Protestants, take a dare

[schaick]

No one mentioning it within a certain amount of time doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Indeed, since no one knows precisely what happened, it can be shown that it is possible. You may not believe it’s possible, but why limit God?

What is known is that there were no relics of Mary, no body, no bones, nothing of that sort. The only relics were clothing and the house where is said to have lived with John in Ephesus. Early Christians were mad about relics. If they had had her body they would have venerated it, as they did others. And Jews didn’t burn their dead but buried them. So, once again, it’s not impossible.

What you are really rejecting is the Church’s authority to decide matters of faith and morals–not in all things, but in those things you do not wish to accept. That’s up to you, of course, but please give us the benefit of the doubt by acknowledging that what the Church teaches is possible and reasonable and logical.

That is where I have to draw the line- traditons started way after the fact, that grow into a doctrine. People trying to add something that just isn’t there.

Traditions like this-viewing of a relic earns you a religious merit that shortens your time in Purgatory. Most of the relics being sold were fakes.

**Mary - She is for us to wonder and contemplate, but not state for a fact. ** This is not saying it is or isn’t possible, just that we do not know.

Yes I do reject an organization dictating to me what I have to believe, especially when it doesn’t deal with our salvation. That isn’t pride, it is just gaurding myself from evil.

 

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

That is where I have to draw the line- traditons started way after the fact, that grow into a doctrine. People trying to add something that just isn’t there.

Traditions like this-viewing of a relic earns you a religious merit that shortens your time in Purgatory. Most of the relics being sold were fakes.

**Mary - She is for us to wonder and contemplate, but not state for a fact. ** This is not saying it is or isn’t possible, just that we do not know.

Yes I do reject an organization dictating to me what I have to believe, especially when it doesn’t deal with our salvation. That isn’t pride, it is just gaurding myself from evil.

I use to think the same about this topic too, you cannot risk joining a church if you think it is in heresy.

 

[schaick]

I use to think the same about this topic too, you cannot risk joining a church if you think it is in heresy.

Thank you.

Hey mister Methodist, bite your tongue. I use to be a heretic just like you are now.

But isn’t this a bit mean calling BrianH a heretic?

LOL!! But I guess that is what Catholics mean when they call us Protestants and not Christians! LOL!!

her·e·tic   /n. ˈhɛrɪtɪk; adj. ˈhɛrɪtɪk, həˈrɛtɪk/ Show Spelled[n. her-i-tik; adj. her-i-tik, huh-ret-ik] Show IPA
–noun
1.a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrinesprescribed by that church.
2.Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3.anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
—Synonyms

1. apostate, backslider, recreant, protestant. 3. dissenter, skeptic, freethinker.

And to think I always thought of a freethinker in a positive way!!

 

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

Thank you.

But isn’t this a bit mean calling BrianH a heretic?

LOL!! But I guess that is what Catholics mean when they call us Protestants and not Christians! LOL!!

her·e·tic   /n. ˈhɛrɪtɪk; adj. ˈhɛrɪtɪk, həˈrɛtɪk/ Show Spelled[n. her-i-tik; adj. her-i-tik, huh-ret-ik] Show IPA
–noun
1.a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrinesprescribed by that church.
2.Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3.anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
—Synonyms

1. apostate, backslider, recreant, protestant. 3. dissenter, skeptic, freethinker.

And to think I always thought of a freethinker in a positive way!!

Yeah, I am just living up to a normal catholics reputation.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Bill
Thats really not the point. God can do anything. But did He? You cant blame me for evaluating what people claim. If the church did not write about it for hundreds of years and when they do they said “no one knows”. Could have been buried, could have been martyred, could have been assumed. He does not know because he says “no one” knows. He is a Bishop and an author. He carries a lot of weight.

What group is this Bishop with do you know.

 

[BrianH]

What group is this Bishop with do you know.

I suppose…the Eastern Orthodox would have the better claim in this case because Cyprus…I THINK. The East and West were still considered “one” during this time though.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I feel this should be said: Our Lady is not the sole exclusive property of the Roman Catholic Church. As an Anglo-Catholic, I am devoted to and love Our Lady very much. But devotion to Our Lady does not necessarily mean that one will accept or come to accept the universal ordinary authority of the Bishop of Rome as the Roman Communion currently understands it.

In fact, Our Lady is an image of the whole Church. She is catholic in the widest and most generous sense possible. She is the New Jerusalem, and her mantle shelters all Christians, be they Roman, Anglican, Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Lutheran, Old Catholic, SSPX, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Amish or our brothers and sisters in some other part of Christ’s Church. I would wish that more Christians would be devoted to her, but it does not follow from that that I would wish more Christians be Anglo-Catholic, Roman Catholic, Orthodox or what have you.

I understand that this notion of ecclesiology is not necessarily the Roman understanding of ecclesiology. But I wanted to write to make it clear that alternative ecclesiologies exist in which the Theotokos plays an incredible part, but that that does not mean that the ecclesiology must therefore be exclusive.

I hope everyone’s Lent will bear an abundance of Easter fruit!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Della]

That is where I have to draw the line- traditons started way after the fact, that grow into a doctrine. People trying to add something that just isn’t there.

Traditions like this-viewing of a relic earns you a religious merit that shortens your time in Purgatory. Most of the relics being sold were fakes.

Apostolic Tradition isn’t merely man-made traditions like eating turkey for Thanksgiving. They are the very teachings of Christ taught orally and in written form by the Apostles themselves. No doctrines were made up years after some small “t” tradition sprang up. The Church knows its own history and its own documents and what was there from the beginning and what wasn’t. It is unintentional calumny to state what you did about Catholic teaching. As to fake relics, so what? They have nothing to do with doctrine. The real ones, though are witnesses to the teachings of the Church but not the source nor any kind of proof.

**Mary - She is for us to wonder and contemplate, but not state for a fact. ** This is not saying it is or isn’t possible, just that we do not know.

You can know, though if you would accept the authority of the Church to declare this teaching dogma.

Yes I do reject an organization dictating to me what I have to believe, especially when it doesn’t deal with our salvation. That isn’t pride, it is just gaurding myself from evil.

If the Catholic Church were just another denomination I’d agree with you, but it isn’t. It is the Church Christ founded, the one he promised to protect, to be with until the end of the world (in the Sacraments), and that it would be led into all truth by the Holy Spirit and defeat the very gates of hell. It has been in continuous existence since 33 AD, from the Apostles down to their successors on whose heads they laid their hands to succeed them. If that isn’t reason enough to believe what it teaches and be under its authority, I don’t know what is.

 

[Della]

Grace & Peace!

I feel this should be said: Our Lady is not the sole exclusive property of the Roman Catholic Church. As an Anglo-Catholic, I am devoted to and love Our Lady very much. But devotion to Our Lady does not necessarily mean that one will accept or come to accept the universal ordinary authority of the Bishop of Rome as the Roman Communion currently understands it.

Of course, Rome hasn’t claimed that Mary belongs to exclusively to Catholics of the Roman Rite. She belongs to all mankind! The Church does claim the authority to decide matters of faith and morals because it was commissioned by Christ to that duty.

In fact, Our Lady is an image of the whole Church. She is catholic in the widest and most generous sense possible. She is the New Jerusalem, and her mantle shelters all Christians, be they Roman, Anglican, Baptist, Quaker, Methodist, Lutheran, Old Catholic, SSPX, Presbyterian, Orthodox, Amish or our brothers and sisters in some other part of Christ’s Church. I would wish that more Christians would be devoted to her, but it does not follow from that that I would wish more Christians be Anglo-Catholic, Roman Catholic, Orthodox or what have you.

Of course she is all these things, but again, it is the Catholic Church that has the duty and right to determine what is true teaching regarding her and what isn’t because Christ commissioned it.

I understand that this notion of ecclesiology is not necessarily the Roman understanding of ecclesiology. But I wanted to write to make it clear that alternative ecclesiologies exist in which the Theotokos plays an incredible part, but that that does not mean that the ecclesiology must therefore be exclusive.

I hope everyone’s Lent will bear an abundance of Easter fruit!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Well, the trouble is there is very little ecclesiology regarding Mary in most Protestant bodies other than denying the Church’s Marian teachings , even those teachings dealing with her being the Theotokos. The only unified teaching about Mary that is truly all inclusive is Catholic teaching.

You have a great Lent, too and a Blessed Easter!

 

[Bill_Pick]

I suppose…the Eastern Orthodox would have the better claim in this case because Cyprus…I THINK. The East and West were still considered “one” during this time though./QUOT

Thank You

 

[humble_maid]

The most staunch defender of Mary AND Bishop did not know if she died and was buried, martyred, or assumed. He clearly states no one knows.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphanius_of_Salamis
I do not want to detract but if he did not know, how can I know?

Good day Brian,
I checked out the link you provided but I saw no mention of the assumption; however I did find many references to the bishop’s writing regarding heresies of the time. It was very interesting to note that those who were accused were seeking the seat of Rome to rectify the issue. One example was the heretic Marcellinus. Thank you. This will prove to be very useful.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

I’ve seen it at least 10 times. I’m not sure of your point Rinnie

I can see that. But you are not the only one I can see. All I did was ask anyone to watch the movie, concentrate on the Blessed Mother and right after the movie tell me what you felt, if you felt a bond, another way of seeing her, etc. I saw all of these responses and got so excited. Then Not one person did it, Then why respond??

I understood I would get negative responses, but wow! Not one person watched the movie first.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I can see that. But you are not the only one I can see. All I did was ask anyone to watch the movie, concentrate on the Blessed Mother and right after the movie tell me what you felt, if you felt a bond, another way of seeing her, etc. I saw all of these responses and got so excited. Then Not one person did it, Then why respond??

I understood I would get negative responses, but wow! Not one person watched the movie first.

It’s okay, Rinnie. Some people come here only for an argument. You really made a great suggestion! I think I should take you up on that…concentrating on Mary’s Passion can be just as intense as Our Lord’s. :sad_yes:

:hug1eace & Blessings
~Therese

 

[humble_maid]

Why then are Catholics so desperate for us to believe that Mary remained a perpetual Virgin, was Immaculately concieved and assumed?

No Eve is the mother of the human race.

Mary is the mother of our Salvation.

Mary is the New Eve. The Mother of the Church(Body of Jesus).

Why then is it so important for some christians to believe that Jesus is God while others christians maintain He is not? If God wants us to understand truth than there can be no other form of it. Even changing but a letter can change the whole meaning; so when the Church Fathers teach that Mary was a perpetual virgin and that she is Immaculate whether it be ancient knowledge or contemporary revelation to appointed holy men, then it should be regarded with sacredness.

Daniel 12:4, 9, where the prophet is bidden to shut up and seal an inspired book until an appointed time). Accordingly it may be accepted as highly probable that in its original meaning an apocryphal writing had no unfavorable import, but simply denoted a composition which claimed a sacred origin, and was supposed to have been hidden for generations, either absolutely, awaiting the due time of its revelation, or relatively, inasmuch as knowledge of it was confined to a limited esoteric circle.

Not all writings have to be biblical in order to be true. The scripture above is proof of this. Some truths are for certain persons to know. FYI try to remember who gave us the bible. Here is the answer the CC.

God Bless

 

[Della]

I can see that. But you are not the only one I can see. All I did was ask anyone to watch the movie, concentrate on the Blessed Mother and right after the movie tell me what you felt, if you felt a bond, another way of seeing her, etc. I saw all of these responses and got so excited. Then Not one person did it, Then why respond??

I understood I would get negative responses, but wow! Not one person watched the movie first.

Sorry about that, rinnie. It’s the nature of these forums for people to go off topic especially when it’s a contentious one.

I’ve seen TPOTC a few times now and even as a Catholic convert who was brought into the Church through Mary’s witness it showed me things about her in a powerful way I thought I’d drawn all the juice from already, so to speak.

And I’ve read and heard about Protestants seeing the film and coming to a fresh understanding of Mary’s place in the Passion. It opened a lot of eyes and hearts. I can understand why you want others to have that experience. But for some people nothing could make them see Mary in the way Gibson portrayed her. They’ve been so set against seeing her as anything but a vessel that they cannot see her in any other light. And for others it’s just a springboard for argument against the Marian teachings. No one can make another person see/understand/cherish what another does, not even with the best tools men can employ if they don’t want to.

 

[humble_maid]

I can see that. But you are not the only one I can see. All I did was ask anyone to watch the movie, concentrate on the Blessed Mother and right after the movie tell me what you felt, if you felt a bond, another way of seeing her, etc. I saw all of these responses and got so excited. Then Not one person did it, Then why respond??

I understood I would get negative responses, but wow! Not one person watched the movie first.

Hello Rinnie,

I think many of us mentioned that we watched the movie and understood that you were trying to direct us to the importance of Mother Mary’s role in the plan of salvation. She was not just a vessel but the Mother of Church and the Mother of God. This is why I expressly pasted the scripture in post #3. She and Jesus have one Heart. In many ways they are one, of course it is not in the same manner with which we understand the Holy Trinity. Jesus truly is God and Human while Our Mother is the promise of what we will become; yet she was elevated by Her Son with many titles one being ‘The Queen of Heaven and Angels’.

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

Thanks guys. I just figured lent and all I could use this opportunity to some how shed some light on the Love and connection we feel for her. My Heart is always so heavy for her at this horrible time of the year. Not to take away any of our Dear lords suffering, but to show her connection in the suffering also. But sorry guys I let you down. I flopped!

 

[rinnie]

Sorry about that, rinnie. It’s the nature of these forums for people to go off topic especially when it’s a contentious one.

I’ve seen TPOTC a few times now and even as a Catholic convert who was brought into the Church through Mary’s witness it showed me things about her in a powerful way I thought I’d drawn all the juice from already, so to speak.

And I’ve read and heard about Protestants seeing the film and coming to a fresh understanding of Mary’s place in the Passion. It opened a lot of eyes and hearts. I can understand why you want others to have that experience. But for some people nothing could make them see Mary in the way Gibson portrayed her. They’ve been so set against seeing her as anything but a vessel that they cannot see her in any other light. And for others it’s just a springboard for argument against the Marian teachings. No one can make another person see/understand/cherish what another does, not even with the best tools men can employ if they don’t want to.

Yes thats it exactly. I thought it would be a way for me to bring Protestants and Catholics together for a change and be able to bond together with the Blessed Mother for a change. But again didn’t work. Again Sorry

 

[Della]

Yes thats it exactly. I thought it would be a way for me to bring Protestants and Catholics together for a change and be able to bond together with the Blessed Mother for a change. But again didn’t work. Again Sorry

Not to belabor this, but the title: “Protestants, take a dare” is a challenge rather than a sharing kind of come on. Maybe a better title might have been: “Brethren, share Your Thoughts on Mary in Gibson’s the Passion”. And it helps to keep an eye on your thread to help direct it, too, if possible. Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[Janet1983]

Hey mister Methodist, bite your tongue. I use to be a heretic just like you are now.

Excuse me? Isn’t that a little bit daring, if not to say insulting if you just go ahead and call somebody a heretic because of their denomination?
I’ve been called a heretic before, but that is because I was raised in the CC and recently defected formally… I can bring up some sort of understanding for people calling me out for that, but you are in no position to call someone a heretic just because he wasn’t raised Catholic and never converted either.