Protestants Whats wrong with this prayer? = Rosary

[seabird3579]

bene7:

A creature is a creature, whether in physical form or in spirit. And like I said, you have no Divine revelation to back up your assertion that “God allows it.” Anyway, for Got to “allow it,” would assume the creature possesses the divine attribute. They simply don’t. It’s one of the attributes that separates the Creator from the creature. Omniscience is called an incommumicable attribute.

So what you’re saying then, is that God must be in submission to ‘your understanding of Him’ and those things that you cannot conceive of or attach a scriptural reference to, well…they simply don’t exist.

Right…Arrogance to the extreme.

You can “surmise” all you want, but the guidance of the Holy Spirit on doctrinal issues was Promised by God to The Church.

Catholics are very comfortable with Mary being the Mother of God, we don’t presume her to be the ‘creator of the Creator’, that’s just nonsense. She is the mother of Jesus, therefore, she is the Mother of God. Jesus is our brother, therefore, she is our Mother, too.

 

[Tonks40]

seabird3579:

So what you’re saying then, is that God must be in submission to ‘your understanding of Him’ and those things that you cannot conceive of or attach a scriptural reference to, well…they simply don’t exist.

Right…Arrogance to the extreme.

You can “surmise” all you want, but the guidance of the Holy Spirit on doctrinal issues was Promised by God to The Church.

Catholics are very comfortable with Mary being the Mother of God, we don’t presume her to be the ‘creator of the Creator’, that’s just nonsense. She is the mother of Jesus, therefore, she is the Mother of God. Jesus is our brother, therefore, she is our Mother, too.

Bene -
You had the same problem with this on this thread, too:

John 6 and Eucharist?

 

[Milliardo]

bene7:

.Elizabeth’s “Lord” was the “man” Christ Jesus.

Please tell us here if the use of “Lord” in ther other passages would warrant it to mean God is a man then.

“…that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ (this is in reference and in context to the MAN, Jesus Christ)* is LORD, to the glory of God the Father*” (read Phil. 2:5-11).

So are you then saying that Jesus is only man, and indeed not God the Son?

Sorry, but no creature, human or angelic, can operate with the divine attribute of omniscience.

Correct–they do so though because God works through them; hence, the power of God overshadows them, so much so that it is really Him working in and through them.

Angels can no more hear the prayers of men on earth than a “saint” can in the presence of the Lord.

Please–you are merely arguing for the sake of arguing. You are not reading. Please stop adn read what is being posted before posting; no one is saying they can hear on their own; everything that they can do, they can because it comes from God. He is the Source of it all, and so they can do because He works through them.

Anyway, for Got to “allow it,” would assume the creature possesses the divine attribute.

So when we pray over a person, and he is cured, do we possess that divine attribute then? God allows it, and He works through that person who prayed over.

 

[Alfie]

Superstar905:

well, like I said, I’m Catholic, but to answer your question, scripture does not say that she is dead, lol. As a Catholic, I would say that she is difinitely alive, as are all who are in Christ. God is God of the living, not the dead!!!

but hey, if I was a fundamentalist, I’d say, why do you be part of a website that devotes itself to the Irish? You should only be devoting yourself to God I wonder if examples like these show Fundamentalis Protestants how absurb they sound when they say things like this, like it’s either/or rather than both/and, and how devoting yourself to anything good doesn’t take away from the Glory of God.

I don’t see anything in the Bible that says that Adam and Eve are dead either. Mary is only mentioned ten times in the entire Old and New Testaments of the Bible combined. If she is the mother of God would she not be mentioned more times then that?

 

[Milliardo]

Alfie:

If she is the mother of God would she not be mentioned more times then that?

The whole point of the Bible is Jesus, not Mary. Taking your argument further, the Apostles were all commissioned by Christ, yet how many of them have been mentioned often? Yet we all know them to be important. The same is true with Mary: she’s not above Christ. Having one not mentioned often doesn’t negate her to be mother of God the Son, does it now?

 

[Eireann]

Alfie:

I don’t see anything in the Bible that says that Adam and Eve are dead either. Mary is only mentioned ten times in the entire Old and New Testaments of the Bible combined. If she is the mother of God would she not be mentioned more times then that?

Emmanuel means God among us, so in that context Mary is the mother of Jesus who was Emmanuel, God among us.

1 Isaias 7

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

Isaias 8

And shall pass through Juda, overflowing, and going over shall reach even to the neck. And the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Emmanuel.

Matthew 1

23** Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
**

 

[deb1]

I am not a theologian, so maybe I am completly wrong here.

When Jesus died, God did not have to reintroduce his soul to his body. He could have just taken his soul to heaven.Yet, the body was important enough that God brought both body and soul to heaven. Jesus still has his human body, it is perfected but it is still his body.

I point this out, because some are saying that Mary is merely the mother of Jesus’ body. Yet, the very fact of the incarnation, flesh and divinity combined, are important to God, not just on earth, but in heaven, also. If God doesn’t want Jesus’ flesh and divinity seperated, then I don’t think that we on earth should do so. Isn’t Jesus one whole package?

 

[Eireann]

mellysue:

I may be wrong, but I don’t think anyone in the bible is called Holy except God. If I am wrong, I’ll be the first to admit it.

Exodus
22:31 You shall be holy men to me: the flesh that beasts have tasted of before, you shall not eat, but shall cast it to the dogs.

Leviticus
11:44 For I am the Lord your God: be holy because I am holy. Defile not your souls by any creeping thing, that moveth upon the earth.

Leviticus
19:2 Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel, and thou shalt say to them: Be ye holy, because I the Lord your God am holy.

Deuteronomy
7:6 Because thou art a holy people to the Lord thy God. The Lord thy God hath chosen thee, to be his peculiar people of all peoples that are upon the earth.

Numbers

5:17** And he shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and he shall cast a little earth of the pavement of the tabernacle into it.**

Mark
6:20 For Herod feared John, knowing him to be a just and holy man: and kept him, and when he heard him, did many things: and he heard him willingly.

More

 

[Eireann]

flameburns623:

She can’t hear the request. She is dead–either in Hell or in Heaven. If she is in Hell she is neither inclined to pray for anyone on earth nor would her prayers be efficacious. If she is in Heaven she is beyond any knowledge of what is happening on Earth, indeed such an awareness would mar her beatific vision of God, to Whom alone she should be giving praise and glory.

Not trying to be rude but the question was asked.

So the mother of Jesus is in hell, but Enoch and Elias are in Heaven.

Oh please !

So Enoch and Elias & Moses are not aware of what is going on here ?

If she is in Heaven she is beyond any knowledge of what is happening on Earth

Mark 9:1** And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter and James and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves, and was transfigured before them. 2 And his garments became shining and exceeding white as snow, so as no fuller upon earth can make white. 3 And there appeared to them Elias with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. **… talking with Jesus, so I expect they could hear Jesus.

Jude 1:14** Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints**,

Where are these saints coming from, hell, purgatory ?

 

[Eireann]

flameburns623:

There are reams of arguments on both sides about this. Protestants do not believe one can be ‘full of grace’. Grace is not a substance, like water, which one can have much of or little of. Grace is a verb not a noun: it is ‘favor’. Hence the preference of most Protestant translators for ‘highly-favored one’.

Luke 1:28** And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. **

 

[Eireann]

Kendy:

There are two things I don’t like about the rosaries. The first is growing up I couldn’t figure out why people kept repeating the same thing over and over again, and it felt like mindless repetition.

Matthew 26:
44 And leaving them, he went again: and he prayed the third time, saying the selfsame word.

Mark 14:39** A going away again, he prayed, saying the same words**

 

[Eireann]

YADA:

Elizabeth identifies Mary as the “Mother of my Lord”

Your comment made me think of the words of Thomas.

John 20:28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.

Jesus never rebuked him, errrr hold on I’m only Jesus. :nope:

 

[bene7]

Milliardo:

Please tell us here if the use of “Lord” in ther other passages would warrant it to mean God is a man then.

Context is everything, Milliardo. In context Elizabeth was speaking to a pregnant Mary. And if she was the “mother” of her Lord, then she is referring to the child within her. I doubt Elizabeth called her the “mother” of her Lord prior to Mary conceiving.

So are you then saying that Jesus is only man, and indeed not God the Son?

Nope - didn’t say that. But the eternal Son did assume humanity and was named Jesus. And it is the man Christ Jesus that God exalts as LORD (read Phil. 2:4-11).

Correct–they do so though because God works through them; hence, the power of God overshadows them, so much so that it is really Him working in and through them.

I’ll ask you AGAIN. What is your source for this detailed explanation??? How do you know God “overshadows” them? Such informaton would have to be directly revealed by some divine messenger. Who was this messenger?

Nevertheless, we’re talking the power of an attribute, not simply a miracle.

Please–you are merely arguing for the sake of arguing. You are not reading. Please stop adn read what is being posted before posting; no one is saying they can hear on their own; everything that they can do, they can because it comes from God. He is the Source of it all, and so they can do because He works through them.

And you need to tell me the source of this teaching. Give me the name of this divine messenger who personally revealed all this to whoever it was in the Catholic church. Otherwise it’s all just fabricated religion, and you’re just following the product of the imagination of mere men.

So when we pray over a person, and he is cured, do we possess that divine attribute then? God allows it, and He works through that person who prayed over.

How many people have you yourself prayed over and were instantly cured? I haven’t read about you in the newspaper lately. But to go along with your hypothesis, in this case God would work “through” the person, but it would still be God doing the healing, and it would be an answer to that person’s prayer. But the person who was healed didn’t PRAY TO a person who was living in some other dimension. That would be more in the context we’re discussing.

Bottom line, neither Mary, nor any deceased saints have the ability to hear, remotely, millions of prayers unless they’re omniscient. And that is a DIVINE attribute, an incommunicable divine attribute. Mere creatures could not handle it.

And AGAIN, where are we ever instructed by God to even do such a thing? Jesus taught His own disciples to pray directly to God, not to each other.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

seabird3579:

She is the mother of Jesus, therefore, she is the Mother of God. Jesus is our brother, therefore, she is our Mother, too.

Jesus calls us “brethren” in the spiritual sense, not literally. In John chaper one it is said that those who receive Christ to them God gives the right to become children of God. This is meant in a spiritual sense. So if you say that in a spiritual sense we become the children of Mary, then you have made her equal with God. That’s blasphemy.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[josephdavid]

Please read carefully and thoroughly.
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[Alfie]

Milliardo:

The whole point of the Bible is Jesus, not Mary. Taking your argument further, the Apostles were all commissioned by Christ, yet how many of them have been mentioned often? Yet we all know them to be important. The same is true with Mary: she’s not above Christ. Having one not mentioned often doesn’t negate her to be mother of God the Son, does it now?

First of all I made a mistake about Adam and Eve. Adam died when he was 930 years old. Mary died like all the other people mentioned in the Bible. The Bible says that man is appointed once to die and then the judgement. The fact that Mary’s death is not mentioned in the Bible is proof that she is not the mother of God. Usually only the most influential people are mentioned by name or there deaths are noted and Mary’s death isn’t that important or it would have been evident. Women in particular are rarely mentioned in the Bible because of their low status so if Mary was that important her name would be mentioned as an exception to that rule and we would know more about her than what is noted.

 

[George_Waters]

All other things aside, Mary gave birth to Jesus, raised Him, supported and believed in Him (the first Christian) and was one of the few who had the courage to witness His crucifixion! Don’t you think she was important? That she should be considered influential? “All I am I owe to my mother.” - George Washington. Thank you for showing us the influence your dear mother had on you Mr. President. I am confident Jesus would echo the words of Mr. Washington.

I am personally so sick of the “convenient womb” rhetoric. It is un-Biblical, smacks of sexism and I think it is probably more an attack on Catholics and Catholicism than any real belief about Mary.

Peace,

George

 

[Milliardo]

bene7:

Context is everything, Milliardo. In context Elizabeth was speaking to a pregnant Mary. And if she was the “mother” of her Lord, then she is referring to the child within her. I doubt Elizabeth called her the “mother” of her Lord prior to Mary conceiving.

You lost me here–can you please rephrase what you said?

Nope - didn’t say that. But the eternal Son did assume humanity and was named Jesus. And it is the man Christ Jesus that God exalts as LORD (read Phil. 2:4-11).

You are losing me again here–you said you didn’t mean to say Jesus is not God the Son, and then come around and say God exalted the man Jesus as Lord. Now, I’ve heard of this before, wherein God only imputed the title Lord to Jesus; in other words, it was only later after birth that Jesus’ divinity was somehow given by God to Him. Does your denomination teach this?

What is your source for this detailed explanation??? How do you know God “overshadows” them? Such informaton would have to be directly revealed by some divine messenger. Who was this messenger?

Irrelevant. What is your point here?

Nevertheless, we’re talking the power of an attribute, not simply a miracle.

If God allows one to be cured by another by praying over, then you would have to agree that either that person is being used by God to cure someone, or else you would have to say that the person has that divine attribute as well. We’re not merely talking about the ability to cure here, but the principle behind it all. You would have to be consistent with that principle, or else you would then go this way and that, which would lead one to suspect you’re merely arguing for the sake of arguing, and nothing else.

Bottom line, neither Mary, nor any deceased saints have the ability to hear, remotely, millions of prayers unless they’re omniscient. And that is a DIVINE attribute, an incommunicable divine attribute. Mere creatures could not handle it.

Please read what I posted above. If you are to be consistent with your point, then you would have to say as well that the person who prays over another for healing also has that divine attribute, right? Or else your whole point falls flat, since you would say one thing for one instance, and another thing for the very same principle–hardly consistent at all.

Jesus taught His own disciples to pray directly to God, not to each other.

Have you not read in James about it? Or Paul constantly asking for prayers for himself as well as for others?

 

[Milliardo]

Alfie:

Mary died like all the other people mentioned in the Bible.

All the other persons? Elijah was taken up to heaven bodily; he did not die. So the question again, if a prophet such as Elijah can be taken up to heaven, then why not the mother of our Lord herself?

The fact that Mary’s death is not mentioned in the Bible is proof that she is not the mother of God.

You mean that Elizabeth was so wrong in exclaiming that Mary is the mother of our Lord?

Usually only the most influential people are mentioned by name or there deaths are noted and Mary’s death isn’t that important or it would have been evident.

Paul’s death was not mentioned as well–is it not important? Peter’s death was not mentioned. John the Apostle’s death was not mentioned. In fact, all of the Apostles’ deaths were never mentioned. They were not important then?

 

[WorBlux]

Sorry, but no creature, human or angelic, can operate with the divine attribute of omniscience. Angels can no more hear the prayers of men on earth than a “saint” can in the presence of the Lord. A creature is a creature, whether in physical form or in spirit. And like I said, you have no Divine revelation to back up your assertion that “God allows it.” Anyway, for Got to “allow it,” would assume the creature possesses the divine attribute. They simply don’t. It’s one of the attributes that separates the Creator from the creature. Omniscience is called an incommumicable attribute.

Omniscience would not be neccessary for the saint to hear a prayer. Prayers to the saints or mary are adressed as such. Much like a letter to a foreign cuntry would be adresses.

Another facet of catholic faith is the communion of saints. It is the belief that the faithful that have died before us are still with us in spirit.