Protestants: what do you think about the war against Iraq?

[Yerusalyim]

And, the war in Iraq is illegal.

No, the war is NOT illegal. The US Congress authorized the war. The Cease Fire violations by Hussein’s Iraq alone were enough to justify the war, his conduct toward the UN Inspectors who WERE NOT doing a good job of containing his weapons programs and his support of terrorists were further valid reasons to oust this man.

I’m amazed that Americans still support their President on this, given the weight of lies told over WMDs!

First, the WMD that the UN Inspectors said Saddam had are STILL unaccounted for…moved to syria? buried? destroy? no one knows…if anyone doubts he had them look at my daughter’s medical records of the birth defects she has because I was exposed to these WMD during the first Gulf War (and I’m still a Soldier on Active Duty). What “lie” was told? Every major intelligence service in the world thought Saddam had WMD…and we have discovered some…and other forbidden weapons…but the whereabouts of the WMD are as of now undetermined.

Look to who’s profiteering.

The Democrats who are pursuing defeat with gusto…they are profiteering…selling out the nation and the Iraqi’s and the world for power in DC. Kids…think about it, what will be the logical conclusion of leaving Iraq? Something worse than Afghanistan…with oil.

If you want to blame someone for the war, first blame Saddam Hussein for his Weapons, his support of terror, his dictatorship, his conduct toward the UN Inspectors…he is the main culprit. Next, blame the United Nations…that utterly worthless organization that has no spine at all, except in opposing the US. Had the United Nations presented a United Front to Saddam he might have not miscalculated that he could flout the worthless resolutions against Iraq that the UN passed.

Finally, blame nations like France, Germany, the UK and some in the US who let Saddam abuse the Oil for Food program to enrich himself and bribe government officials.

The war isn’t fun, mistakes were made…but the simple fact is we are there, and to leave before Iraq is stable would be a far greater mistake than the percieved mistake of entering Iraq.

 

[Montalban]

I know what you mean. After years of lies and distortions by the President’s opponents, it is amazing President Bush still has any support at all.

– Mark L. Chance.

Colon Powell bit the bullet after deceiving the Congress, but Bush still motors on.

 

[mlchance]

Colon Powell bit the bullet after deceiving the Congress, but Bush still motors on.

See? There’s another one. Here are some popular myths (to use a more polite term):

1. The war was all about WMDs.
2. President Bush lied about WMDs.
3. President Bush said Iraq was part of 9/11.
4. The war was illegal.
5. Iraq wasn’t involved in terrorism.
6. Iraq never did anything to the U.S.

Every single myth can be readily refuted (and has been ad nauseum), but the blind cannot see, and this thread is about what Protestants think. Thus, adieu.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Montalban]

No, the war is NOT illegal.

Yes, it is. Under International Law - the UN never sanctioned this war

The US Congress authorized the war.

Indeed, but the power of Congress ends at the US border - or do you suppose that Congress has the power to legislate beyond itself?

The Cease Fire violations by Hussein’s Iraq alone were enough to justify the war, his conduct toward the UN Inspectors who WERE NOT doing a good job of containing his weapons programs and his support of terrorists were further valid reasons to oust this man.

That then was up to the UN. Imagine if you would you’re watching a football game. The referee may be missing some important calls. It’s not up to you to storm onto the field and push the referee off and start running the game. That’s what the US did in relation to the UN - pretended that they were championing something the UN didn’t ask for.

First, the WMD that the UN Inspectors said Saddam had are STILL unaccounted for…moved to syria? buried? destroy? no one knows…

So your excuse is that you’ve no evidence of them so they must still be around?

if anyone doubts he had them look at my daughter’s medical records of the birth defects she has because I was exposed to these WMD during the first Gulf War (and I’m still a Soldier on Active Duty).

The activity of US depleted Uranium shells from the first Gulf War is a known factor for causing birth defects

What “lie” was told? Every major intelligence service in the world thought Saddam had WMD…

Based on US intelligence telling them so.

and we have discovered some…and other forbidden weapons…but the whereabouts of the WMD are as of now undetermined.

SO you’ve either discovered ‘some’ or ‘none’. Make up your mind.

The Democrats who are pursuing defeat with gusto…they are profiteering…selling out the nation and the Iraqi’s and the world for power in DC.

There’s no doubt that Cheney and others are making vast fortunes from this illegal war

Kids…think about it, what will be the logical conclusion of leaving Iraq? Something worse than Afghanistan…with oil.

Like the missing WMDs your ‘evidence’ is simple speculation

If you want to blame someone for the war, first blame Saddam Hussein for his Weapons,

bought from successive US governments. When he poisoned the Kurds, he was a US ally.

his support of terror, his dictatorship, his conduct toward the UN Inspectors…he is the main culprit.

He was indeed a terrorist. Like Norriega in central america, he was long a US supporter. When you no longer need such you fein shock and horror at all the things they do.

Next, blame the United Nations…that utterly worthless organization that has no spine at all, except in opposing the US.

Then leave the UN

Had the United Nations presented a United Front to Saddam he might have not miscalculated that he could flout the worthless resolutions against Iraq that the UN passed.

That’s up to the UN. You can’t both be a member and claim to support collective action and then cry like a baby when you don’t get things your own way.

Finally, blame nations like France, Germany, the UK and some in the US who let Saddam abuse the Oil for Food program to enrich himself and bribe government officials.

More blame-shifting

The war isn’t fun, mistakes were made…but the simple fact is we are there, and to leave before Iraq is stable would be a far greater mistake than the percieved mistake of entering Iraq.

See above re: my analogy about thugs that come into your house.

 

[rr1213]

And, the war in Iraq is illegal.

Really? On what grounds?

 

[rr1213]

Yes, it is. Under International Law - the UN never sanctioned this war.

I don’t know what it’s like in Australia, but the United States of America is a sovereign nation and we do not need the permission of anyone to wage war in our national interest and that of our allies.

Moreover, Australia would be a Japanese or Soviet puppet state if not for the protection of American arms.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

No, the war is NOT illegal. The US Congress authorized the war. The Cease Fire violations by Hussein’s Iraq alone were enough to justify the war, his conduct toward the UN Inspectors who WERE NOT doing a good job of containing his weapons programs and his support of terrorists were further valid reasons to oust this man.

First, the WMD that the UN Inspectors said Saddam had are STILL unaccounted for…moved to syria? buried? destroy? no one knows…if anyone doubts he had them look at my daughter’s medical records of the birth defects she has because I was exposed to these WMD during the first Gulf War (and I’m still a Soldier on Active Duty). What “lie” was told? Every major intelligence service in the world thought Saddam had WMD…and we have discovered some…and other forbidden weapons…but the whereabouts of the WMD are as of now undetermined.

The Democrats who are pursuing defeat with gusto…they are profiteering…selling out the nation and the Iraqi’s and the world for power in DC. Kids…think about it, what will be the logical conclusion of leaving Iraq? Something worse than Afghanistan…with oil.

If you want to blame someone for the war, first blame Saddam Hussein for his Weapons, his support of terror, his dictatorship, his conduct toward the UN Inspectors…he is the main culprit. Next, blame the United Nations…that utterly worthless organization that has no spine at all, except in opposing the US. Had the United Nations presented a United Front to Saddam he might have not miscalculated that he could flout the worthless resolutions against Iraq that the UN passed.

Finally, blame nations like France, Germany, the UK and some in the US who let Saddam abuse the Oil for Food program to enrich himself and bribe government officials.

The war isn’t fun, mistakes were made…but the simple fact is we are there, and to leave before Iraq is stable would be a far greater mistake than the percieved mistake of entering Iraq.

good answers.

and I have another question no one can answer. Remember Sad mans palaces? Remember ALL the stuff in them? Well Im asking where is the stuff from all those palaces? Im sure no one has found anything either. Do you know if this is right?

Ive never heard about finding the large quantities of items. and if they cant find that . . . .

 

[mozart-250]

I’m asking this question because I know that some of you believe that existence of independent Israel is necessary for the second coming of Jesus. Do you think that this is right to start war and shed blood just to keep Israel safe ? Are you proud that protestant Bush decided to attack Iraq?

First of all the war has nothing to do with “protestant Bush”. It was also confirmed by “catholic congressmen”.

If you do the history, it was a given at the time that it started that Iraq had WMD (believed by both Democrats and Republicans). The debate at that time was whether Saddam possessing WMD was sufficient justification to go to war. Most Democrats started opposing the war when it became clear the necessary effort was mammothly undersized and they saw the politics of the war changing.

That having been said, I come from a traditional conservative perspective and am opposed to the war in the mode of Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul (which means I don’t engage in the lies, hyperbole, distortion, and exaggeration the left uses to oppose the war). I like to tweak my liberal friends by saying that the problem with Bush is that he is too liberal, but that is another topic.

 

[Grateful4mercy]

Nobody remembers UN Res 1441?

Resolution 1441 specifically stated:

That Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq’s breaches related not only to Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops in 1991.

That this represented Iraq’s final opportunity to comply with disarmament requirements. In accordance with the previous Resolutions, this meant Iraq not only had to verify the existence or destruction of its remaining unaccounted-for WMD stockpiles, but also had to ensure that all equipment, plans, and materials useful for the resumption of WMD programs was likewise turned over or verified as destroyed.

That “…false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations”.

So, the UN lied to the world about the WMD’s and owes the US a huge apology for causing us so much pain. How fortunate that they didn’t have to get blood on their OWN hands for this. Then again, I remember Somalia went swimmingly under the UN banner, maybe it’s better if they just stick to laundering money and let those with the will and means do the dirty work.

 

[Yerusalyim]

GRACE…excellent post.

MONTALBAN

Yes, it is. Under International Law - the UN never sanctioned this war

The United States does NOT need permission of the UnUnited Nationals to wage war…besides, as Grace pointed out…read Resolution 1441.

Indeed, but the power of Congress ends at the US border - or do you suppose that Congress has the power to legislate beyond itself?

The United States Constitution says Congress has the authority to declare war…which they did…the constitution still is the governing document of the United States.

That then was up to the UN. Imagine if you would you’re watching a football game. The referee may be missing some important calls. It’s not up to you to storm onto the field and push the referee off and start running the game. That’s what the US did in relation to the UN - pretended that they were championing something the UN didn’t ask for.

Your analogy isn’t analogous at all…this is NOT a football game…we’re talking about a rogue nation…for your analogy to work the team representing Saddam would have to be murdering not only other players, but the people in the stands and those passing by on the street as well, the the referees would be politely saying…no…please don’t do that or I’ll pass a resolution saying you probably shouldn’t do that.

So your excuse is that you’ve no evidence of them so they must still be around?

There’s no evidence they were destoryed…where are they…the UN Inspectors got most of their information for the numbers of Saddam’s WMD from Saddam’s records…so…I ask again…as the Inspectors were…where are the WMD that are not accounted for?

The activity of US depleted Uranium shells from the first Gulf War is a known factor for causing birth defects

Except that I was NO WHERE NEAR the depleted uranium shells that were used…over 150 miles away…but I was in the direct line of the down wind drift of bombed chemical stores and chemical weapons factories…my unit’s chemical detectors went off several times…and let’s not forget, the other proof of Saddam’s possession of Chemical Weapons is the death of thousands of his own citizens from his use of it to crush rebellion…not to mention the countless Iranians that were poisoned by his chems.

 

[Yerusalyim]

Based on US intelligence telling them so.

If you believe that you’re not as intelligent as I’ve given you credit for…the UK, the Russians, the UN’s own intell folks based upon independent evidence believe Saddam possessed WMD.

SO you’ve either discovered ‘some’ or ‘none’. Make up your mind

I’ve made up my mind…we did find both Illegal Weapons and WMD…but on the WMD it wasn’t in quantity…again…EVERYBODY said Saddam had them…so…where did they go…and does their disappearance have anything at all to do with the months of delay by the UN and the convoys that went into Syria from Iraq before the war.

There’s no doubt that Cheney and others are making vast fortunes from this illegal war

Really? Where’s the proof of this? How has Cheney made vast fortunes from the quite legitimate war? You do realize, don’t you, that the President and Vice President, along with most Senators, have their money held in blind trusts that they do not control, and that Cheney had no interests in Haliburton when elected as VP…you do know that…right? So how is he making “vast fortunes?”

Like the missing WMDs your ‘evidence’ is simple speculation

So, explain how life becomes better for Iraqis when the extremists take over…explain how Iraq does not become a haven for terrorists?

bought from successive US governments. When he poisoned the Kurds, he was a US ally.

Actually, that’s not true…we sold him no chemical weapons at all. He was sold some of the equipment to do so, but almost all of it was dual use equipment.

He was indeed a terrorist. Like Norriega in central america, he was long a US supporter. When you no longer need such you fein shock and horror at all the things they do.

Like Noriega, Saddam was never a supporter of the US…they both used us to our own purposes (and to our shame, we did the same).

Then leave the UN

From your lips to God’s ears…the UN is one of the most worthless organizations in the universe and leaving would save us BILLIONS a year.

That’s up to the UN. You can’t both be a member and claim to support collective action and then cry like a baby when you don’t get things your own way.

My complaint is that while spending billions every year the organization is utterly worthless…I’m all for pulling out…and kicking them out of NYC…they need the buildings for housing.

More blame-shifting

So, you’re quite willing to blame the US, but when others have even greater culpability…you choose to ignore it…are you a member of the UN?

See above re: my analogy about thugs that come into your house.

As before, your analogy isn’t analogous…somehow I think that’s lost on you though. Again, the straight forward question…like it or not the US (and other nations) are in Iraq…until someone comes up with a way to stabalize Iraq even with a US withdrawl, we have to stay there.

 

[LutheranDK]

I’m asking this question because I know that some of you believe that existence of independent Israel is necessary for the second coming of Jesus. Do you think that this is right to start war and shed blood just to keep Israel safe ? Are you proud that protestant Bush decided to attack Iraq?

I am proud that the country in which I am a citizen (Denmark) participated in the liberation of Iraq, yes.
I believe the decision was not only justifiable, but a moral nescessity (sorry the typo - I’m ESL). Saddam Hussein had been allowed to opress and murder his own people long enough.
Our mistake was not that we invaded Iraq; our mistake was that we didn’t commit enough troops.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think pulling out would be the dumbest thing we can do. As long as the terrorists are coming there to fight our professional troops and are dying at rates proportionally in our favor, keep up the fight. The alternative, is leaving the terrorist alone to plain and carrying out the next 911 on US soil. Either we fight them there with trained troops, or we fight them at home where civilians are the targets. I also, think we need to invest more in the NEST program stateside to stop any possible nuclear attacks on US soil. If we pull out of iraq, the terrorist will murder those who were cooperating with us, take over iraq and have those resources to build and deliver nuclear weapons to attack the US and other non-muslim countries.

Besides, you have better odds of being killed in Washington DC, then a troop has of being killed or injured in Iraq – at least that is what I am hearing in the news.

 

[onmywayagain]

Very constructive!

Thank you.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m not Protestant. I am a Soldier in the US Army, and Catholic. I disagree with the reasons for this war. I did at one time favor this war but when I realized that the reason behind was was a lie, I did not favor it. Despit this, the US government tell me to go somewhere I go. Whether I like it or not. Hopefully, this will be the last deployment since I will be getting out within a year, and going to Pre-Theology and then Seminary, and if God willing, become a priest in the Archdiocese of PA.

 

[Montalban]

If you believe that you’re not as intelligent as I’ve given you credit for…the UK, the Russians, the UN’s own intell folks based upon independent evidence believe Saddam possessed WMD.

Certainly at one stage they had some - they bought them from the USA. Did they *still *have them? They’ve not found them. Based on this fact I’d say they didn’t still have them. For you the lack of evidence means that they did!

Really? Where’s the proof of this? How has Cheney made vast fortunes from the quite legitimate war?

Halliburton

You do realize, don’t you, that the President and Vice President, along with most Senators, have their money held in blind trusts that they do not control, and that Cheney had no interests in Haliburton when elected as VP…you do know that…right? So how is he making “vast fortunes?”

Deferred compensation and stock options

So, explain how life becomes better for Iraqis when the extremists take over

Better in what way? You’re imposing your idea of better, and you weren’t concerned for the decades Sadaam was in power?

…explain how Iraq does not become a haven for terrorists?

Well it just must become one! Appeal to incredulity! No terrorists in Pakistan? Obviously not!

Actually, that’s not true…we sold him no chemical weapons at all. He was sold some of the equipment to do so, but almost all of it was dual use equipment.

He was still an ally when he poisoned Kurds

Like Noriega, Saddam was never a supporter of the US…they both used us to our own purposes (and to our shame, we did the same).

LOL! Those sneaky men! Saddam was your ALLY! And Regan sold arms to both Iran and Iraq
Sure you’re not Ferengi?
Rules of Acquisition
34. War is good for business.
35. Peace is good for business.

From your lips to God’s ears…the UN is one of the most worthless organizations in the universe and leaving would save us BILLIONS a year.

Then do it. The US has citizens whinging about it for decades

My complaint is that while spending billions every year the organization is utterly worthless…I’m all for pulling out…and kicking them out of NYC…they need the buildings for housing.
So, you’re quite willing to blame the US, but when others have even greater culpability…you choose to ignore it…are you a member of the UN?

Me personally? I thought only organisations could be members, I could be wrong.
Look at Jordan, he’s got his own seat!*

As before, your analogy isn’t analogous…somehow I think that’s lost on you though. Again, the straight forward question…like it or not the US (and other nations) are in Iraq…until someone comes up with a way to stabalize Iraq even with a US withdrawl, we have to stay there.

It’s quite appropriate.

You have a long-standing ally of the USA whom the US sold weapons to, and he used WMDs on his own citizens. US is so concerned it continues to do business with him, and then sells weapons to Iran. All to add to the stability of the region? Then, the US claims to support the UN but when the rules don’t go it’s way it storms into Iraq to impose its own sense of a ‘fair system’ on this country it helped destroy!

*-homage to Borat

 

[Montalban]

Thank you.

You’re most welcome Your argument was so convincing!

 

[Montalban]

I’m not Protestant. I am a Soldier in the US Army, and Catholic. I disagree with the reasons for this war. I did at one time favor this war but when I realized that the reason behind was was a lie, I did not favor it. Despit this, the US government tell me to go somewhere I go. Whether I like it or not. Hopefully, this will be the last deployment since I will be getting out within a year, and going to Pre-Theology and then Seminary, and if God willing, become a priest in the Archdiocese of PA.

I wish you well

 

[Yerusalyim]

Stupid Internet, I spent a half hour answering this nonsense, clicked SUBMIT, and lost it all.

Certainly at one stage they had some - they bought them from the USA. Did they *still *have them? They’ve not found them. Based on this fact I’d say they didn’t still have them. For you the lack of evidence means that they did!

Againj, Saddam bought no Chemical Weapons from the US…however, YES, if Saddam’s own records showed he had WMD and the whole world agreed with those records, and then Saddam shows no proof of having destroyed those weapons…then he still has them somewhere…you trust a guy like Hussein?

Halliburton

From the seventh basement of Heaven…Halliburton the boogey man.

Deferred compensation and stock options

Once again, here are the FACTS…Cheney retired from the company during the 2000 U.S. presidential election campaign As of 2004, he had received $398,548 in deferred compensation from Halliburton, however, before entering office in 2001, Cheney bought an insurance policy that guaranteed a fixed amount of deferred payments from Halliburton each year for five years so that the payments would not depend on the company’s fortunes. RE THE STOCK OPTIONS: He is legally bound by an agreement he signed which turns over power of attorney to a trust administrator to sell the options at some future time and to give the after-tax profits to three charities. The agreement states that it is “irrevocable and may not be terminated, waived or amended,” preventing Cheney from taking back the options at a later date…big bad Cheney…funny, he gives more of his income in charities than the bleeding hearts like Gore and Clinton.

Better in what way? You’re imposing your idea of better, and you weren’t concerned for the decades Sadaam was in power?

Actually, I was concerned…better now because they have the hope of a better future.

Well it just must become one! Appeal to incredulity! No terrorists in Pakistan? Obviously not!

There are terrorists in Pakistan, but not ones supported by the state.

He was still an ally when he poisoned Kurds

Not really

LOL! Those sneaky men! Saddam was your ALLY! And Regan sold arms to both Iran and Iraq Sure you’re not Ferengi?
Rules of Acquisition
34. War is good for business.
35. Peace is good for business.

Yes indeed, Capitalists find an opportunity in whatever conditions to make money…that’s their job…that’s WHY they are called Capitalists…all things being equal, PEACE IS BEST for profit…but no, I’m not Ferengi, I’m Catholic…The selling some weapons (but no WMD) to both was a failed attempt to contain both.

Then do it. The US has citizens whinging about it for decades

I’d LOVE TO.

Me personally? I thought only organisations could be members, I could be wrong.
Look at Jordan, he’s got his own seat!*

Silly

It’s quite appropriate

.No, it’s not, no where do you mention the fans in the stands or by-passers in the street being murdered…so, your analogy in not analogous.

You have a long-standing ally of the USA whom the US sold weapons to, and he used WMDs on his own citizens. US is so concerned it continues to do business with him, and then sells weapons to Iran. All to add to the stability of the region?

I’m not defending the policy that was used to try to contain both Iraq and Iran from dominating the world oil supply…but it worked.

Then, the US claims to support the UN but when the rules don’t go it’s way it storms into Iraq to impose its own sense of a ‘fair system’ on this country it helped destroy!:

And pre Iraq war how exactly is it the US helped destroy Iraq? As to the UN, that organization dedicated to world peace that does more to create strife in the world than most nations do…to **** with the UN.

*-homage to Borat

Quite appropriate, paying honor to an imaginary character, much like the imaginary perfect world the liberals live in…we live in the REAL WORLD with REAL PROBLEMS…I hear complaints, but no offers of solutions.

Tell ya what, let us soldiers decide if we want to stay in Iraq until it’s done right…most will say yes.

 

[bobzills]

The war was started to keep Iraq from developing and deploying weapons of mass destruction.

Not according to Alan Greenspan. He is quoted as saying that the Iraq war was really for oil.
gnn.tv/headlines/15423/Shocker_Alan_Greenspan_claims_Iraq_war_was_really_for_oil