John 14:26
1 John 2:27
John 16:13
Acts 11:14

All say the Spirit will teach.
I’m glad we are always so wrong.
Just because you maybe be large in number does not make you right. Remember God is always looking for a faithful remnent who will listen to his word and serve Him.

Below was spoken to the Apostles…

**Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say.

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. **

Who is trying to seduce who here? It changes just a bit when you add one verse. Do you believe the Holy Spirit tells different truths to different people? Are conflicting truths the truth?

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you: but as his unction teacheth you of all things and is truth and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.

Again below, Christ addresses the Apostles that He appointed the authority over His Church.

**Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you. **

Who shall SPEAK, not read.

Act 11:14 Who shall speak to thee words whereby thou shalt be saved, and all thy house.

Peter spoke, the authority Christ placed over His Church, and His flock.

**Act 11:15 And when I had begun to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as upon us also in the beginning.
Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said: John indeed baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. **

Joh 21:15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Context is everything.

Please provide the scriptures that teach us the Bible is the only authority and that we all should interpret it for ourselves?

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Dokimas]

Im not, so YOU lighten up

Now we’re getting childish, I see.

 

[larkin31]

I don’t see how you exempt the teachings of Catholic hierarchy (decisions, pronouncements, letters, bulls, etc) from the fallible “actions of its members”. Are you exempting the former from the latter? On what grounds are they SEPARATE? Decisions, teachings, interpretations are ALL actions: actions of human minds, which I would think are also fallible.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t see how you exempt the teachings of Catholic hierarchy (decisions, pronouncements, letters, bulls, etc) from the fallible “actions of its members”. Are you exempting the former from the latter? On what grounds are they SEPARATE? Decisions, teachings, interpretations are ALL actions: actions of human minds, which I would think are also fallible.

What writings do we have that are not written by fallible men?

As we believe God inspired His word to be written, we also believe Christ built a Church, with those He appointed and gave authority too. Just as God’s word was written by fallible men, the canon was defined by fallible men, the word was translated by fallible men, the word was preserved by fallible men, fallible men included the numbering system on chapters and verses, fallible men added the punctuation marks and fallible men interpret the scriptures. Does this take away from God’s written word to be truth? No and neither does fallible men being in authority over the Church Christ inspired/built. Why did God build a Church before having the New Testament written? Why didn’t Christ write scriptures Himself? Why didn’t Christ order scriptures scribed? Because He has confidence He can protect His truth, written or in His Church, even through fallible men.

 

[jericho777]

Below was spoken to the Apostles…

**Luk 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say.

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. **

Who is trying to seduce who here? It changes just a bit when you add one verse. Do you believe the Holy Spirit tells different truths to different people? Are conflicting truths the truth?

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written to you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 And as for you, let the unction, which you have received from him abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you: but as his unction teacheth you of all things and is truth and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.

Again below, Christ addresses the Apostles that He appointed the authority over His Church.

**Joh 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall shew you. **

Who shall SPEAK, not read.

Act 11:14 Who shall speak to thee words whereby thou shalt be saved, and all thy house.

Peter spoke, the authority Christ placed over His Church, and His flock.

**Act 11:15 And when I had begun to speak, the Holy Ghost fell upon them, as upon us also in the beginning.
Act 11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said: John indeed baptized with water but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. **

Joh 21:15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Context is everything.

Please provide the scriptures that teach us the Bible is the only authority and that we all should interpret it for ourselves?

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

The scriptures I quoted accurately that the Spirit teaches all believers. Jesus constantly used the authority of scripture in His ministry. He even used it to defeat the devil. He did not use man made traditions.

So you’re telling me no scripture can be accurately understood unless the CC tells us what they mean? I think someone is thinking we were born yesterday.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The scriptures I quoted accurately that the Spirit teaches all believers. Jesus constantly used the authority of scripture in His ministry. He even used it to defeat the devil. He did not use man made traditions.

So you’re telling me no scripture can be accurately understood unless the CC tells us what they mean? I think someone is thinking we were born yesterday.

Even the devil knew scriptures.

Christ corrected misinterpretations of scriptures.

**Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.**

As I’ve repeatedly stated, in this thread, scriptures are useful for all. Those things that were spoken only to the Apostles who Christ appointed authority over His Church, help us understand the teachings from the authority over His Church. With that stated, scriptures do not grant authority to whoever desires it for themselves.

**Eph 2:20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?**

There were instructions/teachings that Christ only spoke to the Apostles. Read the context of who was being spoken too.

Now for your last point, so condescendly worded, where does scriptures tell us to interpret them for ourselves?

**Nehemiah 8

1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

4And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

7Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.**

Here’s an example from the New Testament.

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Which denomination has not wrested the scriptures?

I’ll ask these questions again, even though you’ve ignored them to this point.

Where do scriptures tell us that scriptures are the only authority?

Why did God inspire it be written that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of scriptures?

Why did God inspire it be written that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church, instead of scriptures?

Why did Christ teach to take disputes to the Church, instead of scriptures?

 

[jericho777]

Even the devil knew scriptures.

Christ corrected misinterpretations of scriptures.

**Mat 22:29 And Jesus answering, said to them: You err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me.**

As I’ve repeatedly stated, in this thread, scriptures are useful for all. Those things that were spoken only to the Apostles who Christ appointed authority over His Church, help us understand the teachings from the authority over His Church. With that stated, scriptures do not grant authority to whoever desires it for themselves.

**Eph 2:20 Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors:

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church**; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?

There were instructions/teachings that Christ only spoke to the Apostles. Read the context of who was being spoken too.

Now for your last point, so condescendly worded, where does scriptures tell us to interpret them for ourselves?

**Nehemiah 8

1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

4And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

7Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.**

Here’s an example from the New Testament.

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

Which denomination has not wrested the scriptures?

I’ll ask these questions again, even though you’ve ignored them to this point.

Where do scriptures tell us that scriptures are the only authority?

Why did God inspire it be written that the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of scriptures?

Why did God inspire it be written that the manifold wisdom of God maybe made known through the Church, instead of scriptures?

Why did Christ teach to take disputes to the Church, instead of scriptures?

I thought I already had answered them.

Scripture is the authority Jesus used. It is His written word. That’s why He used it. No man or organization could ever make something that supersedes the word of God. They are all under the authority of scripture.

The church is the body of believers not an “organization” or a truth in of itself. It can only reflect the truth of Christ found in His word.

Again the body of believers are representatives of Christ on earth and are to go forth and share the gospel with all. Scriptures can’t walk or talk but the church is called to proclaim the word of God not anything else.

The church can not make a judgement apart from scripture. Acts 15:15-19 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16“‘After this I will return

and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will restore it,

17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who bear my name,

says the Lord, who does these things’

18that have been known for ages.

19“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God

Shows scripture was used to settle a great dispute.

Why are you using what is written in scripture as authority?

 

[Jean_1958]

The truth of God should be found in the church the body of believers. We worship God in Spirit and truth. You believe the church is an organization that is truth. I believe it should reflect God’s truth.

But what is truth? How do you know that the beliefs that you hold as a Christian are really true? As a Catholic, I know that the dogma of the CC is true because it comes directly from God under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I have seen Protestants comdemn other Protestants as non-Christian because they do not hold to the same beliefs. One time at my work, two non-denominational Christians got into a verbal shouting match with one another because they disagreed on how to interpret certain passages. Were both of them correct, one correct/one wrong, or were they both wrong? I have been to Baptist churches and Lutheran churches that have closed communion because they do not want people who don’t believe the same as they do to receive communion. Who is in the right or wrong?

You say “we worship God in Spirit and truth”. Whose truth do you use? How do you discern that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is correct over someone else’s?

 

[jericho777]

But what is truth? How do you know that the beliefs that you hold as a Christian are really true? As a Catholic, I know that the dogma of the CC is true because it comes directly from God under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I have seen Protestants comdemn other Protestants as non-Christian because they do not hold to the same beliefs. One time at my work, two non-denominational Christians got into a verbal shouting match with one another because they disagreed on how to interpret certain passages. Were both of them correct, one correct/one wrong, or were they both wrong? I have been to Baptist churches and Lutheran churches that have closed communion because they do not want people who don’t believe the same as they do to receive communion. Who is in the right or wrong?

You say “we worship God in Spirit and truth”. Whose truth do you use? How do you discern that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is correct over someone else’s?

You are putting your faith in man and his decrees. They are telling you it comes from God but you have to test what they say against the word of God. The word of God is not unknowable or requiring of special knowledge. Scripture used to interpret scripture goes a long way.

Catholics condemn other believers all the time here and give back handed comments suggesting they are some how inferior or some kind of stupid. There are Catholics who don’t believe the pope is even legitimate. Or that the CC is in grave error over Vatican II. Catholics don’t share communion with non Catholics either.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I thought I already had answered them.

Scripture is the authority Jesus used. It is His written word. That’s why He used it. No man or organization could ever make something that supersedes the word of God. They are all under the authority of scripture.

But if it’s not written in scriptures that scriptures are the only authority, it is a man made tradition. Where does Jesus say, “my word will be written?” Where does Christ say, “scriptures are the ONLY authority?”

Christ built a Church, before the New Testament was inspired to be written.

Now, you didn’t address any of the questions really. You provided no verse to support your belief that the Bible is the only authority. You did not answer any question where I asked why God inspired the Church was where truth is, instead of scriptures.

The church is the body of believers not an “organization” or a truth in of itself. It can only reflect the truth of Christ found in His word.

Whoever is giving you these answers, is not giving you any scriptural support for the view being espoused. Christ built a Church through men He appointed authority too. Christ gave those men the keys to the kingdom of heaven, the authority to bind and loose with a promise He would make it so in heaven, and He gave them the authority to forgive and retain sins.

Again the body of believers are representatives of Christ on earth and are to go forth and share the gospel with all. Scriptures can’t walk or talk but the church is called to proclaim the word of God not anything else.

We are called to a royal priesthood to share the Gospel. We do not have any ecumenical authority besides that. I have provided many scriptures showing how Apostolic succession was taught in the New Testament. Where is the verse and scripture that grants everyone authority? How can individuals bind and loose and it be so in heaven? How can individuals forgive and retain sins?

The church can not make a judgement apart from scripture. Acts 15:15-19 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16“‘After this I will return

and rebuild David’s fallen tent.

Its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will restore it,

17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,

and all the Gentiles who bear my name,

says the Lord, who does these things’

18that have been known for ages.

19“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God

Shows scripture was used to settle a great dispute.

Why are you using what is written in scripture as authority?

First, I’ll answer your last question. Catholics believe the Bible is an authority, but it’s not the only authority. Christ commissioned a Church and He commissioned it before the New Testament was written.

Would God have done any less than men in a similar situation? In the USA, men wrote a constitution. They did not send it out to everyone and say, ‘here, interpret it for yourselves.’ They appointed a legislative body to govern and interpret the constitution for us.

God appointed men (legislative body) and built a Church. Then God inspired His word to be written. We are not to interpret them ourselves. 2 Peter 3:15 demonstrates that.

Now, you bring up the council of Jerusalem to prove your point?

The hierarchy of the Church came together to consider the matter.

**Act 15:6 And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter. **

Peter rose up and spoke to them, and reminded them of his authority.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Then the Bishop of Jerusalem, James, used scriptures to support Peter’s decision. Which came first, the authority of the Church or the scriptures to support the authority?

Act 15:14 Simon hath related how God first visited to take to the Gentiles, a people to his name.
Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written:
Act 15:16 After these things I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down: and the ruins thereof I will rebuild. And I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all nations upon whom my name is invoked, saith the Lord, who doth these things.
Act 15:18 To the Lord was his own work known from the beginning of the world.

Then what did the Church do? They were pleased with the Church to choose men and send them to Antioch. Chief men among the brethren.

**Act 15:22 Then it pleased the apostles and ancients, with the whole church, to choose men of their own company and to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas, who was surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren.
Act 15:23 Writing by their hands: The apostles and ancients, brethren, to the brethren of the Gentiles that are at Antioch and in Syria and Cilicia, greeting.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that some going out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, to whom we gave no commandment:
Act 15:25 It hath seemed good to us, being assembled together, to choose out men and to send them unto you, with our well beloved Barnabas and Paul:
Act 15:26 Men that have given their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. **

Then what did the Church write?

Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also will, by word of mouth, tell you the same things.

This one verse shows that the men of the Church did not consider what they wrote as scriptures yet.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You are putting your faith in man and his decrees. They are telling you it comes from God but you have to test what they say against the word of God. The word of God is not unknowable or requiring of special knowledge. Scripture used to interpret scripture goes a long way.

I put my faith in Christ. He built a Church, before He inspired the New Testament written. As He built a Church, I have faith that He can keep His promises to be with the Church until the consummation of the world, and even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, much less sinful men.

I have provided many scriptures, where I weighed what men of the Church say against the scriptures. I have been doing this since I converted to Catholicism, from Protestantism, in 1985.

Again, since you bring up the interpretation of scriptures, please provide the scriptures that instruct all people to interpret them for themselves?

Catholics condemn other believers all the time here and give back handed comments suggesting they are some how inferior or some kind of stupid. There are Catholics who don’t believe the pope is even legitimate. Or that the CC is in grave error over Vatican II. Catholics don’t share communion with non Catholics either.

Now, it appears to be time to throw up a smoke screen of other objections since the discussion is getting too hard to dispute. Speaking of ‘back handed’ comments, please read back through our discussion alone and see how you have chosen to word your posts.

Show me how thousands of denominations are of the same mind and judgment?

Yes there are Catholics who don’t agree. There are Catholics that don’t understand their own faith. Yet, they remain Catholic. We are people who seek salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. We are not perfect in ourselves. Thank God, He gave us a perfect Church and His written word to learn how to be better.

You throw out some objections here and it’s not for me to prove, it’s for you to prove. Can’t you provide any resources to back up your claims?

 

[Dokimas]

I have provided many scriptures, where I weighed what men of the Church say against the scriptures. I have been doing this since I converted to Catholicism, from Protestantism, in 1985.

Again, since you bring up the interpretation of scriptures, please provide the scriptures that instruct all people to interpret them for themselves? ** It’s a fair question. Another fair question is is there a Scripture that says only the CC can correctly interpret Scripture and whenever it does it is 100% accurate?**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
I have provided many scriptures, where I weighed what men of the Church say against the scriptures. I have been doing this since I converted to Catholicism, from Protestantism, in 1985.

Again, since you bring up the interpretation of scriptures, please provide the scriptures that instruct all people to interpret them for themselves? It’s a fair question. Another fair question is is there a Scripture that says only the CC can correctly interpret Scripture and whenever it does it is 100% accurate?

Peter, the Apostle Christ appointed over His Church, tells us the dangers of interpretations of Pauls writings by the unlearned or unstable and he added, as they do other scriptures. 2 Peter 3:15 - 16.

Christ made many promises to the Apostles.

**Mat 28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. **

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever:
Joh 14:17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you.

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

I’ve used it before to demonstrate Christ’s confidence that the truth of God can be protected through sinful men, and I’m going to use it again.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

The was the Temple of the Old covenant. Christ knew what was going to happen to Him and He knew He would build a Church, of the new and everlasting covenant. He taught the people to listen to the authority, but do not as they do. This shows Christ’s confidence that God’s truth can be protected through His Church.

Private interpretation didn’t exist in the Old Testament and Christ didn’t say anything contrary to that with the new covenant.

**Nehemiah 8

1And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

2And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

3And he read therein before the street that was before the water gate from the morning until midday, before the men and the women, and those that could understand; and the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

4And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.

5And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people) and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

6And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.

7Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.

8So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.**

The Church was Christ’s authority. He is the head of His Church.

Col 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.

Is there anything He cannot do?

Secular history even records the fact that there was only one Church for 1500 years, until the time of the reformation. The sinful men have run amok, but the teachings prevailed…even the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.