Protestants: Tackle This

[Prodigal_Son1]

well, of course: What is infallible is infallible. True, as a definitional claim.

But I have not been asking that. I have been asking on what reasoning one can acknowledge that human actions and thoughts are subject to error (infallible) while at the same time maintain that the process of assembling and running a world-wide church organization and writing and assembling a set of scriptures (often via counsel) and establishing dogma and doctrine is infallible. Are you claiming that God does not permit any errors in the workings of these humans over thousands of years, from the time of Peter (fallible) to the present (still fallible)?

Reasoning? By faith in Christ and his promises and power to accomplish all things. Otherwise we are limiting His power to think He cannot protect His truth through a worldwide Church, through all times. When it comes to His truth, in faith and morals, God has protected those who receive His truth, even through fallible men.

Maybe you’re confusing this. In matters of faith and morals, men of the Church cannot teach a fallible teaching. Does this mean these men cannot sin or make mistakes? No they can, just not in teaching His truth.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

 

[Dokimas]

Actually, you are saying that Sacred Tradition is on the level of The Bible even though there seems to be some contradiction between the two over some teachings.​

God is able to use fallible people and because of the Holy Spirit, infallibility results. Mary is a great example, IMO.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You mentioned semantics… My point is it’s not so unless the CC declares it so, even when it’s in scripture.

When people wrote the bible they had no knowledge they were writing scripture. It is God who preserves His word in spite of men.

The eunuch had no cultural references to know who Jesus or anyone else Jewish was.

The CC gives itself its own authority by miss interpreting scriptures.

Like I said we use scripture as the final authority and measuring stick for faith not man made religion.

Men of the Church wrote the scriptures.

Men of the Church understood what they wrote and taught their successors the interpretation and it was passed on through the succession until present day. The Church has the authority to declare it so.

Men of the Church had no knowledge they were writing scriptures? Men of the Church wrote what they spoke. They spoke what was inspired by the Holy Ghost. People attempt to interpret scriptures on their own, which is unlearned, and they risk wresting Paul’s writings, as they do OTHER scriptures.

2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

The Catholic Church is not misinterpreting scriptures. Christ gave the Church, through men He appointed, authority. No Protestant has given a satisfactory answer to the following questions.

How is the authority to bind and loose applied to all individuals?

How do individuals have the authority to forgive and retain sins?

I have given a lengthy explanation of the keys to the kingdom of heaven, which was demonstrated in the Old Testament. The typology is strikingly the same. All individuals do not have the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

You have to read in the context of how those men thought, what they knew culturally, when things were spoken to them. You cannot read it with a modern mindset.

Christ made Christianity and He built a Church. It is not a man made religion. Could man improve on what Christ built and started?

Again, you say the Bible is the final authority and the measuring stick, but you don’t address the difficulties of thousands of denominations, with different doctrines, based on someone’s interpretation and all claiming Holy Spirit guidance. You also fail to produce any scriptures stating that scriptures are the final authority, or instructing us to interpret scriptures for ourselves. If it’s not in the ‘final authority’, it’s a man-made tradition.

 

[larkin31]

Reasoning? By faith in Christ and his promises and power to accomplish all things. Otherwise we are limiting His power to think He cannot protect His truth through a worldwide Church, through all times. When it comes to His truth, in faith and morals, God has protected those who receive His truth, even through fallible men.

Maybe you’re confusing this. In matters of faith and morals, men of the Church cannot teach a fallible teaching. Does this mean these men cannot sin or make mistakes? No they can, just not in teaching His truth.

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Does this infallibility apply to ALL church teachings and actions?

 

[Dokimas]

Are you sure you are agreeing with my statement? I was meaning that Mary is a good example of God using a fallible servant with infallible outcome (Jesus).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I’m confused: how does this answer my question? The presence of fallible men as leaders of the church (universal not Catholic) doesn’t mean that God can’t or doesn’t use them and do some ‘mighty’ works through them in spite of their fallibility.

Good morning Dokimas,

The reason it cannot be applied to ‘universal’ as opposed to Catholic is the differences in truth being taught. I have provided many scriptures showing we are to be of the same mind and judgment; of the same accord. If you remove the Catholic Church, Protestants cannot claim they are of the same mind and judgement. There are thousands of denominations, with slight to great differences in doctrines.

Now, with that said, God can use whoever He wants to accomplish His will. The biggest thing in favor of this thought is Luke 9:49 - 50.

Luk 9:49 And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you.

This small teaching, gives me hope that God can grant His salvation to those outside the Church.

In my search for God’s truth, I prayed for knowledge and wisdom. I feel the Holy Spirit answered my prayer. With that God given knowledge, I cannot reject anything made known to me, or I reject Him. All of us have different levels of knowledge and hopefully, that’s what we will be judged on and hopefully all are made worthy of the promises of Christ. I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, as we all should.

As you know, I am a convert and I’m faithful to the Church. I make sure to meet my obligation to attend Mass everyweek, but on occasion I will also attend Protestant services with family, who are not Catholics, where we can worship God together. Catholics and Protestants worship the one true God. I know my family has made it known to their pastor that I am a Catholic and so far, I have not seen any anti-Catholic rhetoric through the pastor’s message and I do not try to correct anyone on anything. The pastor has not made any attempts to evangelize me, even though he’s invited me back.

When an opportunity to discuss theology comes up, I state my beliefs and will hold to them, discerning anything that is spoken to me. As I think I’ve gotten across in this thread, no one has provided me with satisfactory responses to make me consider changing. I was raised Protestant and converted when I was 30 years old. That was 25 years ago.

We all have Jesus in common. The other things are to be worked out by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Does this infallibility apply to ALL church teachings and actions?

To all doctrines/dogma of the Catholic faith.

The easiest way to approach this is for you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s not expensive in book form and it’s free online. I have provided the link in this post. That states the Catholic faith, better than anyone can explain it here more than likely.

 

[jericho777]

Men of the Church wrote the scriptures.

Men of the Church understood what they wrote and taught their successors the interpretation and it was passed on through the succession until present day. The Church has the authority to declare it so.

Men of the Church had no knowledge they were writing scriptures? Men of the Church wrote what they spoke. They spoke what was inspired by the Holy Ghost. People attempt to interpret scriptures on their own, which is unlearned, and they risk wresting Paul’s writings, as they do OTHER scriptures.

2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

The Catholic Church is not misinterpreting scriptures. Christ gave the Church, through men He appointed, authority. No Protestant has given a satisfactory answer to the following questions.

How is the authority to bind and loose applied to all individuals?

How do individuals have the authority to forgive and retain sins?

I have given a lengthy explanation of the keys to the kingdom of heaven, which was demonstrated in the Old Testament. The typology is strikingly the same. All individuals do not have the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

You have to read in the context of how those men thought, what they knew culturally, when things were spoken to them. You cannot read it with a modern mindset.

Christ made Christianity and He built a Church. It is not a man made religion. Could man improve on what Christ built and started?

Again, you say the Bible is the final authority and the measuring stick, but you don’t address the difficulties of thousands of denominations, with different doctrines, based on someone’s interpretation and all claiming Holy Spirit guidance. You also fail to produce any scriptures stating that scriptures are the final authority, or instructing us to interpret scriptures for ourselves. If it’s not in the ‘final authority’, it’s a man-made tradition.

You told me the Trinity was self evident in scripture. Did the CC tell you this? Like I said I was told on another thread it was the CC who declared the Trinity because it was not self evident. You have demonstrated to me that you think the Trinity is self evident therefore no outside interpretation was needed. Am I correct?

Both OT and NT are scriptures were authored by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Not an organization.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You told me the Trinity was self evident in scripture. Did the CC tell you this? Like I said I was told on another thread it was the CC who declared the Trinity because it was not self evident. You have demonstrated to me that you think the Trinity is self evident therefore no outside interpretation was needed. Am I correct?

Common sense confirms the teaching of the Church on the Trinity.

Both OT and NT are scriptures were authored by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Agreed.

2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

How many examples of having scriptures explained in scriptures is necessary for you?

Now, do you think you can respond to a question repeatedly asked of you, specifically where does scriptures state it is the ONLY authority?

Where does, by implication or direct teaching, does the scriptures state every individual is to interpret scrptures for themselves?

Failure to respond to questions put forth to you, takes away from the honesty of the discussion and has appearances of someone promoting an agenda.

 

[jericho777]

Common sense confirms the teaching of the Church on the Trinity.

Agreed.

2Pe 1:20 Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

Now, do you think you can respond to a question repeatedly asked of you, specifically where does scriptures state it is the ONLY authority?

Where does, by implication or direct teaching, does the scriptures state every individual is to interpret scrptures for themselves?

Failure to respond to questions put forth to you, take away from the honesty of the discussion and has appearances of someone promoting an agenda.

I agree the Trinity and all other doctrines can be understood by common sense.

A plain and simple reading of scripture is not a private interpretation. A private interpretation means you are saying that scripture is not plainly saying.

It is implied by being defined by God as His word, it has total authority. How can anyone have authority over God or His word?

You were able to deduce from the plain reading of scripture the Trinity. I would add Jesus is God , we are all sinners. I think you get the idea. Like I have said before a plain and simple reading of scripture will reveal all that is necessary for salvation.

I don’t know how more clear I can be to answer your questions.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I agree the Trinity and all other doctrines can be understood by common sense.

A plain and simple reading of scripture is not a private interpretation. A private interpretation means you are saying that scripture is not plainly saying.

It is implied by being defined by God as His word, it has total authority. How can anyone have authority over God or His word?

You were able to deduce from the plain reading of scripture the Trinity. I would add Jesus is God , we are all sinners. I think you get the idea. Like I have said before a plain and simple reading of scripture will reveal all that is necessary for salvation.

I don’t know how more clear I can be to answer your questions.

Christ gave the authority to the men He appointed over His Church. Seems your beef is not with the Church…

Ok, you said the eunuch didn’t know God, therefore he could not understand the scriptures. Here’s another example, of two who clearly knew God through Jesus, but once again had to have scriptures explained to them, by the Authority and still they could not see, until the Authority revealed. They knew the scriptures…

Luk 24:13 And behold, two of them went, the same day, to a town which was sixty furlongs from Jerusalem, named Emmaus.
Luk 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
Luk 24:15 And it came to pass that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also, drawing near, went with them.
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were held, that they should not know him.
Luk 24:17 And he said to them: What are these discourses that you hold one with another as you walk and are sad?
Luk 24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleophas, answering, said to him: Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things that have been done there in these days?
Luk 24:19 To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people.
Luk 24:20 And how our chief priests and princes delivered him to be condemned to death and crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he that should have redeemed Israel. And now besides all this, to-day is the third day since these things were done.
Luk 24:22 Yea and certain women also of our company affrighted us who, before it was light, were at the sepulchre,
Luk 24:23 And not finding his body, came, saying that they had all seen a vision of angels, who say that he is alive.
Luk 24:24 And some of our people went to the sepulchre and found it so as the women had said: but him they found not.
Luk 24:25 Then he said to them: O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all things, Which the prophets have spoken.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things and so, to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures?
Luk 24:33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were with them,
Luk 24:34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way: and how they knew him in the breaking of bread.

Still no response to the questions I asked you, I see. Why is it so hard to say their not in scriptures or produce the scriptures that teach us to interpret scripture individually and that the scriptures are the ONLY authority? Clearly scriptures was not the only authority in the passage above…

 

[larkin31]

To all doctrines/dogma of the Catholic faith.

The easiest way to approach this is for you to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s not expensive in book form and it’s free online. I have provided the link in this post. That states the Catholic faith, better than anyone can explain it here more than likely.

I just read the sections on scripture and its writings. I am fairly familiar with these claims. I have been asking more for a resolution of the paradoxes. I am beginning to see that only faith resolves the contradictions (or at least in this conversation).

I will drop the question.

 

[jericho777]

Christ gave the authority to the men He appointed over His Church. Seems your beef is not with the Church…

Ok, you said the eunuch didn’t know God, therefore he could not understand the scriptures. Here’s another example, of two who clearly knew God through Jesus, but once again had to have scriptures explained to them, by the Authority and still they could not see, until the Authority revealed. They knew the scriptures…

Luk 24:13 And behold, two of them went, the same day, to a town which was sixty furlongs from Jerusalem, named Emmaus.
Luk 24:14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
Luk 24:15 And it came to pass that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also, drawing near, went with them.
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were held, that they should not know him.
Luk 24:17 And he said to them: What are these discourses that you hold one with another as you walk and are sad?
Luk 24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleophas, answering, said to him: Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things that have been done there in these days?
Luk 24:19 To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people.
Luk 24:20 And how our chief priests and princes delivered him to be condemned to death and crucified him.
Luk 24:21 But we hoped that it was he that should have redeemed Israel. And now besides all this, to-day is the third day since these things were done.
Luk 24:22 Yea and certain women also of our company affrighted us who, before it was light, were at the sepulchre,
Luk 24:23 And not finding his body, came, saying that they had all seen a vision of angels, who say that he is alive.
Luk 24:24 And some of our people went to the sepulchre and found it so as the women had said: but him they found not.
Luk 24:25 Then he said to them: O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all things, Which the prophets have spoken.
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things and so, to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things that were concerning him.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh to the town whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther.
Luk 24:29 But they constrained him, saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them.
Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread and blessed and brake and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened: and they knew him. And he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures?
Luk 24:33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were with them,
Luk 24:34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed and hath appeared to Simon.
Luk 24:35 And they told what things were done in the way: and how they knew him in the breaking of bread.

Still no response to the questions I asked you, I see. Why is it so hard to say their not in scriptures or produce the scriptures that teach us to interpret scripture individually and that the scriptures are the ONLY authority? Clearly scriptures was not the only authority in the passage above…

Christ gave authority to the apostles and all believers to do His will.

This is Jesus encouraging two of His own disciples. He is reminding them with scripture who He was. These were not two strangers to Jesus as you say.

Why can’t you accept that scripture is the WORD of GOD. That in of itself IS AUTHORITY. You can follow man all you want I will follow God’s word.

It seems you are doing a fair amount of self interpretating. Have these scripture references been approved by the CC. Is that what they say they mean or did you interprate them yourself?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Christ gave authority to the apostles and all believers to do His will.

Christ gave authority to the Apostles and commanded all believers to do His will. I’m open to correction if you want to provide scriptures for discussion.

This is Jesus encouraging two of His own disciples. He is reminding them with scripture who He was. These were not two strangers to Jesus as you say.

Unlike the authors of scriptures, I can correct a misinterpretation of what I said or didn’t say. I did not say they were two ‘strangers’ to Jesus. I said, “Here’s another example, of two who clearly knew God through Jesus, but once again had to have scriptures explained to them, by the Authority and still they could not see, until the Authority revealed.”

They said:

Luk 24:32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures?

Why can’t you accept that scripture is the WORD of GOD. That in of itself IS AUTHORITY. You can follow man all you want I will follow God’s word.

I follow Christ.

Again, I will correct what you represent as what I believe. I believe Christ built a Church and commissioned the men He appointed with authority. I also believe God inspired His word be written in the New Testament, He had already inspired the Old. Both are authorities and it was in that order that the two things happened; first the Church, then the New Testament. If you want to rely on the Old Testament for validation, please read Nehemiah 8 and see the example of authority explaining the scriptures to the people and causing them to understand.

Now, instead of the ‘smug’ or ‘sly’ remarks, tell me, it is in scriptures that scriptures are the ONLY authority and that we should interpret scriptures for ourselves? If it’s not, it’s clearly a man made tradition without Biblical support.

For someone who claims the Bible is the ONLY authority, I am amazed at the lack of scriptures used to support your view.

 

[jericho777]

Christ gave authority to the Apostles and commanded all believers to do His will. I’m open to correction if you want to provide scriptures for discussion.

John 20:19-23 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” (Thomas was not present and there were more than the 10 apostles there were disciples also given the power to go forth and also forgive sins)

Here the Holy Spirit authority is empowering all believers to serve the body.

1 Chor 12:4-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines

1 Chor 12: 27-31 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tonguesd? Do all interpret? 31But eagerly desiree the greater gifts.

1 Chor 14:12 So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church.

Unlike the authors of scriptures, I can correct a misinterpretation of what I said or didn’t say. I did not say they were two ‘strangers’ to Jesus. I said, “Here’s another example, of two who clearly knew God through Jesus, but once again had to have scriptures explained to them, by the Authority and still they could not see, until the Authority revealed.”

They said:

Luk 24:32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in the way and opened to us the scriptures?

These men were not ignorant of scripture they needed to be reminded of it.

I follow Christ.

Again, I will correct what you represent as what I believe. I believe Christ built a Church and commissioned the men He appointed with authority. I also believe God inspired His word be written in the New Testament, He had already inspired the Old. Both are authorities and it was in that order that the two things happened; first the Church, then the New Testament. If you want to rely on the Old Testament for validation, please read Nehemiah 8 and see the example of authority explaining the scriptures to the people and causing them to understand.

Now, instead of the ‘smug’ or ‘sly’ remarks, tell me, it is in scriptures that scriptures are the ONLY authority and that we should interpret scriptures for ourselves? If it’s not, it’s clearly a man made tradition without Biblical support.

For someone who claims the Bible is the ONLY authority, I am amazed at the lack of scriptures used to support your view.

I don’t have a whole clipboard ready to cut and paste.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

John 20:19-23 (Thomas was not present and there were more than the 10 apostles there were disciples also given the power to go forth and also forgive sins)

Here the Holy Spirit authority is empowering all believers to serve the body.

How many times are the Apostles referred too as ‘disciples’ in the New Testament?

Mat 10:1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.

**Joh 20:2 She ran therefore and cometh to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved and saith to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre: and we know not where they have laid him. **

Joh 20:10 The disciples therefore departed again to their home.

Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

These were His disciples, His Apostles, which He had commissioned and annointed, those He had given authority over His Church too. This was not a multitude. How big a home do you think they had?

Tell me, how can each and every individual have the authority to forgive or retain sins? Before answering, please be reminded of how He taught the multitudes to pray.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

He taught the multitudes nothing about being allowed to retain sins.

1 Chor 12:4-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

I have posted this passage to you before. Who set some in the Church? God indeed hath set some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets…

Paul was clarifying the authority to these people. First he told them about the gifts, then he told them, “…God indeed hath set some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors…”, and down the list of the hierarchy, from the top down. But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way. Read the rest of the letter to the Corinthians for specifics of a better way and show me where any could set themselves as Apostles.

Paul spoke of people having authority in other scriptures, and he mentions how they received the authority within the Church.

**1Ti 3:1 A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.

1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner: chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre:

1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

1Ti 5:22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins. Keep thyself chaste.

Act 14:23 (14:22) And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.

2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.

Tit 1:5 For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:**

These men were not ignorant of scripture they needed to be reminded of it.

They knew the scriptures by heart, but Christ the Authority had to open the scriptures to them.

 

[tweetymom]

How many times are the Apostles referred too as ‘disciples’ in the New Testament?

Mat 10:1 And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities.

Joh 20:2 She ran therefore and cometh to Simon Peter and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved and saith to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre: and we know not where they have laid him.

Joh 20:10 The disciples therefore departed again to their home.

Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

These were His disciples, His Apostles, which He had commissioned and annointed, those He had given authority over His Church too. This was not a multitude. How big a home do you think they had?

Tell me, how can each and every individual have the authority to forgive or retain sins? Before answering, please be reminded of how He taught the multitudes to pray.

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

He taught the multitudes nothing about being allowed to retain sins.

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

I have posted this passage to you before. Who set some in the Church? God indeed hath set some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets…

Paul was clarifying the authority to these people. First he told them about the gifts, then he told them, “…God indeed hath set some in the Church, first Apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors…”, and down the list of the hierarchy, from the top down. But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way. Read the rest of the letter to the Corinthians for specifics of a better way and show me where any could set themselves as Apostles.

Paul spoke of people having authority in other scriptures, and he mentions how they received the authority within the Church.

**1Ti 3:1 A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.

1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner: chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre:

1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.

1Ti 5:22 Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins. Keep thyself chaste.

Act 14:23 (14:22) And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.

2Ti 2:2 And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.

Tit 1:5 For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee:**

They knew the scriptures by heart, but Christ the Authority had to open the scriptures to them.

The Holy Spirit opened them up for me.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

jericho777,

Nothing on the scriptures stating that scriptures are the only authority or that people should interpret them for themselves?

Let me help you out abit and show you what it does say about scriptures.

**2Ti 3:16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work.

(IGNT+) πασαG3956 EVERY γραφηG1124 SCRIPTURE “IS” θεοπνευστοςG2315 GOD INSPIRED καιG2532 AND ωφελιμοςG5624 PROFITABLE προςG4314 FOR διδασκαλιανG1319 TEACHING, προςG4314 FOR ελεγχονG1650 CONVICTION, προςG4314 FOR επανορθωσινG1882 CORRECTION, προςG4314 FOR παιδειανG3809 DISCIPLINE τηνG3588 WHICH “IS” ενG1722 IN δικαιοσυνηG1343 RIGHTEOUSNESS;

G5624
ὠφέλιμος
ōphelimos
o-fel’-ee-mos
From a form of G3786; helpful or serviceable, that is, advantageous: - profit (-able).**

Scriptures are profitable/useful/helpful to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice. Profitable, useful, helpful or serviceable are all short of ‘complete’, or all that is necessary.

Another point, they are useful for ‘teaching’, that’s because the scriptures cannot teach themselves, or interpret themselves for individuals. More is needed and just anyone cannot teach. Teaching comes from an authority. Why are there thousands of denominations, with different teachings? It appears the unlearned, unwise or unstable, have been teaching.

2Pe 3:15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.

At the time that Paul wrote 2 Timothy, he was speaking of the Old Testament, as the New Testament didn’t exist, at least as a complete book. But, I’m not taking away that the verse should include all books of the Bible, as the canon was defined by the Church.

I’ve done another search in an attempt to help you find anything else, and it’s just not there. So, I have to conclude that scriptures are not the ONLY authority and we’re not supposed to interpret them for ourselves, and that these beliefs are ‘man-made’ beliefs that are not Biblical.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The Holy Spirit opened them up for me.

He opened them up to His Church over 2000 years ago…

 

[jericho777]

Jesus normally calls the apostles by number “the twelve“. The context is clear and is talking about more than the 10 present. Jesus had many disciples. Apostles can be disciples but disciples aren’t apostles. The multitudes were not His disciples and were outside the kingdom.

John 6:60-71 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirite and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

John 19:38 Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate’s permission, he came and took the body away.

The Holy Spirit administers the gifts to believers for the church it’s not the church who gives the gifts.

Don’t you think that maybe they were not thinking to clearly because of what had just happened? They just needed a reminder.