Protestants what is a sin unto death?

[Linkowski]

Guanophore…and all. Interpretation nothing! What does it say!!!

1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Why is it that you cannot see that this mortal sin does not apply to those who have been born again!???!!???

 

[mercygate]

Short answer is the one sin Jesus Christ could not die for. The rejection of Christ Pardon abtained on the cross.

Whoa! Cool! Protestants and Catholics singing the same song about “sin unto death!”

Catholics say that the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit is final unrepentance and despair of God’s mercy. Same song, different verse!

However, we also believe that actual sins against the Commandments can be mortal: again, that *is *unrepented sin, of course – because it is by repentance that we accept the Pardon of the Cross.

 

[Linkowski]

Whoa! Cool! Protestants and Catholics singing the same song about “sin unto death!”

Catholics say that the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit is final unrepentance and despair of God’s mercy. Same song, different verse!

However, we also believe that actual sins against the Commandments can be mortal: again, that *is *unrepented sin, of course – because it is by repentance that we accept the Pardon of the Cross.

There are no mortal sins other that a complete and total falling away without repentance. In the context of mortal sin, it is exclaimed that those who have been born again cannot commit this sin. There is no other mention of mortal sin the way you are describing it.

“Mortal sin” can only be commited by the unsaved who learn of the truth and reject it.

 

[mercygate]

There are no mortal sins other that a complete and total falling away without repentance. In the context of mortal sin, it is exclaimed that those who have been born again cannot commit this sin. There is no other mention of mortal sin the way you are describing it.

The MATTER of a sin may indeed be mortal by virtue of its gravity as a violation of a God-given precept (the wages of sin is death).

If I take out a gun and blow your brains out, I have committed a a sin against the direct commandment of God. Moreover, you are dead as a doornail, and there is no way to fix it. The act, taken in itself is OBJECTIVELY a deadly sin under the divine and natural moral law. The fact that I am a schizophrenic and thought you were Darth Vader, and killing you was going to save the world, mitigates the “deadliness” of the sin by mitigating my SUBJECTIVE culpability.

That’s one scenario.

The second is that I kill you in a premeditated act of malice but repent of it sincerely. Penitence restores my relationship with Christ – and maybe with you, since having reached your predestined and absolutely irrevocable appointment with the Godhead, you are in a state of perfect charity, and actually thank me for sending you Home.

Of course, if I do not repent, even your forgiveness cannot spare me the natural consequences of my final impenitence. Final impenitence* IS* the sin against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Linkowski]

The MATTER of a sin may indeed be mortal by virtue of its gravity as a violation of a God-given precept (the wages of sin is death).

If I take out a gun and blow your brains out, I have committed a a sin against the direct commandment of God. Moreover, you are dead as a doornail, and there is no way to fix it. The act, taken in itself is OBJECTIVELY a deadly sin under the divine and natural moral law. The fact that I am a schizophrenic and thought you were Darth Vader, and killing you was going to save the world, mitigates the “deadliness” of the sin by mitigating my SUBJECTIVE culpability.

That’s one scenario.

The second is that I kill you in a premeditated act of malice but repent of it sincerely. Penitence restores my relationship with Christ – and maybe with you, since having reached your predestined and absolutely irrevocable appointment with the Godhead, you are in a state of perfect charity, and actually thank me for sending you Home.

Of course, if I do not repent, even your forgiveness cannot spare me the natural consequences of my final impenitence. Final impenitence* IS* the sin against the Holy Spirit.

That is an interesting scencario (although my scripture passage pointing out the context of mortal sin does not get addressed - continually in every thread that I have brought it up in)…ANYWAY…

Either you never were saved… (the likely case)

1John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

3Jo 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

1John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

OR…
You are saved and will remain saved…forever. I will also argue that the one who IS saved WILL repent. David did not have to get re-justified. Your relationship is severed, yes, but not from a saved/non-saved standpoint. You might also get chastisement from the Father as well (Heb 12). But, you do not LOSE salvation and then get it back. Nowhere in scripture is there reference to an interruption in salvation/justification and it has to be redone. Nowhere!

Hypothetical situations just do not help…we need to see what the scriptures say.

 

[Philthy]

Guanophore…and all. Interpretation nothing! What does it say!!!

17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Why is it that you cannot see that this mortal sin does not apply to those who have been born again!???!!???

One reason is that such a concept doesn’t gel with the rest of Scripture. Paul clearly taught that idolaters, fornicators, drunkards, etc will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven. No symbolic rambling, no vague references to unknown sins, etc. Very simple, very clear - Don’t be decieved: you cannot persist in these sins and go to Heaven.
Another reason is that the condition “one who **IS **born of God” does not, of necessity, imply that the person will REMAIN born of God - and therefore, the promise of “He who WAS born of God” (why the different tense?) will keep him no longer applies.
Lastly consider this verse again:
1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death.
How confusing can you get? For starters, is the “brother” a Christian at this point or not? We can only assume not, since we are later told that “one who is born of God does not sin”, right? Yet we are then told that the non-Christian “brother” who commits a non-mortal sin will be given “life” by virtue of the fact that the Christian has prayed to God in the sinner’s behalf. Are you on board with that Link? Catholics have room for such a concept in their theology, but do you? If not, I’m afraid you can’t really comment on the rest of John’s letter with any credibility. Be honest - John is confusing and to try and extrapolate deep theologies from this is a recipe for error. To accuse others with intentionally “not seeing what it says” is hypocritical and vain.
Stick with the simple conclusions: some sin is not “deadly” and some sin is. John didnt bother to go into the details probably because they were better discussed face to face. Paul went into the details - there are lots of sins which, if not repented from, preclude admission to the kindom of Heaven.

 

[Philthy]

Either you never were saved… (the likely case)

1John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

3Jo 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

1John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

OR…
You are saved and will remain saved…forever. I will also argue that the one who IS saved WILL repent.

How, exactly, is this any different than telling people “you need to repent to be saved”? Remember, we are operating in time - we face trials and must make moral decisions and must act upon them. What good is it to say, “If your saved you will repent”? That is a useless piece of information. It’s only use IMHO is to defend your theology.

Link:

You might also get chastisement from the Father as well (Heb 12).

This is bogus. Paul specifically describes the sufferings of this world as NOTHING compared to life in Christ. It is an idle threat Linkowski, to claim chastisement from the Father, but again it is a necessary conclusion to defend your theology.

Link:

But, you do not LOSE salvation and then get it back. Nowhere in scripture is there reference to an interruption in salvation/justification and it has to be redone. Nowhere!

Perhaps it is not that it requires redoing - it requires completion.

Link:

Hypothetical situations just do not help…we need to see what the scriptures say.

Multiple, ambiguous conclusions from alleged copies of the original Scriptures testified to only by mere men do not help - what we need is the Truth.

 

[Philthy]

There are no mortal sins other that a complete and total falling away without repentance. In the context of mortal sin, it is exclaimed that those who have been born again cannot commit this sin.

Actually the verse says that those who ARE born of God will not commit the sin, not those who **HAVE BEEN. **I know that your theology prevents you from seeing a difference, but John used ARE born of God in reference to humans, WAS born of God to refer to Jesus. Just take a look at the verses you quoted from 1 John.
The reason I bring it up is that, unfortunately, those who ARE born of God might become dead in sin if they do not stay awake and remain in Christ; this would happen through deliberate, mortal sin. As Paul says,

1Cr 6:10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now what good is it to preach this to the saved? They dont benefit from it in OSAS
What good is it to preach it to the reprobate? They dont benefit from it in OSAS

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Or

“All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.”

John adds this because even though God forgives sin, that does not mean sin is acceptable. The word unrighteousness literally means “lawlessness,” which is rebellion against God. Even though God forgives sin, it is still violating His law. Verse 17 ends by saying, “There is a sin not unto death.” Compare that with verse 16: “There is a sin unto death.” What kind of sin would bring death? There are two kinds of sin in the Bible:

1.Sins of passion

There is the sin that is against the will but occurs in a moment of weakness. It is associated with strong temptation, but not premeditated. It is not plotted out nor deliberately planned. It is illustrated in Romans 7, where Paul said, “The good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do” (v. 19). When someone commits that kind of sin, they are grieved, so they repent and turn from it.

1. Sins of premeditation

The second kind of sin is deliberate and premeditated. It is possible for Christians to commit that kind of sin. This is where you sit down and plan in detail. Every time you do it and get away with it, it gets easier and easier. You avoided the consequences once, maybe twice, even three or four times, and it becomes a pattern. This is the kind of sin that tends toward death. It is the prolonged and continued defiant, premeditated sinfulness that brings about ultimate discipline–physical death.

biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg2117.htm

I concur.

I always understood it as a true Born Again Christian CONTINUING in sin even after he has a contriet heart and has been chastised. Death will come to the Christian.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Actually the verse says that those who ARE born of God will not commit the sin, not those who **HAVE BEEN. **I know that your theology prevents you from seeing a difference, but John used ARE born of God in reference to humans, WAS born of God to refer to Jesus. Just take a look at the verses you quoted from 1 John.
The reason I bring it up is that, unfortunately, those who ARE born of God might become dead in sin if they do not stay awake and remain in Christ; this would happen through deliberate, mortal sin. As Paul says,

1Cr 6:10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now what good is it to preach this to the saved? They dont benefit from it in OSAS
What good is it to preach it to the reprobate? They dont benefit from it in OSAS

A true Born Again Christian cannot commit blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[Philthy]

There are no mortal sins other that a complete and total falling away without repentance. In the context of mortal sin, it is exclaimed that those who have been born again cannot commit this sin. There is no other mention of mortal sin the way you are describing it.

“Mortal sin” can only be commited by the unsaved who learn of the truth and reject it.

Ah, but now its my turn to cry, " But what does the Scripture SAY?

"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word … receives it with joy; yet … when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word…he falls away."

Mat 13:21 Mat 13:22

 

[Linkowski]

Ah, but now its my turn to cry, " But what does the Scripture SAY?

"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word … receives it with joy; yet … when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word…he falls away."

Mat 13:21 Mat 13:22

:banghead:

 

[Philthy]

:banghead:

:banghead:

 

[Philthy]

A true Born Again Christian cannot commit blasphamy against the Holy Spirit.

Without disputing the validity of the claim I would like to know the usefulness of it - what differenced does it make?

 

[Teflon93]

Without disputing the validity of the claim I would like to know the usefulness of it - what differenced does it make?

No difference.

Look at how many pastors have claimed to be born again, sinned mightily by any standard, and rather than be drummed out by the flock (since they were clearly not truly born again) they simply become “born again” again.

Jim Bakker. Oral Roberts. Etc.

BTW, check out Robert Duvall’s movie “The Apostle” if you get the chance. It provides excellent insight into how Protestant churches get formed and what happens when pastors mortally sin.

And yes, it is a movie, not a documentary, so flame off please.

Another good resource is “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”, written by one of the interventionists on “Intervention”.

There is no end to the misery caused when a pastor maintaining once saved, always saved then sins before the flock. It necessarily causes one to question one’s faith, since clearly they had been deceived.

 

[guanophore]

“As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word … receives it with joy; yet … when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word…he falls away.”

:banghead:

Are you knocking sense into yourself?

If one “receives the word with joy” then a person has taken it in, experientiallly. Such a one recognizes the truth of the word, and attaches to it(Him). You can’t “fall away” from something that you were never hanging onto in the first place!

Col 1:21-23
21 And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul is addressing “saved” persons here -those who have been reconciled. PROVIDED they continue, and not shifting. Failure to continue and shifting from the truth are things that are under a persons control. If Paul believed in OSAS , why did he not say “you will persevere?”. Why would he say not to shift away, if it were not possible to shift away? Or, do you deny that those reconciled in his body of flesh by His death are really saved?

However, I want to talk about other sins, besides the rejection of the HS that lead unto death.

 

[guanophore]

1 John 1:7-9
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. "

You say that the believer does not sin, because God prevents him from sinning. John says that if we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves.

Paul is writing to the believers in Corinth:

1 Cor 5:1-2
5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

1 Cor 5:4-5
When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What does this mean? He will still be saved, even though he has sinned, or that he was never saved to begin with? Or that this sin is not unto death?

 

[corrgc]

Linkowski;2410927:

Paul is writing to the believers in Corinth:

1 Cor 5:1-2
5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

1 Cor 5:4-5
When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What does this mean? He will still be saved, even though he has sinned, or that he was never saved to begin with? Or that this sin is not unto death?

Greetings All,

I stumbled across your discussion and thought I’d ask something that seems to be an underlying point in the discussion. It is something I have trouble understanding about “once saved, always saved”.

From what I understand, All of Paul’s letters are written to believers (possibly even the additional letters alluded to, but not part of scripture); to established Churches or elders (with the exception of Philemon). Why then would he bother discussing sin or wrongdoings in the various churches? He appears to be addressing direct issues, not teachings points to be used in evangelization.

If they were all SAVED by thier belief alone, then why condemn them for their sin? What did their sin matter, as long as it was not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

If the answer is - because there were unsaved among the saved, then how do you tell the difference between the saved and unsaved if their works play no part?

Thank you for your assistance.

Sincerely in Christ,
Corrgc

 

[mikeledes]

Let’s take a look at several verses from Galatians:

Galatians 1:6

**6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; **

Galatians 3:3

**3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? **

Galatians 4:8

**8However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? **

Galatians 5:1-4

**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. **

The Galatians had wandered from the truth by deserting the One who called them. Let me add a related verse:

James 5:19-20

19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Straying from the truth endangers a persons soul. Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is a serious matter that has eternal consequences. Now the “separated from the love of God” verse has been used a lot by our Protestant brothers in this thread. However, Galatians 5:4 states that the Galatians in question were “severed from Christ” and have “fallen from grace.” This is similar to another verse:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

To continue in God’s kindness is to continue in His grace. If we have fallen from grace, we have been cut off, severed from Christ. If one has fallen from grace, there can be no salvation for one cannot be saved without grace. That is why John 15:6 states:

6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Notice the order of events. The branch is thrown away (i.e. cut off), “dries up” (i.e. dies) and is cast into the fire. The branch dries up because it has been caught off from its source of life (i.e. the Vine). A person cut off/ severed from Christ the Vine is also cut off from the source of life and his/her end is the eternal fire. That is why John urges the Christian community to abide in Christ:

1 John 2:28

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

They shrink away in shame because they know they will experience everlasting shame.

Therefore, the situation of the Galatians is very serious and has grave eternal consequences. According to the OSAS doctrine as understood by Protestants, such a situation is impossible. A true Christian can never really fall from grace, be severed from
Christ, or desert him. Such a person was never saved to begin with. Looking at the general profile of the Galatians based on the first couple of verses I gave, they were genuinely saved.

Also, righteous David committed the grievous sins of adultery and murder, sins that God explicitly state that will exclude you from the kingdom of God, and righteous Solomon committed the grievous sin of idolatry, turning His heart away from God. These are considered “mortal sins” by the Bible, sins that will exclude a person from inheriting the kingdom of God and they were committed by righteous men.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Hebrews 6:4-4 and Hebrews 10:26-32 were inspired by the Holy Spirit for the express reason of countering the OSAS heresy.

The people in both of these passages are saved and yes then they are lost.

Not to mentioned the fact that Abraham in Genesis is justified or saved on 3 different occasions Proving the fact tghat OSAS was then–is now–and will always be false!

An who lies to promote OSAS the most? Can you say Satan?

If Satan can get anyone to Presume againsty the Holy Spirit that they are already saved then he is happy because they can die in that state of mortal sin and spend eternity in Hell with him!

Not to mention that if OSAS really was true then there would be absolutely No Reason of for Paul to command us to “Work out our salvation with fear and trembling”!