Protestants: What is the oddest thing about Catholicism?

[mercygate]

I always like to read children/youngg adult books because they are written in simple language… and i guess i am a simpleton…

Shhhhhh. One of the best kept secrets of us really smart people is knowing that when you want a fast-and-dirty introduction you don’t know much about, you slink over to the young adult section of the public library and check out a couple of those books. I know a Princeton PhD who does this also.

 

[MrS]

mercygate…

Just curious, you said you recognized the need for adult religious ed, but put your efforts into the kids instead.

Not that this is anything but a good thing… but we probably agree that without the parents picking up the slack of the other 6 days, your one day a week could be frustrating.

Which leads to this:

I think one of the odd things about Catholics is that many recognize the need for continuing education for the adults (who mostly have a 4-5th grade theology level)… yet we settle for

minimal CCD/Religious Ed,
6-9 months of RCIA with little or no follow-up,
scattered Bible studies,
greatly reduced apologetics in the seminaries,
some parishes weak in marriage and baptismal prep,
etc

wassup with that?

No wonder many converts make the most zealous Catholics…

dey done got some edgykatin ba4 dey done got convorted.

.

 

[sires6]

I guess one odd thing for me is how many “liberal Catholics” there are. Since I always associated Catholicism with more conservative positions, particularly in regards to moral issues, it surprised me when I met a fair amount of liberal Catholics. I know there are liberal people in all denominations, but it just seems particularly odd for Catholicism.

when I “crossed the Tiber”, one of the things that really drove me batty is KNOWING what the church teaches and has taught for years (centuries) and hearing all those goofball orgs like womenpriests that say they are Roman Catholic BUT want to go against the teaching of the Church! “Call” and all those far out there just drive me NUTS!

Can we just for them to put warning labels on their web sites: We’re not really Roman Catholics, we just call ourselves that!

 

[mercygate]

mercygate…

Just curious, you said you recognized the need for adult religious ed, but put your efforts into the kids instead.

Not that this is anything but a good thing… but we probably agree that without the parents picking up the slack of the other 6 days, your one day a week could be frustrating.

Which leads to this:

I think one of the odd things about Catholics is that many recognize the need for continuing education for the adults (who mostly have a 4-5th grade theology level)… yet we settle for

minimal CCD/Religious Ed,
6-9 months of RCIA with little or no follow-up,
scattered Bible studies,
greatly reduced apologetics in the seminaries,
some parishes weak in marriage and baptismal prep,
etc

wassup with that?

No wonder many converts make the most zealous Catholics…

dey done got some edgykatin ba4 dey done got convorted.

.

One of the reasons I am teaching the kids is that 1) there’s still hope for them, 2) management LETS me teach the kids, and 3) they let me get away with teaching heavy-duty orthodoxy because it is hard to get people to sign up for this duty.

Now, it is true that I have a supportive DRE, and that helps, but how far would I get in a roomful of those 4th-to-5th-grade-educated adults who would be buzzing at me like a bunch of wild hornets for teaching the orthodox position on confession, Mass attendance, contraception . . . ???

 

[MrS]

One of the reasons I am teaching the kids is that 1) there’s still hope for them, 2) management LETS me teach the kids, and 3) they let me get away with teaching heavy-duty orthodoxy because it is hard to get people to sign up for this duty.

Now, it is true that I have a supportive DRE, and that helps, but how far would I get in a roomful of those 4th-to-5th-grade-educated adults who would be buzzing at me like a bunch of wild hornets for teaching the orthodox position on confession, Mass attendance, contraception . . . ???

Been there, done that. You might be suprised how even more hungry for truth the adults really are.

If you have the same extremely high level of humility that I do , you might consider an occasional class with the parents of your kids… under the guise of encouraging them to support what the kids are learning.

I found that they then were not treated like the 4-5th grade theologians that many of them are.

.

 

[mercygate]

Been there, done that. You might be suprised how even more hungry for truth the adults really are.

If you have the same extremely high level of humility that I do , you might consider an occasional class with the parents of your kids… under the guise of encouraging them to support what the kids are learning.

I found that they then were not treated like the 4-5th grade theologians that many of them are.

.

Heh, heh. I have a sign-up sheet for parents at the beginning of the year, so that they will attend at least one class. It kills two birds with one stone. I get an adult body in the room, which helps for discipline (except when the parent is WORSE than the kid – which is more often than you might think) and it exposes them to what’s going on in my class “because I am accountable to you”. I BEG them to come to my class.

 

[slo2lurn]

carjack said

i never said it wasn’t human, I said it wasn’t a “person” until it was born. Never said it wasn’t alive

according to dictionary defenition of “person”

1. a human being, whether man, woman, or child.
2. human being as distinguished from an animal or a thing.

 

[distracted]

Shhhhhh. One of the best kept secrets of us really smart people is knowing that when you want a fast-and-dirty introduction you don’t know much about, you slink over to the young adult section of the public library and check out a couple of those books. I know a Princeton PhD who does this also.

Now i feel so much better. Thanks.

 

[distracted]

Yikes…tough call

counter-scriptural, excessive authority that the Bishop of Rome has taken upon himself.
I think that is the thing that’s hardest to understand.

Then would follow the veneration of Mary and the saints, who I percieve to be rolemodels, very much so, but not people that can intervene on our behalf. I also think that the practise has come dangerously close to necromancy, calling upon the dead.

Jesus made Peter the head of the earthly Church… the 1st pope… he does not take this “upon himself”… But i can understand your hesitancy about that… because sometimes… well, only on one issue… I think he is… not so much wrong… but… well, it is a long story… Right now i have limited time…

Mary is importnat… esp for those of us who had an imperfect mother… The saints are our friends, they used to be on this road to Heaven… can relate to us, sympathize with us… The world certainly doesn’t sympathize w/ Christians… esp Catholics… St. Jude is esp helpful to me… Calling upon the dead?? No, far from it… For one thing, they are far from “dead”… they are in Heaven… We are calling on Heaven when we call on those who live there… Necromancy is calling spirits from Hell… who masquerade as dead relatives…

 

[distracted]

I guess one odd thing for me is how many “liberal Catholics” there are. Since I always associated Catholicism with more conservative positions, particularly in regards to moral issues, it surprised me when I met a fair amount of liberal Catholics. I know there are liberal people in all denominations, but it just seems particularly odd for Catholicism.

I am SO glad you brought this up…

I have such a hard problem with liberal “Catholics” myself… I used to not even want to call them Catholic, but someone kinda set me straight on that… (I think??)… I guess you can be a bad Catholic but once Catholic, Always Catholic?? I don’t know… i have to admit, still somewhat …

Anyway, i heard that only 30% of Catholics believe in Transubstantiation & the same % believe in natural birth control (only)… So… well, in my opinion, there are very few real Catholics around, apparently… (assuming those stats are true… i don’t trust statistics… or those collecting them, dispensing them to the public…).

 

[Adam14]

Jesus made Peter the head of the earthly Church… the 1st pope… he does not take this “upon himself”… …

I agree with what you’re saying here. I totally believe that the church should have a leader, and I see how/why Catholics believe Peter was made the earthly head of the church(Pope). But where my disagreement comes in is, when the Pope decides for millions and millions of Catholics what is wrong and right…ie…how “not so black and white” parts of scripture is to be interpreted, what marriages are considered valid, what confessions are considered valid, etc. Don’t get me wrong though, I don’t have anything against the Pope at all, but I too question some of the authority he has and filters down to the Priests. Leadership is one thing, acting on behalf of God is another…for example…my sins are not forgiven because a priest didn’t say there were? This is probably the main reason I’m not Catholic. I’ll get slammed for saying this, but I see the Pope as a great represenative for Christianity(especially John Paul II), but the Pope in my opinion is a human, just like me, who needs to be forgiven for sins, just like me, who makes mistakes, just like me, who is a child of God, just like me. I mean no disrespect, I just have a hard time seeing where this authority is the Pope’s…

 

[joyfulseraph]

Well, currently…mortal vs. venial sin & that if you commit a mortal sin, if you die without confessing it you will go to hell.

 

[mercygate]

Well, currently…mortal vs. venial sin & that if you commit a mortal sin, if you die without confessing it you will go to hell.

Detail: If you die UNREPENTANT you will go to hell. If you are contrite and suffer sudden death, intending to come to confession and receive the NORMAL MEANS by which sins are forgiven, neither the Lord nor the Church will hold it against you.

 

[Syele]

Please name the Number One thing you think is the hardest to believe about Catholicism. Thanks.

The oddest thing is a Church that claims to follow Jesus but yet has a disdain for fellowship permeating its very walls.

I attended Mass for 6 years at 3 different parishes. Other than when I had an actual meeting with the priest scheduled, and recited words spoken during the Mass no one ever said a word to me. There were no Bible Studies listed in the Bulletins, no hellos in the parking lot, nor fellowship potlucks nor even a “Welcome to Mass” out in the foyers.

To me the “One True Church” would be welcoming to people, would want to share the joy they had in Christ, Would want to study Gods Word together. Jesus did not Say a Mass with His followers and leave… He walked with them and ate with them and talked to the women and the non believers. And speaking of leaving… I also found it odd how many people were in a rush to barge out the door the min they had received the Eucharist! They were not displaying respect for God OR Love for their neighbors.

yeah yeah I know all the pat answers. “Catholics really do study scripture”, “the Bible is Catholic”, “My my focus is on the Lord and worship not socializing” (note Im not talking about ‘just socializing’), “Mass is for Prayer”, “The preist is too busy”

Ill even grant the occasional “Well MY parish has fellowship activities!” and even grant you “We have doughnuts!” But if I din’t find any when looking in 6 years… its gotta be uncommon. and Sorry, but getting your kid a doughnut for being good in Mass on the way out the door doesn’t count.

There are other things I cannot accept about Catholicism, but the “oddest” thing is a lack of displayed love for others.

 

[sires6]

I agree with what you’re saying here. I totally believe that the church should have a leader…

but the Pope in my opinion is a human, just like me, who needs to be forgiven for sins, just like me, who makes mistakes, just like me, who is a child of God, just like me. I mean no disrespect, I just have a hard time seeing where this authority is the Pope’s…

Ok, so you understand we must have a leader, but apparently you believe that the Church teaches that the Pope is perfect and therefore that is how he can teach or lead us over morals and have authority over us?.

Well, I hope you will understand and take to heart my poor poor teaching here.

The Catholic Church does not teach that the Pope is perfect. It teaches that the Holy Spirit, acting on it’s perfect Will and the promise that nothing will prevail against the church, protects the church and it’s teachings on morals and salvation.

We have had bad popes in the past, but never has a bad pope been allowed by the Holy Spirit to teach bad salvation. Like Honorius, although he preached Monotheism, he never *defined *the doctrine.

In 265 Popes in 2000 years we have had 3 or 4 alleged failures. If you considered all the Kings of England for less time than that, you will find far more loss, malice and more contradiction… we can even just look at any one century of History for problems…

the Pope himself is not anything more than a godly Man. Look at Pope John Paul II. Most people these days will say he was a godly man. Infallible means in most eyes perfect. In the Church’s eyes, he is perfect if God makes him perfect (called impeccability from peccare: to sin), but he can *ONLY *be infallible if he speaks when a particular doctrine has been called into question as the head of the Bishops of the Church and when all of them, even though dispersed, concur conclusively, even more so when gathered in a council. The Bishops (and the pope as the head of the bishops) speak as the teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. The Pope speaks in a special way because he is the head of the Church, and pronounces specially with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, assistance promised to him through Peter.

Infallibility is similar to the President helping to enact some defining Amendment to the Constitution, like anti-slavery. He doesn’t do this alone. The big difference is that the Constitution is not protected by the Holy Spirit and therefore we have had amendments like prohibition.

The other point in your objection is his authority. Papal authority was understood by the Early Church Fathers from the beginning with Peter in Rome. His laying on of hands, that is, passing his authority to another, in his case, to Linus and then from Linus to Cletus, shows this idea. Those looking to Clement for authority from Rome even though John, disciple of Christ and Apostle, was still alive and on Patmos at the time, shows that even the Apostles knew there had to be someone on whom the Authority fell. Christ did not just leave his people without a leader, anymore than the God of Israel left them without leaders in the Old Testament.

I hope this helps clear up some of the things that you were mistake on and will allow you to come closer to entering the Church.

 

[mercygate]

The oddest thing is a Church that claims to follow Jesus but yet has a disdain for fellowship permeating its very walls.

I attended Mass for 6 years at 3 different parishes. Other than when I had an actual meeting with the priest scheduled, and recited words spoken during the Mass no one ever said a word to me. There were no Bible Studies listed in the Bulletins, no hellos in the parking lot, nor fellowship potlucks nor even a “Welcome to Mass” out in the foyers.

To me the “One True Church” would be welcoming to people, would want to share the joy they had in Christ, Would want to study Gods Word together. Jesus did not Say a Mass with His followers and leave… He walked with them and ate with them and talked to the women and the non believers. And speaking of leaving… I also found it odd how many people were in a rush to barge out the door the min they had received the Eucharist! They were not displaying respect for God OR Love for their neighbors.

yeah yeah I know all the pat answers. “Catholics really do study scripture”, “the Bible is Catholic”, “My my focus is on the Lord and worship not socializing” (note Im not talking about ‘just socializing’), “Mass is for Prayer”, “The preist is too busy”

Ill even grant the occasional “Well MY parish has fellowship activities!” and even grant you “We have doughnuts!” But if I din’t find any when looking in 6 years… its gotta be uncommon. and Sorry, but getting your kid a doughnut for being good in Mass on the way out the door doesn’t count.

There are other things I cannot accept about Catholicism, but the “oddest” thing is a lack of displayed love for others.

It is true that in most Catholic parishes you have to work a little harder to find fellowship than you do in most protestant churches. But most Catholic churches are 10 times the size of most protestant churches. When I came into the Church, I took my first year of preparation before Confirmation in voluntary solitude. I took another year in what I dubbed my “cloistered novitiate” – again, though under spiritual direction, I deliberately did NOT get engaged in social or committee activities: just concentrated on God.

The third year, I signed up for a Cornerstone retreat – where I came in contact with 15 women with whom I am VERY close in fellowship and for practical application: work teams, support teams when somebody gets sick.

Yup: you usually have to go out and look for fellowship in Catholic parishes. We have our annual carnival this week. Everybody is BEGGED to get involved with that. I don’t do it, but that would sure be a place to bump chests and high-five with a lot of good ol’ boys (and gals). All ages work the fair. Half the county comes to the parish for that. Y’all come on down!

 

[carjack]

The oddest thing is a Church that claims to follow Jesus but yet has a disdain for fellowship permeating its very walls.

I attended Mass for 6 years at 3 different parishes. Other than when I had an actual meeting with the priest scheduled, and recited words spoken during the Mass no one ever said a word to me. There were no Bible Studies listed in the Bulletins, no hellos in the parking lot, nor fellowship potlucks nor even a “Welcome to Mass” out in the foyers.

To me the “One True Church” would be welcoming to people, would want to share the joy they had in Christ, Would want to study Gods Word together. Jesus did not Say a Mass with His followers and leave… He walked with them and ate with them and talked to the women and the non believers. And speaking of leaving… I also found it odd how many people were in a rush to barge out the door the min they had received the Eucharist! They were not displaying respect for God OR Love for their neighbors.

yeah yeah I know all the pat answers. “Catholics really do study scripture”, “the Bible is Catholic”, “My my focus is on the Lord and worship not socializing” (note Im not talking about ‘just socializing’), “Mass is for Prayer”, “The preist is too busy”

Ill even grant the occasional “Well MY parish has fellowship activities!” and even grant you “We have doughnuts!” But if I din’t find any when looking in 6 years… its gotta be uncommon. and Sorry, but getting your kid a doughnut for being good in Mass on the way out the door doesn’t count.

There are other things I cannot accept about Catholicism, but the “oddest” thing is a lack of displayed love for others.

I am having a hard time with this as well. I have been attending non-denominational services. I started attending Mass. I am a bit surprised of the lack of fellowship. I even convinced my husband to go and he stated that everyone had frowns up until the part when they left. Maybe I should try a different church. It may be hard though because they cut down the number of parished in my area.

 

[mercygate]

I am having a hard time with this as well. I have been attending non-denominational services. I started attending Mass. I am a bit surprised of the lack of fellowship. I even convinced my husband to go and he stated that everyone had frowns up until the part when they left. Maybe I should try a different church. It may be hard though because they cut down the number of parished in my area.

See my post. Your experience is not uncommon. But hang in there. A good friend of mine arrived in town from India 6 years ago. Didn’t know a soul. First thing, she signed up for a Cornerstone retreat. Then she saw the announcement for volunteers to work in the Missionaries of Charity soup kitchen, and signed up for that. Now she’s very involved in Scripture study and other activities, and has a dozen very good friends who would do anything for her. But she’s outgoing, not shy, and unafraid to ask for help when she needs it.

As I said in my response to Syele: You have to poke around and see where you belong in a Catholic parish because most of them are so HUGE.

 

[Syele]

It is true that in most Catholic parishes you have to work a little harder to find fellowship than you do in most protestant churches. But most Catholic churches are 10 times the size of most protestant churches. When I came into the Church, I took my first year of preparation before Confirmation in voluntary solitude. I took another year in what I dubbed my “cloistered novitiate” – again, though under spiritual direction, I deliberately did NOT get engaged in social or committee activities: just concentrated on God.

The third year, I signed up for a Cornerstone retreat – where I came in contact with 15 women with whom I am VERY close in fellowship and for practical application: work teams, support teams when somebody gets sick.

Yup: you usually have to go out and look for fellowship in Catholic parishes. We have our annual carnival this week. Everybody is BEGGED to get involved with that. I don’t do it, but that would sure be a place to bump chests and high-five with a lot of good ol’ boys (and gals). All ages work the fair. Half the county comes to the parish for that. Y’all come on down!

Maybe its the area I live, but the Parishes were all much smaller than the Protestant Churches I attended. An annual Fair sounds like fun, but is more socializing than deep fellowship.

 

[distracted]

when the Pope decides for millions and millions of Catholics what is wrong and right…

it is not the pope deciding, per se… it is the Holy Spirit, with the Pope surrendering to the Holy Spirit…

…how “not so black and white” parts of scripture is to be interpreted,

the Church does not interpret (yet) every single scripture in the Bible… when/if She does, that interpretation is to be accepted by the whole Church…

what marriages are considered valid, what confessions are considered valid, etc.

if the Church is the One Christ established, she can be trusted to “get it right”… and again, it is not the pope who is making all these decisions… it is just the pope cooperating with Jesus and discerning what is His will… Jesus is the true Head of the Church… the pope is just his… well, i hate to use this word… but “puppet” (??) Yes, i know, that doesn’t sound right… but i am a little rushed, can’t find better one…

acting on behalf of God is another…

Why is this a problem? You act on behalf of God, don’t you? I certainly HOPE you do anyway… When you try to help someone, isn’t it because you know that’s what God wants?? So you are acting on behalf of God… Why can’t the pope do that on a large scale?

for example…my sins are not forgiven because a priest didn’t say there were?

the only time he will not absolve a person is when that person clearly demonstrates he/she is not sorry & will likely commit the sin again… such as, for example, when someone confesses adultery but says he can’t leave the other woman alone…

the Pope in my opinion is a human, just like me, who needs to be forgiven for sins

JP II went to confession at least once a week and i heard even once a day sometimes… If i had all that responsibility, i would also… and even w/o that responsibility, i would go to confession @ least weekly if i had a priest to go to.that i got along with . (long, weird story…).

I just have a hard time seeing where this authority is the Pope’s…

Again, it is not his, it is Christ’s… He is just letting the world know what Jesus thinks about Whatever… Someone has to, don’t you think?? How could we be expected to do the will of God if we were not shown what that was?? We humans are weak and sinners and must be shown the truth of God’s will (law, etc.) or we just won’t get it…