Protestants, take a dare

[rinnie]

If you can try this for me, and please be honest with me when you do. Go rent, or re-rent the Passion of Jesus Christ.

Now all I ask is this, concentrate of the Blessed Mother this time. Just this once. I swear to you there is a good reason for this.

When that movie came out I had like 20 women, (now they were all women, I do not know for what reason) But this is what they said to me.

I never could see how Catholic’s could relate so close to the Blessed Mother until I had a child and saw that movie.

I will probally not get a response to this, but if I do, promise me one thing, your response will be directly after you see that movie!

Thanks.

 

[Publisher]

I own the movie…it was one of the best movies Mel Gibson did. It is however a movie. The cinematic portrayal of Mary by Gibson was based on an obscure woman’s vision as I remember…and it was a moving portrayal…Gibson was/is Catholic…so of course his portrayal of Mary would reflect that…wouldn’t it?

 

[humble_maid]

When I think of Our Blessed Mother I think of these scriptures found in Luke 2 in which The holy Simeon confesses in seeing the Son of the Most High and continues on to bless Him and makes a revelation to Our Mother.

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall and for the resurrection of many in Israel and for a sign which shall be contradicted. 35 And your own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts thoughts may be revealed

The Lord’s suffering will also be His Mother’s suffering; in this instance and always thereafter they are of one sacred heart.

God Bless.

 

[BrianH]

=rinnie;6333237]If you can try this for me, and please be honest with me when you do. Go rent, or re-rent the Passion of Jesus Christ.

No we are going to lie to you. What an awful way to begin a post

Now all I ask is this, concentrate of the Blessed Mother this time. Just this once. I swear to you there is a good reason for this.

I have seen it four times. Do you think we do not understand when the director focuses on key scenes with Mary unless someone TELLS us to???

It is a wonderful movie and the scenes involving Mary are very touching indeed.

 

[humble_maid]

It seems odd to me that protestants will not see St. Mary for who she is. I have purposely provided a scripture explicitly attesting to the nature of Her that is the Mother of Our Lord. She is one in His Heart and it can be further explained but I would gather that the two sole protestants who answered so far would not be able or willing to accept any further interpretation especially since it comes from a catholic source.

Open your minds and let go of your pride maybe then you can come to respect Our Mother just as Jesus respects her.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you

 

[NDfan]

If you can try this for me, and please be honest with me when you do. Go rent, or re-rent the Passion of Jesus Christ.

Now all I ask is this, concentrate of the Blessed Mother this time. Just this once. I swear to you there is a good reason for this.

When that movie came out I had like 20 women, (now they were all women, I do not know for what reason) But this is what they said to me.

I never could see how Catholic’s could relate so close to the Blessed Mother until I had a child and saw that movie.

I will probally not get a response to this, but if I do, promise me one thing, your response will be directly after you see that movie!

Thanks.

I’ve seen it at least 10 times. I’m not sure of your point Rinnie

 

[schaick]

It seems odd to me that protestants will not see St. Mary for who she is. I have purposely provided a scripture explicitly attesting to the nature of Her that is the Mother of Our Lord. She is one in His Heart and it can be further explained but I would gather that the two sole protestants who answered so far would not be able or willing to accept any further interpretation especially since it comes from a catholic source.

Open your minds and let go of your pride maybe then you can come to respect Our Mother just as Jesus respects her.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you

No pride involved. I try to respect my mother just as Jesus respected his.

Mary is the best example of an obedient wonderful and amazing servant of GOD. The mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

My salvation does not depend on me believing that Mary was anything more then what is stated in Scripture.

 

[BrianH]

It seems odd to me that protestants will not see St. Mary for who she is. I have purposely provided a scripture explicitly attesting to the nature of Her that is the Mother of Our Lord. She is one in His Heart and it can be further explained but I would gather that the two sole protestants who answered so far would not be able or willing to accept any further interpretation especially since it comes from a catholic source.

Open your minds and let go of your pride maybe then you can come to respect Our Mother just as Jesus respects her.

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you

Once again, Catholics think that we do not agree because of pride and not being honest. I think it is common to impugn the motives of people who disagree; far too common. Remember, we are replying to a thread that is specially addressed to us. No one, so far, has been disrespectful, but nevertheless we are prideful or not honest.

 

[humble_maid]

No pride involved. I try to respect my mother just as Jesus respected his.

Mary is the best example of an obedient wonderful and amazing servant of GOD. The mother of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

My salvation does not depend on me believing that Mary was anything more then what is stated in Scripture.

I gather you are not Catholic and you have misinterpreted my meaning. I thank you nonetheless for respecting the Holy Mother of Jesus.

The CC stance on Mary is so misconstrued by many non-catholics especially by some protestant churches. We too, Schaick, do not believe that our salvation depends on believing Mother Mary as anything but a perfect creature of God who has a special purpose. She guides us to Her Son but she is not ‘Our Salvation’; she is part of the plan. She is the ‘New Eve’ and the Mother of all the human race. This can easily be supported by scripture but this is not the topic of the OP. I believe the issue is being brought up by the OP is that she has a great relevance in bringing believers to Her Son; that she is not merely a surrogate for God’s Incarnate Word.

 

[BrianH]

But IF I were to say something against the historicity of the Assumption of Mary
this is what happens to me

1. It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

 

[humble_maid]

Once again, Catholics think that we do not agree because of pride and not being honest. I think it is common to impugn the motives of people who disagree; far too common. Remember, we are replying to a thread that is specially addressed to us. No one, so far, has been disrespectful, but nevertheless we are prideful or not honest.

Would you not call it pride when you deny the Mother of Jesus and merely think of her as a simple, good woman who was obedient? Even I can say that I do as much but I would never be Blessed and **Full of Grace **nor would a great angel of God salute me with the title of ‘Hail’ as it is written in the Sacred Bible. I suppose you could simply overlook all the scriptural evidence and interpret as you wish but to me this is called Pride.

Please, understand that I have no intentions of supposing that We Catholics are any better than yourself just because we believe in something you don’t; but the scriptures speak for themselves. God Bless

 

[BrianH]

Would you not call it pride when you deny the Mother of Jesus and merely think of her as a simple, good woman who was obedient? Even I can say that I do as much but I would never be Blessed and **Full of Grace **nor would a great angel of God salute me with the title of ‘Hail’ as it is written in the Sacred Bible. I suppose you could simply overlook all the scriptural evidence and interpret as you wish but to me this is called Pride.

Please, understand that I have no intentions of supposing that We Catholics are any better than yourself just because we believe in something you don’t; but the scriptures speak for themselves. God Bless

I guess there is nothing I can add. You have stated your view. As far as me being good, I would never say that. My righteousness is filthy rags to God. I find that perspective different from scripture. Even Christ buckled when they called him good…did he not…?
In the end, perhaps he will say well done they good and faithful servant…but until then none are good, no not one (Psalms)

 

[humble_maid]

But IF I were to say something against the historicity of the Assumption of Mary
this is what happens to me

Please elaborate. I believe you are referring to the Sacred Tradition of the Church. Certain beliefs are not mentioned in the bible; this does not negate what has been handed down by oral tradition from the apostles themselves. Not everything can be written in the bible. It is only common sense that we understand this. If you would believe this to be untrue then we would not have a bible because it would continually have to be compiled with new writings. God’s Holy Spirit speaks to us continuosly and not everything revealed can be written down in a book, for God is Infinite.

Forgive me but I cannot find the scriptural quote that mentions that there is no book in the world that can contain all the happenings and truth about God. However I have provided the scripture below that reflects what I am saying.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you. 14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall show it to you.

God Bless

 

[Della]

I guess there is nothing I can add. You have stated your view. As far as me being good, I would never say that. My righteousness is filthy rags to God. I find that perspective different from scripture. Even Christ buckled when they called him good…did he not…?
In the end, perhaps he will say well done they good and faithful servant…but until then none are good, no not one (Psalms)

Well, I wouldn’t say that Christ “buckled” rather he demurred, quite another thing. And I think he did in order to make a point, not to deny his own perfection. After all, what else could the Son of God be than perfect?

As to the “filthy rags” thing, yes, we are sinners. No doubt about that. We inherited the wound of Adam’s sin. No doubt about that, either. But, if we are going to say that everyone born since Adam must be a sinner, then we have to call Jesus a sinner, too.

At one time I had a hard time understanding the Catholic teaching about Mary’s sinlessness until I realized that God could redeem her through the merits of her Son at the moment of her conception. Why? Because he saw fit to do so. This is all about Jesus really, not Mary. Mary was made fit to conceive (not just carry Christ in her womb but truly conceive him in her womb) because it was fitting that Jesus not be tainted in any way. When we rejoice over this, we aren’t so much rejoicing that Mary was spared what we were not, but that Jesus was so perfect in every way and so the perfect Second Adam. It’s really all about Jesus–it always has been and always will be in the mind of the Church.

 

[BrianH]

Please elaborate. I believe you are referring to the Sacred Tradition of the Church. Certain beliefs are not mentioned in the bible; this does not negate what has been handed down by oral tradition from the apostles themselves. Not everything can be written in the bible. It is only common sense that we understand this. If you would believe this to be untrue then we would not have a bible because it would continually have to be compiled with new writings. God’s Holy Spirit speaks to us continuosly and not everything revealed can be written down in a book, for God is Infinite.

Forgive me but I cannot find the scriptural quote that mentions that there is no book in the world that can contain all the happenings and truth about God. However I have provided the scripture below that reflects what I am saying.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you. 14 He shall glorify me: because he shall receive of mine and shall show it to you.

God Bless

I am not Sola Scriptura as you can tell by looking at my church. The reason I question the historicity of the Assumption of Mary is actually simple. The first three hundred years after the resurrection no one writes about it. The first person to really address what happened to Mary was a Bishop and a prolific author. He was a staunch defender in her perpetual virginity. Epiphanius writes this about what happened to Mary at the end of her life.

Quote:
11,3 11,5 I cannot decide for certain, and am not saying that she remained immortal. But neither am I affirming that she died. For scripture went beyond man’s understanding and left it in suspense with regard to the precious and chosen vessel, so that no one would suspect carnal behavior of her. Whether she died, I don’t know; and even if she was buried, she never had carnal relations, perish the thought.

78: 23,8 The holy virgin may have died and been buried-her falling asleep was with honor, her death in purity, her crown in virginity. Or she may have been put to death-as the scripture says, “and a sword shall pierce through her soul-her frame is among the martyrs and her holy body, by which light rose on the world, rests amid blessings. Or she may have remained alive, for God is not incapable of doing whatever he wills. No one knows her end.

The most staunch defender of Mary AND Bishop did not know if she died and was buried, martyred, or assumed. He clearly states no one knows.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis
I do not want to detract but if he did not know, how can I know?

 

[BrianH]

Well, I wouldn’t say that Christ “buckled” rather he demurred, quite another thing. And I think he did in order to make a point, not to deny his own perfection. After all, what else could the Son of God be than perfect?

As to the “filthy rags” thing, yes, we are sinners. No doubt about that. We inherited the wound of Adam’s sin. No doubt about that, either. But, if we are going to say that everyone born since Adam must be a sinner, then we have to call Jesus a sinner, too.

At one time I had a hard time understanding the Catholic teaching about Mary’s sinlessness until I realized that God could redeem her through the merits of her Son at the moment of her conception. Why? Because he saw fit to do so. This is all about Jesus really, not Mary. Mary was made fit to conceive (not just carry Christ in her womb but truly conceive him in her womb) because it was fitting that Jesus not be tainted in any way. When we rejoice over this, we aren’t so much rejoicing that Mary was spared what we were not, but that Jesus was so perfect in every way and so the perfect Second Adam. It’s really all about Jesus–it always has been and always will be in the mind of the Church.

My post is directed at calling myself good. Not so much Mary.

 

[Della]

I am not Sola Scriptura as you can tell by looking at my church. The reason I question the historicity of the Assumption of Mary is actually simple. The first three hundred years after the resurrection no one writes about it. The first person to really address what happened to Mary was a Bishop and a prolific author. He was a staunch defender in her perpetual virginity. Epiphanius writes this about what happened to Mary at the end of her life.

The most staunch defender of Mary AND Bishop did not know if she died and was buried, martyred, or assumed. He clearly states no one knows.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis
I do not want to detract but if he did not know, how can I know?

No one mentioning it within a certain amount of time doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Indeed, since no one knows precisely what happened, it can be shown that it is possible. You may not believe it’s possible, but why limit God?

What is known is that there were no relics of Mary, no body, no bones, nothing of that sort. The only relics were clothing and the house where is said to have lived with John in Ephesus. Early Christians were mad about relics. If they had had her body they would have venerated it, as they did others. And Jews didn’t burn their dead but buried them. So, once again, it’s not impossible.

What you are really rejecting is the Church’s authority to decide matters of faith and morals–not in all things, but in those things you do not wish to accept. That’s up to you, of course, but please give us the benefit of the doubt by acknowledging that what the Church teaches is possible and reasonable and logical.

 

[Della]

My post is directed at calling myself good. Not so much Mary.

Okay, but what has that got to do with the topic at hand? Just puzzled.

 

[BrianH]

Okay, but what has that got to do with the topic at hand? Just puzzled.

Ok sure. It was only one comment. The comment was related how contrary to scripture our view is perceived because humble maid says she herself is good obedient woman. Well, I was stating that from MY perspective and from scripture calling oneself “good” seems rather different. It is simply something that does not occur too often. I am not a good person. I am a sinner. Calling yourself good is rather brash in the crowd I hang out in. Thats all…not trying to detract.

 

[humble_maid]

Ok sure. It was only one comment. The comment was related how contrary to scripture our view is perceived because humble maid says she herself is good obedient woman. Well, I was stating that from MY perspective and from scripture calling oneself “good” seems rather different. It is simply something that does not occur too often. I am not a good person. I am a sinner. Calling yourself good is rather brash in the crowd I hang out in. Thats all…not trying to detract.

Dear Brian I sent you a pm, but just for the record I was trying to show you the difference between a sinner such as myself and the unordinary position that Our Mother holds. Most protestants, perhaps not yourself, view her merely as a concubine or surrogate who is a reverent or good person.

I must sign out unfortunately, I would like to continue at a later should you be willing. Ciao Della. God Bless you all