Protestants, What Do You Make Of Romans 2:5-13?

[JonNC]

I think this is the aspect that is missing in the Sola Fide and Sola Gratia approaches. Faith is never alone.

Guan,
You will/should never hear a Lutheran say faith is alone. While it is grace through faith that justifies, true faith must be accompanied by growth in grace, doing as Christ commanded by allowing the HS to work through us. Faith that is alone (without works) is a dead faith.

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Well, again, we have an issue of semantics.

Making righteous is a matter of sanctification; being conformed to the image of Jesus daily.

I agree, but prior to the birth of Christ, they did not have the privilege of knowing Him as we do. Thus my question, what made people righteous when they were under Law (before Christ)?

But justification is something more than this. It is a reckoning by God (see Romans 6:11), an accounting of us as righteous for the sake of Christ.

I agree. But what about before the righteousness that comes from Grace? How were those made righteous?

In either case though it’s always been the same, people have always been sanctified by God in the works He has prepared before hand for us and in being conformed to His image, and people have always been justified by faith alone.

I agree, we are made holy through grace, and by doing His commandments. Do you think this applies also to those before Christ?

Suffice to say that the bible does not teach that people are absolutely free to believe.

Indeed, the Bible does not “teach” at all. This was a task Jesus gave to the Church.

What it teaches is that the heart is degenerate and must be regenerated by God first before it can believe.

No. This is a misunderstanding coming from Calvin.

Before this the bible’s language about its state is pretty stark; that it is at enmity with God is about as gentle as it gets.

Estrangement from God does not mean that we are unable to receive grace. God’s grace is greater than our estrangment.

The passage about working out ones salvation however is illustrative of what I am saying. We do have the responsibility to grow in faith and grace and, again, be conformed to His image. But do not mistake me, even this is God's work in us, there is no synergy beyond that of the man pulled from the swirling maelstrom agreeing that it was good that he was rescued.

What you are describing is not synergy at all. It is an abrogation of the image of God in which we are made.

Grace is not faith, but faith is grace.

No. Faith is a quality that God has created humans to have. Grace is His unmeritied favor toward us, which we access by the faith He gave us.

We cannot believe unless God gives us faith. I know you will differ in how you interpret Ephesians 2:8-10, but I believe this is what it is saying.

Catholics call this “pre-venient” grace, or calling. His call is given to all. Those who choose to respond are the elect. Those who persevere until the end are the sanctified.

 

[look3467]

I agree, but prior to the birth of Christ, they did not have the privilege of knowing Him as we do. Thus my question, what made people righteous when they were under Law (before Christ)?>>>guanophore

The answer to that question is simple! That is, if we have knowledge of the saving God’s saving grace.

That knowledge is that in Jesus were the foundations of the world saved!
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Here we see that God left no soul out of His saving grace, even those before Christ to the very foundation of the world.

We are, of all people most blessed to be in the know, having not seen Jesus, but in faith do believe and accept Gods gift of grace (life).

But to all those before Christ, He visited them and liberated them all.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[guanophore]

Guan,
You will/should never hear a Lutheran say faith is alone. While it is grace through faith that justifies, true faith must be accompanied by growth in grace, doing as Christ commanded by allowing the HS to work through us. Faith that is alone (without works) is a reading your posts, for this reason,and others. :console:

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Question on this quote:

If infant Baptism “save you now” and “grace can not be earned”, what happens to the now saved, unearned grace person who commits and act worthy of hell?

**Gabriel of 12:
IF the Baptized child of God committed a grave (Mortal) sin? Jesus instituted the Sacrament of reconciliation (Confession) where the Grace and Mercy of God washes the confessed sinner with the blood of Jesus (Lamb of God), The confessed sinner merits the Grace and Mercy of God by repenting of his sin, upon falling from the Grace of God, which is a work that works out ones salvation with fear and trembling.

When the Baptized fall into mortal sin that is deadly, the Law convicts the sinner, whereby the sacrament of confession, Grace abounds and God’s Mercy removes the conviction of the law from the confessed sinner, where God remembers his sin no more forever. But if the Baptized continue to live in mortal sin, which will ultimately lead to death. That is why Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession and or the ministry of reconciliation, so that if and when one falls into temptation and acts on his temptation, Grace is still accessible to those who repent of their sins in Jesus ministry of reconciliation where Jesus is always present.**

Is all that lost in the act?

**Gabriel of 12:
Yes, one can lose his/her salvation, if that is what your question is? But due to God’s wonderful Grace and Mercy, by the Sacrament of “Confession” The repentative sinner can find his way home again to God through God’s Grace and Mercy in this Sacrament. “Where there are two or more gathered in my name” you can be assured Jesus is always present. Catholics have the promise and guarantee from God, that our confessed sins, God remembers them no more. For it is the Lamb before God that looks as if slain in heaven that forever offers his sacrifice for our sins, in his ministry he continues to work through his body the Catholic church. **

It seems that the one hand is saying that baptism “saves you now” and the other hand may be an iffy, depending on God’s grace via our actions, might just condemn us to hell?

Something wrong with that picture?

**Gabriel of 12:
I agree with you, something is wrong with the picture if one subscribes to the “Sola” theologies, because these limit God’s Mercy and Grace, and what recourse do they have should they fall into mortal sin as you just described? if they subscribe to limit God to the “Sola” theologies? But; thank God for the ministry and sacrament of “confession” which is for the baptized, which Jesus Christ himself instituted.

Baptism “saves you now” both infants and adults. This is the first Sacrament of initiation of becoming a child of God in his kingdom. You can not enter the wedding feast of the lamb without this wedding Garment in heaven.

The second sacrament of intitiation is “Confession” this is for the already baptized or believer. The third Sacrament of intitiation is “Holy Communion” with Our One God through the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Chirst.

Again, yes, one can lose his salvation, just as “Lucifer” and his demons did. Those that are baptised are no longer of the world, but are in the kingdom of God. It is from here the baptized begin to work out his salvation with fear and trembling. So yes “works” or as you put it, “actions” of the believer keeps him in the Grace of God, or can fall from Grace, but yet through the sacrament of “confession” forgiveness by the Mercy of God is given where Grace continues to abound. For those who are of the Spirit, the law cannot convict.**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is true, but by conforming oneself to the will of God, one can merit grace, which means that one has chosen to walk in the deeds of righteousness that he prepared before the foundation of the world, and thus, can improve one’s relationship with God (more grace). To the one that has, more will be given.

**Gabriel of 12:
We have to be careful here, for St. Paul teaches that for those who Know the “Truth” and continue to sin, is like trying to recrucify Christ which was done once and for all. This is much to be considered, this may be getting off topic.

I agree one can grow in Grace, but it is always God’s grace is sufficient. It is through Jesus and his Sacraments where one is merited Grace, for Jesus paid the price once and for all.**

I would say that the first act is a profession of faith, but that accompanies or is followed by baptism.

Gabriel of 12;
The profession of faith is made at baptism, as you stated. What is interesting, the infant’s God parents and parents make the profession of faith for the baptized infant, until the child comes to the knowledge and understanding to make the profession of faith again in the sacrament of “confirmation”.

I think this is the aspect that is missing in the Sola Fide and Sola Gratia approaches. Faith is never alone.

Gabriel of 12:
“Faith is the realization of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen” I agree “Sola Fe” is not scriptural

Do you think the passage in the OP is speaking of believers, or unbelievers?

**Gabriel of 12:
From at a glance it appears to be speaking about both believer and non believer. At the same time giving instruction to Gentile, and Hellenistic Jewish Christians about the difference between Jewish Law keepers and Gentiles, that in Jesus Christ There is no division. **

 

[guanophore]

**Gabriel of 12:
IF the Baptized child of God committed a grave (Mortal) sin? Jesus instituted the Sacrament of reconciliation (Confession) where the Grace and Mercy of God washes the confessed sinner with the blood of Jesus (Lamb of God), The confessed sinner merits the Grace and Mercy of God by repenting of his sin, upon falling from the Grace of God, which is a work that works out ones salvation with fear and trembling.

When the Baptized fall into mortal sin that is deadly, the Law convicts the sinner, whereby the sacrament of confession, Grace abounds and God’s Mercy removes the conviction of the law from the confessed sinner, where God remembers his sin no more forever. But if the Baptized continue to live in mortal sin, which will ultimately lead to death. That is why Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession and or the ministry of reconciliation, so that if and when one falls into temptation and acts on his temptation, Grace is still accessible to those who repent of their sins in Jesus ministry of reconciliation where Jesus is always present.**

**Gabriel of 12:
Yes, one can lose his/her salvation, if that is what your question is? But due to God’s wonderful Grace and Mercy, by the Sacrament of “Confession” The repentative sinner can find his way home again to God through God’s Grace and Mercy in this Sacrament. “Where there are two or more gathered in my name” you can be assured Jesus is always present. Catholics have the promise and guarantee from God, that our confessed sins, God remembers them no more. For it is the Lamb before God that looks as if slain in heaven that forever offers his sacrifice for our sins, in his ministry he continues to work through his body the Catholic church. **

**Gabriel of 12:
I agree with you, something is wrong with the picture if one subscribes to the “Sola” theologies, because these limit God’s Mercy and Grace, and what recourse do they have should they fall into mortal sin as you just described? if they subscribe to limit God to the “Sola” theologies? But; thank God for the ministry and sacrament of “confession” which is for the baptized, which Jesus Christ himself instituted.

Baptism “saves you now” both infants and adults. This is the first Sacrament of initiation of becoming a child of God in his kingdom. You can not enter the wedding feast of the lamb without this wedding Garment in heaven.

The second sacrament of intitiation is “Confession” this is for the already baptized or believer. The third Sacrament of intitiation is “Holy Communion” with Our One God through the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Chirst.

Again, yes, one can lose his salvation, just as “Lucifer” and his demons did. Those that are baptised are no longer of the world, but are in the kingdom of God. It is from here the baptized begin to work out his salvation with fear and trembling. So yes “works” or as you put it, “actions” of the believer keeps him in the Grace of God, or can fall from Grace, but yet through the sacrament of “confession” forgiveness by the Mercy of God is given where Grace continues to abound. For those who are of the Spirit, the law cannot convict.**

Great post Gabriel! I want to make a couple comments. One is that Lucifer did not need to be “saved” as he was created in right relationship with God, just as Adam and Eve were. He lost his right standing with God as they did through rebellion.

Also, you well describe the purpose and function of the sacrament of reconciliation here. However, I would say that confirmation is the third sacrament of initiation. In the Eastern Rites, infants receive baptism, Eucharist, and confirmation all at once. Children are not expected to partake of Reconciliation until the age of reason.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Great post Gabriel! I want to make a couple comments. One is that Lucifer did not need to be “saved” as he was created in right relationship with God, just as Adam and Eve were. He lost his right standing with God as they did through rebellion.

Also, you well describe the purpose and function of the sacrament of reconciliation here. However, I would say that confirmation is the third sacrament of initiation. In the Eastern Rites, infants receive baptism, Eucharist, and confirmation all at once. Children are not expected to partake of Reconciliation until the age of reason.

Gabriel of 12:
God bless you and Amen; I follow you and your respectful “Rite”. In our Latin “Rite” we are in full agreement about the age of reason in the Sacrament of reconciliation. The timing of each ones respectful “Rites” of administrating the Sacraments does not cause conflict of respecting ones beautiful cultures. We in the west, because of much cultural differences and worldly influence, not to mention we learned to read and write, so our “Orthodoxy” faith is not lived out by example in our families and communities as before. The sacraments of Eucharist, Confession and Confirmation must be taught and instructed to the aged of reason, inorder not to be moved by every wind of doctrine.

As far as “Lucifer’s” fall and Adams “O” happy fault, requires much theological discussion. I do agree with your insightful comment, that “Lucifer” did not need to be saved, due to his perfect will, which cannot be reversed from his decision to rebell against God’s will, thus no salvation for the “father of Lies”.

P.S "Confirmation is the Third Sacrament. Confession and Holy communion are administered simotaneously, but are considered distinct sacraments.

Peace be with you

 

[look3467]

Gabriel of 12

I agree with guanophore on your excellent response via the views of the Catholic Church.
It shows that you have a very good understanding of Catholic doctrine and its views.

Outside of that envelope is a clearer understanding, in my view, of the saving grace of God.
A universal saving grace unlimited, only to Jesus was it not.

Let me explain, mankind was originally separated (Lost) and in need of saving.
Had Jesus not taken the loss for us, we would not have a thread of hope in salvation.

Therefore, the only one condemned here was Jesus!

Before we conjure up any opposition to that thought, let me give you Jesus’ saving grace: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Condemned for the sins of the world and sent to hell, Jesus was forgiven: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

A promise given Jesus which was fulfilled at His resurrection.

Jesus is now the King over all: Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jesus would have not one soul lost but would be all inclusive.
Here is an all inclusive Jesus: Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

…“to preach the gospel to the poor”… Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

…“to heal the brokenhearted”…Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

…“deliverance to the captives”…Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

…" recovering of sight to the blind"… spiritually blind, Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

…“set at liberty them that are bruised”… The ones bruised are they to whom the channels of God were opened to, and there they messed up the channel by crucifying the Son of God. Eze 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Jesus, said of them who crucified Him, who in turn bruised Him, Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Both Jesus and the Jews were alike bruised: Here the stage is set:
Deu 28:44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
Jesus will submit to them, while they will not submit to Him, where as they were once the head now shall be the tail.

And God will cut them both off: Head and tail: Isa 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

Note: “in one day?” The day of His crucification.

So, in total, Jesus and the Jews, one cancels the other, and of twain:Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This new man? His church! The spiritual church of which we, who are believers are a new man, a new creation, one that is after life and not death.
To that God be thanked, blessed and forever be glorified as our love will ever be for Him, about Him and forever.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12

I agree with guanophore on your excellent response via the views of the Catholic Church.
It shows that you have a very good understanding of Catholic doctrine and its views.

Outside of that envelope is a clearer understanding, in my view, of the saving grace of God.
A universal saving grace unlimited, only to Jesus was it not.

Let me explain, mankind was originally separated (Lost) and in need of saving.
Had Jesus not taken the loss for us, we would not have a thread of hope in salvation.

Therefore, the only one condemned here was Jesus!

Before we conjure up any opposition to that thought, let me give you Jesus’ saving grace: Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Condemned for the sins of the world and sent to hell, Jesus was forgiven: Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

A promise given Jesus which was fulfilled at His resurrection.

Jesus is now the King over all: Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Jesus would have not one soul lost but would be all inclusive.
Here is an all inclusive Jesus: Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

…“to preach the gospel to the poor”… Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

…“to heal the brokenhearted”…Psa 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

…“deliverance to the captives”…Zec 9:11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

…" recovering of sight to the blind"… spiritually blind, Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

…“set at liberty them that are bruised”… The ones bruised are they to whom the channels of God were opened to, and there they messed up the channel by crucifying the Son of God. Eze 23:3 And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity.

Jesus, said of them who crucified Him, who in turn bruised Him, Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

**Gabriel of 12;
Ok, I got the just of Jesus paying the price for all humanity, all Christians who know Jesus being God incarnate accept this teaching. You will find no opposition from a Catholic perspective. Now that we both know the price paid for our salvation, would it not be obvious to obey the Lord who saved us from eternal death? I respectfully accept your scripture undertaking, but; for clarification what is the point you wish to express here?

According to the Covenant of God with humanity; In order for the Covenant to be fulfilled or null and void of its convictions the testator must die, for the other to be free from the Law of the Covenant. My question to you would be? What happens next?**

 

[look3467]

Gabriel of 12;
Ok, I got the just of Jesus paying the price for all humanity, all Christians who know Jesus being God incarnate accept this teaching. You will find no opposition from a Catholic perspective. Now that we both know the price paid for our salvation, would it not be obvious to obey the Lord who saved us from eternal death? I respectfully accept your scripture undertaking, but; for clarification what is the point you wish to express here?

According to the Covenant of God with humanity; In order for the Covenant to be fulfilled or null and void of its convictions the testator must die, for the other to be free from the Law of the Covenant. My question to you would be? What happens next?
Reply With Quote

.

…“would it not be obvious to obey the Lord who saved us from eternal death?”…

Obey the Lord is to love God will all our hearts, mind and soul, which fulfills the 1st five of the Ten Commandments.

Obey the Lord by loving thy neighbor as thyself which completes the 6th to the tenth Commandments.

Obeying then is out of desire to obey and not of requirement.

…"what is the point you wish to express here?..

My point is of universal salvation. Meaning that God’s recreation was with a quickening spirit.

By recreation God did for mankind what mankind could not do, and that was for mankind to save itself via mankind’s own righteousness acceptable to God.

In that case mankind’s works were under the law. and the law was to harsh and strict to where no human soul save God Himself could meet.

That means that we are all under the saving grace of God, and regardless of our beliefs we are all brothers and sisters.

Hence; love thy neighbor as thy self?

What happens next?

We work out our salvation! The only way to work something out is to work from something we already have acquired spiritually, as a gift, and to obey by making our body conform to the new kingdom’s desires.

This understanding is outside the envelope of traditional views, but if you think about it, it is consistent with John 3:16.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

.
Obey the Lord is to love God will all our hearts, mind and soul, which fulfills the 1st five of the Ten Commandments.

Obey the Lord by loving thy neighbor as thyself which completes the 6th to the tenth Commandments.

Obeying then is out of desire to obey and not of requirement.

**Gabriel of 12:
Interesting you should point out what is obedience and not a requirement?
For one these two greatest of the Commandments fulfill the law and prophets, and you do well to obey them. Again they fulfill the Law and the prophets. Let’s not confuse the Laws of the old covenant such as “circumcision”, “temple sacrifice” “passover” etc. which Paul excludes from anyone becoming Christian.
With the work and faith of the already saved Christian.

Just a few Requirements for the Christian to obey;

Jesus requires first to enter into his kingdom one MUST (Requirement by Jesus) first be baptised, or born of water and Spirit. Jesus then COMMANDS those believers to eat his flesh and drink his blood (Requirement) in order to have eternal life. Jesus COMMANDS (Requirement) to “do this in memory of me”. Jesus COMMANDS (Requirement) to “confess our sins” “Repent”. Jesus Commisions his Church by COMMANDMENT to go out into the world, Preach, teach, baptise, and forgive sins.

These things are obeyed by Catholics not just because God commands them, but out of Love for God and neighbor Catholics obey and follow Jesus.**

My point is of universal salvation. Meaning that God’s recreation was with a quickening spirit.

By recreation God did for mankind what mankind could not do, and that was for mankind to save itself via mankind’s own righteousness acceptable to God.

In that case mankind’s works were under the law. and the law was to harsh and strict to where no human soul save God Himself could meet.

That means that we are all under the saving grace of God, and regardless of our beliefs we are all brothers and sisters.

Hence; love thy neighbor as thy self?

**Gabriel of 12:
It is the Work of Jesus who instituted Baptism, that Grace is parted to the believer. Biblically speaking these are a new creation by regeneration, not recreation, for the baptized all die to self in the baptismal waters to be raised a new creation in Jesus Christ.

All of creation falls under God’s Grace, but to come to the Grace that saves life eternally begins at Baptism, then comes the Working out of ones salvation in faith where Jesus Christ is present in his Sacraments, where Paul states it is no longer “I” who live but Jesus Christ who lives in me.**

We work out our salvation! The only way to work something out is to work from something we already have acquired spiritually, as a gift, and to obey by making our body conform to the new kingdom’s desires.

This understanding is outside the envelope of traditional views, but if you think about it, it is consistent with John 3:16.

**Gabriel of 12:
Spirit is never spoken as symbolic in Sacred Scripture, so to work out from something aquired spiritually goes against biblical teaching and apostolic sacred Tradtion.
I agree with you 100% Your understanding of the biblical Spirit and working out ones salvation is not only outside the envelope of Apostolic teaching and Apostolic Sacred Tradition, It is never taught in Sacred Scripture.

I dont see John 3:16 speaking about ones spirituality, or works. As far as “believe” the father of lies and demons believe in Jesus. To believe in the Work of God’s saving Grace in his Son Jesus, begins here in faith followed by Works as commanded by Jesus Christ himself.

I am compelled to summarize here that; Catholics who follow Jesus and do the works of him as Jesus commands begin this journey in Love of God and Love of neighbor. Catholics do these greater works, not to earn salvation, we have attained this through our baptism, now we do the works of him who sustains us through his Sacraments so as not to lose God and our salvation.

Peace be with you**

 

[look3467]

Gabriel of 12

Your dedication to your views is your choice of form of worship based on the knowledge you’ve gained via the era of time of your existence.
Had you been born 1,000 years before Christ you would find yourself in a completely different belief structure.

What then is God to do with all of them who had not the opportunity to be Baptized as you much less know anything about Jesus?

Did none baptism condemn them as you say Baptism saves you?

Did God somehow forget all those souls who lived and died before Christ, consisting of cave man, the heathen and the Jews?

Why would the requirement of baptism be different for us then it was for them?

What saved them? Or, were they not saved?

Did you have a choice in being born? Did you have a choice in picking the time in human history to be born in?

Did you have a choice in being born a Catholic and not a Jew, or a Muslim?

Did God err in His creation by the different belief structures?

Seems to me that we are greatly under estimating the love of God when we, with our beliefs feel that ours is the only true belief and all others are in error?

But, if we conclude that the answer to our unity between all the different beliefs is love, then we are unto something far beyond the human psyche of what constitutes truth.

For God so loved the world (His creation) [which was lost in the process of creation] that he recreated the condition by which the world through Jesus might be saved.

My point is that regardless of the choice of spiritual and physical practice, the heart is where God finds rest in.

Jesus had no place to rest His head but in the hearts of mankind.
Head in this instance is not His physical head, but the head of His government which is the new Kingdom.

Your choice to partake of the Eucharist is your form of worship, that if done in sincerity , blessing are forthcoming.

Jesus gives us that liberty.
Ref:Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

And our liberty judged? Cr 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man’s] conscience?

I therefore take care to: 1Cr 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[guanophore]

Had you been born 1,000 years before Christ you would find yourself in a completely different belief structure.

I agree that we only know that to which we have been exposed. However, God’s plan of salvation has never changed. He has always saved man by grace, through faith. Some OT examples of this are seen in Heb.11.

What then is God to do with all of them who had not the opportunity to be Baptized as you much less know anything about Jesus?

God reveals Himself to them. These are the ones to whom Jesus preached after His crucifixion. Some of them came forth from their tombs when the gates of heaven were opened.

Did none baptism condemn them as you say Baptism saves you?

It is not we who say this, but God’s word.

1 Peter 3:20-22
21 And **baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you **— not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

We are all born into sin through the fall of Adam and Eve. We are separated from God, and unable to walk in right relationship with Him.

Mark 16:15-17
16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; **but the one who does not believe will be condemned. **

Those who are not baptized are condemned already, because they were born under a death sentence. Only Jesus’ blood can deliver us from the death sentence of original sin. We access His sacrifice by being baptized into His death.

Did God somehow forget all those souls who lived and died before Christ, consisting of cave man, the heathen and the Jews?

God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He gave us baptism. This is His commandment for the Church age.

All the souls that were looking forward with joyful hope to His coming were awaiting him in “paradise” or as the Jews called it, the bosom of Abraham. This is the place of the righteous dead.

1 Peter 4:6
6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

Eph 4:9-11
“…he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things…”

Why would the requirement of baptism be different for us then it was for them?

This is like asking “why did God choose Isaac instead of Ishmael through whom to make his covenant”? I don’t know why God does some of the things he does. What I do know is that once we are given the holy commandment, we are responsible to follow it. This is the obedience of faith. Those who claim to belong to Him do not disobey His commandments.

1 John 5:2-4
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, 4 for whatever is born of God conquers the world.

What saved them? Or, were they not saved?

There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved.

Did you have a choice in being born? Did you have a choice in picking the time in human history to be born in?

Not sure how this applies. God’s word is clear that everyone is given sufficient revelation to choose between good and evil.

Did you have a choice in being born a Catholic and not a Jew, or a Muslim?

Each person in judged in the light of the amount of revelation they have recieved. Those who claim to be Christian, and have known the commandments of Jesus will be judged with greater strictness.

Did God err in His creation by the different belief structures?

I do not believe that God created the differences. I believe they are created by those who reject some or all of His revelation.

Seems to me that we are greatly under estimating the love of God when we, with our beliefs feel that ours is the only true belief and all others are in error?

The Catholic church is the fullness, it is where Jesus demonstrated all of what He brought from the father. Truth can be found in many places. Each person is judged in the light of the truth they have received.

But, if we conclude that the answer to our unity between all the different beliefs is love, then we are unto something far beyond the human psyche of what constitutes truth.

This is absolutely true! God is far beyond the human psyche. He is the embodiment of God’s Truth. It is only when we are united in Him, by the Truth He revealed that we will have unity.

For God so loved the world (His creation) [which was lost in the process of creation] that he recreated the condition by which the world through Jesus might be saved.

I disagree with this, but since I am not sure how it is related, I am going to pass.

My point is that regardless of the choice of spiritual and physical practice, the heart is where God finds rest in.

Yes, but each one has a responsibility for responding to what has been revealed to them. To those who have been given much, more is required.

Your choice to partake of the Eucharist is your form of worship, that if done in sincerity , blessing are forthcoming.

Actually no. It is Jesus’ form. He said that the true followers of God will worship in spirit and in truth, and He gave us this form as the highest.