Protestants Whats wrong with this prayer? = Rosary

[arieh0310]

SolaChristo:

Its a matter of perspective. When prayer is needed do you pray for someone to pray for you or does one have the assurance that he can petetion God, thus a believer goes first to God on their own behalf not goes to someone else first thing

Even when I was a Protestant I always wanted as many people as possible praying for me. When an issue came up that needed prayer I would immediately grab my wife, or I would call my friends and ask for their intercession (especially the ones that I knew had a strong prayer life). But that didn’t distract me from asking God too, I never just let other people pray for me without going to God with my request as well. A Catholic doesn’t pray to saints because they feel they cannot approach God but because “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16b).

 

[Anglican77]

arieh0310:

1 Kings 1:31
Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, “May my lord King David live forever!”

Genesis 18:2
Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

Genesis 19:1
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed ] The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites.

1 Samuel 20:41
After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together—but David wept the most.

There are plenty more examples. I think it is hard for us Americans to understand the appropriateness of honoring others in this way when we don’t live in a monarchy. Honor is not the same as worship.

So what about having the statues? Where do they fit into the scope of tradition?

 

[arieh0310]

Anglican77:

So what about having the statues? Where do they fit into the scope of tradition?

Ezekiel 41:17-19 “In the space above the outside of the entrance to the inner sanctuary and on the walls at regular intervals all around the inner and outer sanctuary were carved cherubim and palm trees. Palm trees alternated with cherubim. Each cherub had two faces: the face of a man toward the palm tree on one side and the face of a lion toward the palm tree on the other. They were carved all around the whole temple.”

1 Chronicles 28:18 “and the weight of the refined gold for the altar of incense. He also gave him the plan for the chariot, that is, the cherubim of gold that spread their wings and shelter the ark of the covenant of the LORD.”

Exodus 25:18-20 “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover.”

Numbers 21:8–9 “make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live”

Making statuary isn’t the problem, worshiping them as a god is.

 

[YADA]

Kendy,

Sorry, It took a while to get back to you. I am at work.
Here is but one example: from 2 Samuel Chapter 6

“6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.”

Here Uzzah reached out to steady the Ark because he thought it was going to fall and not for any evil purpose. read in 1 Samuel about what happened to the Philistines , who had captured the Ark, they became fearful exactly due to the wrath of God. Some of them were struck dead just for looking inside.

Not to get too far off the topic but the parallels in scripture between the Ark of the Old Covenant (bearing the tablets of Moses and the Manna) and the Ark (Mary) of the New Covenant (The Word Made Flesh, the Bread of the New Covenant) are found in 2 Samual. David goes to the hill country to greet the Ark. He dances, leaping joyfully before the Lord. Mary does to the hill country to visit Elizabeth and the child in Elizabeth’s womb (John the Baptist) leaps for joy. Elizabeth identifies Mary as the “Mother of my Lord”

 

[arieh0310]

YADA:

Elizabeth identifies Mary as the “Mother of my Lord”

Elizabeth didn’t say “who am I that the mother of my Lord’s flesh should come to me”?

 

[YADA]

arieh0310,

Congratulations on your journey of faith. I work with the RCIA in my parish and have for the last decade plus! I hope and pray that you receive many blessings during this period of the catechumenate. From your posts, I can tell you are well versed in scripture. You have probably realized that the Catholic faith is well founded in scripture.

I am assuming that you quoted me (quoting scripture) because you agree. Elizabeth does not put any qualifyers upon Mary as the “Mother of my Lord”. She does not say say Lord’s “flesh” or “divinity” or “humanity” She only says “Mother of my Lord” and this clearly is a reference to God.

I was going to post the same quotations as you did, especially the one about the “serpents” and the people healed by gazing upon it. From sripture, we know that the healing came from God and not from the figurine and the Isrealites were not worshiping the bronze serpents. And this all after Moses received the Commandments. That is why scripture must be looked at in context and in relation to each other and in how that faith and scripture has been lived by the communities from which it springs.

May GOD Happy Advent

 

[YADA]

SOme discussion has occurred in this thread about the prayer that Jesus gave to us and how Jesus never said to pray the Rosary.

Catholics pray the “Lord’s Prayer” sometimes refered to as the “Our Father” prayer all the time. We pray the Lord’s prayer in every Mass. It is commonly prayed at gatherings of catholics. It is prayed alone or in combination with other prayers, whether they be spontaneuous or traditional.

In fact, the Lord’s Prayer is an integral part of praying the Rosary as the “Rosary” is actually a collection of prayers that are said as one meditates upon the life of Christ. The Rosary also includes the “Creed” and the "Glory Be to God…"The Rosary is in truth a deeply scriptural (biblical) and spiritual (contemplative) prayer. With this prayer we can mediate upon the mysteries of our salvation in Christ from the Annunciation to the Passion, Ressurection and the Ascension and Heavenly Kingship of our Lord, Jesus, the Messiah, the King of Kings.

No catholic is ever compelled to pray the “Rosary” and some catholics never have. This is a prayer that many Christians (not just Catholics) have found to be beneficial in their prayer life. Prayer can take many forms and as a preist friend of mine once said…“Pray as you can, not as you can’t!” It is more important to pray to God (Jesus, Holy Spirit) in a manner that fits your spirituality then to struggle with a prayer form that does not nurture your prayer life. We all grow and develop in our faith life. Prayer with grow and develop with us. For some, a conversational prayer with Jesus is deeply rewarding. Some begin with a learned prayer. What is important is to pray.

And we are commanded to pray for one another. And to pray unceasingly, without end.

 

[arieh0310]

YADA:

I am assuming that you quoted me (quoting scripture) because you agree. Elizabeth does not put any qualifyers upon Mary as the “Mother of my Lord”. She does not say say Lord’s “flesh” or “divinity” or “humanity” She only says “Mother of my Lord” and this clearly is a reference to God.

Yes, my post was tongue in cheek. I wish there were a sarcasm font.

 

[YADA]

Anglican77:

I just don’t believe that the dead can pray. Won’t we only have eternal life once Christ comes again? Perhaps I am mistaken.

Anglican77, how can life be “eternal” if we live, then die and are without life? That does not sound *eternal *to me. Scripture does not support a view like that as others have noted by these and other examples: The rich man requested that the poor man bring him water, that the poor man take a warning to his brother. Those that arose from the tomb when Christ was crucified. Moses and Elisha at the Transfiguration and the Martyrs of the Book of Revelation.

We live in Christ eternally and this world temporarily. We know that we are commanded to pray for one another. No where does scripture say pray for each other but only until death.

 

[seabird3579]

Kendy:

Just wondering if you can cite the scriptural reference for this.

Kendy

Kendy, one of the books I would refer you to for Scriptural references on Mary being the Ark of the “new” Covenant would be Patrick Madrid’s, “Where’s That in the Bible?” If you can’t order it through Catholic Answers you can get it through EWTN religious catalouge section. Go to the section about Mary, then refer to the Immaculate Conception section, pages 67 through 70.

Very well written and shows you the correlation between the Old Testament prophesies and the New Testament fulfillments. Great book!

Peace,
Brenda

 

[Zooey]

SolaChristo:

You asked for my opinion so Ill give it. But after I give it a Ill leave it for you have your own opinions.

1. Do not pray as the heathen do in vain repetitions.

Vain means useless or meaningless. The rosary is a meditation on the life of Christ.
It saddens me to hear anyone refer to contemplating the life of the Saviour as “heathen”…I feel certain that it saddens Him as well.
Surely, to spend time & effort becoming more aware of His life & death & rising again is anything but “vail repetitions!”

1. Jesus gave us a blueprint of how to pray, it was not the rosary.

That “blueprint” is part of the rosary. Sadly, I have rarely heard a large proportion of protestants pray it at all. Indeed, they often refer to it (the Our Father) as a “vain repetition” as well.

1. Mary is not the Mother of God, how can God have a mother?

Well, it’s like this: God decided not to let the whole world go (literally) to hell, so the 2nd Person of the Trinity laid aside His glory, a & was born in a stable in Bethlehem, becoming the Son of Mary, as well as the Son of God (& God the Son). Ever since that, & before, when He was in her womb, Mary was & is the Mother of God.
At least, she had better be!! If she is only the mother of a mere mortal, we have no Saviour & therefore are all going to hell.

1. We make the death and resurrection of Jesus to no affect as we are no longer orphans but sons and daughters of the Most High God and able to boldly go to His throne of grace and petition Him directly.

Well, yes, of course, we are children of God the Father & God the Holy Spirit indwells us.
We also have a family relationship with God the Son: we are His brethren. Part of that relationship includes being His mother’s children. Mary the Mother of God the Son is our mother too, since He gave her to us while He was dying on a Roman cross. Part of that relationship includes her praying for us…just like any loving Christian mother. Except that this one has an especially close relationship to the Saviour as well: she is His mother. (Always nice to have the “big guns” to bring out to pray for us when we need a prayer partner…Nothing like some intercessory prayer by our mother, who is also the Mother of God.

 

[Celtic_Son]

Malachi4U:

I also was also able to free myself from the clutches of the Baptist sect after 26 adult years in it. I am now Catholic by ‘Desire’! Praise God! I have seen the light and come home to His visible body, His Catholic Church. Anyway, I wrote a letter to my “EX”-baptist preacher to point out some flaws in what he taught about Catholics and what his AWANA teachers said about Catholics too.

Just a portion:

"Question: Do Roman Catholics pray to Blessed Mary and why do they always seem to use the word ‘Blessed’ in her name?

Answer: First lets define what pray, worship, venerate and adore mean to Roman Catholics as it is often used differently by Protestants or even foreigners in our country. I used ‘Merriam Webster’s Dictionary’ for definitions as needed.

Pray means ‘to ask’ or make a humble request. By this definition prayer does not have to be directed to God alone. So Roman Catholics do pray to Blessed Mary since it is only a humble request and nothing more.

Worship means reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; an act of expressing such reverence, a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual, extravagant respect or admiration or devotion. By definition we can worship someone deserving of our admiration or devotion even though they are not God by any means. We can also worship God. So Roman Catholics do worship God and worship Blessed Mary also. There is nothing at all wrong with this Tradition using this definition. Catholics DO NOT worship Mary the way Baptists worship God.

Venerate means to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference or to honor with a ritual act of devotion. Based on this Roman Catholics do in fact venerate Blessed Mary as well as our parents, great people in history like the apostles, and Christian martyrs. These people have a special place in our hearts.

Adore means to worship or honor as a deity or as divine with loving admiration and devotion. Based on this definition Roman Catholics adore God and God alone!

Honor a showing of usually merited respect or one whose worth brings respect or fame. Catholics honor Mary. Why do Baptists not?"

Protestants and Catholics use the same words but sometimes in different ways.

Here is an example. When I was at work this year I said I was looking foward to Good Friday. Two of my Baptist coworkers said, “You Catholics call it ‘good’ but there was nothing good that happened on it. That’s the day they killed Jesus!”

Well I was stumped so I did some research. Perhaps Baptists should do some too sometime. It turns out that in Old English (Like in the KJV the Baptists use but fail to understand the very language) Good meant Holy. So it would translate today as Holy Friday. Jesus died for our sins on this day which makes it a very Holy Friday indeed. This is a good example of how the Catholic Religion is 2,000 years old and the Baptist sect is usually no older then when their preacher started preaching whatever it is that he preaches today. Catholics have a Tradition with 2,000 years of experience. Baptisits have a tradition with of only the age of their preacher that just repeats itself over and over and over going bak only 400 years at most.

Hope this helps.

Malachi , I just wondered did your old baptist preacher write back to you? My old pastors shy away from me now that I’m Catholic. But it is the best thing i ever did!

 

[Neverland]

To Jimmy:

You said:
Whether you call it prayer when you make an exhortation to your mother or not, that is what it is. To pray is equivalent to ask or to beg.

I ask you, do you use the word PRAY in English for other than God or Higher Being?
A word definition often changes as the word is borrowed to other language. I never read the word Pray is used for human. Do you? You may give me any article to prove me wrong.

You said:
I never urged you to do anything, in fact I never addressed any posts to you until you responded to me. If you don’t want to pray the Rosary then don’t.

This thread is directed to Protestants (Fundamental) who dare to come here.
And you also said previously:
So again I ask, why don’t you pray to Mary and the saints?

Sound a bit contradictive to me.

You said:
Christ exhorted the people to follow Him. He also said that those who do not hear the Church shall be anathema and as a publican. He never called you to read a book in the same way He never called you to pray through anyone else. Until you show me where He says read the bible because that is the sole source then your statement that He was silent on prayer to saints means nothing.

Oh, really? Then why do you read your Bible? Although your statement really sounds strange to me IF YOU THINK IT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT (Gee, you sound like you want to add something but you, Catholics, also hate the Mormons!!). Or you don’t think that the Bible tells us the story of Jesus and his teaching?
I believe you still admit that the Bible contains Jesus’ history and teaching. Then I will show you that HE called you and also about the Prayer:

Matt 6: 7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Matt 6: 9 - end of the Lord’s Prayer
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name, etc

John 14:13
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.

John 14:14
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Read also John 15-16

About Following Jesus (means Following Jesus’ teaching)
Matt 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me

Many other verses about following Jesus, but I will put this one for you:
If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

(Continued)

 

[Neverland]

You said:
I look forward to it.

About the living and the dead are separated:

Eccl 9:15
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

You said:
Most of the bible is the same, but for you to say to use your bible to prove it is to remove certain books like, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, Judith, Baruch, and 1 and 2 Machabees. It is an incomplete bible. I will prove my faith from the whole bible.

I have already know that. But prove me that the essense of the message and God’s plan are deterioriated because the exclusion of those books.

You said:
I did not fail to mention anything. Paul exhorts the people in every single letter to pray for eachother. He tells them he is praying for each of them. James says the prayers of a just man availeth us much. Those in heaven are not removeed from the Church but are made more radical parts of it. Since they are part of the Church it is still their job to pray for each other member of the Church.

Pray THROUGH and Pray FOR is very different, you know.

You said:
I will be waiting for your PM.

Since you have made it in open discussion and many people join now, there’s no way to make it a PM between two persons anymore.

This is my response to you.

 

[Neverland]

To Monica,

You said:
Well we are waiting for your next post to show us were your bible shows us not to pray to the saints I thougtht I would post an article on prayer to the saints. There are plainty of bible verse that explain the view of praying to the saints.

You said:
Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!”

Really, I don’t know why, may be my English is very bad, but I don’t see this verse told us to praise all his angels and all his host. I believe it urges all of US including The Angels and The Host to Praise The Lord. You can clarify about this first, before I go to see other verses you mentioned.

I think it’s the opposite. I make a negative statement that Bible didn’t tell us to pray to the saints and Mother Mary. So I am waiting FOR your next post to show me the verses from JESUS that He suggested us to pray to the saints. I have mentioned in my response to Jimmy that Jesus told us how to pray and told us to ASK in His Name. And never mention anything else.

To George,

You said:
The teachings of Jesus are not restricted to the Bible. In fact we are told in the Bible to keep the traditions passed down to us from the apostles (something the Presbyterian church I grew up in liked to ignore) and the Bible mentions books that are not in either the Catholic or Protestant canon.

There are many teaching AFTER Jesus. And the way we know that the teaching and the tradition with Jesus Teaching is by consulting with Our Bible.
I have no problem with Tradition and I don’t wish to debate with you, unless you wish to.

I myself still don’t understand we, Christians, bash each other to see which one is right or not. But humanly, I will defend my case to my knowledge, if challenged, although it’s not what Jesus taught us (Do not judge!).

 

[Singinbeauty]

I think part of the problem between protestants and catholics is that we are stubborn mules on both sides and are unwilling to listen to either side. It’s all symantics in these conversations and it gets quite frustrating as we all know.

I am protestant, namely non-denominational. And there are a few things about prayer that I would like to clear up between catholics and protestants.

#1. This whole silly debate about the actual word ‘pray’. Yes, in OLD english people would actually use the word ‘pray’ to express that someone ‘asked’ someone for something. BUT can you HONESTLY tell me that you go around using this phrase in your everyday language? In today’s world when you hear someone say ‘I prayed this morning that…’ what pops into your head first? To me, the first and only thing that pops into my head is that this person prayed to God for something. Not that they went to their mother or someone else and asked for something. We ask someone to pray for us here on earth to know that we are not alone in our struggle. God is not all of a sudden going to grant a request just because Suzy prays for you in her evening prayer time but it reminds her to think of her brother or sister in Christ and it helps you to know that you are not alone and that someone else cares. BUT you don’t go to Suzy and bow down before her, bowing your head, folding your hands and ask her to pray for you. You don’t get down on your knees by the bedside and expect her to hear you down the street in her bedroom and sense that you need prayer. You also don’t erect statues of Suzy in your home or church so that you can focus on it and pray to her for intercessory prayers to God. So there is a HUGE difference between praying to God and/or Mary and asking someone here on earth to offer your prayer up with you.

#2. Mary and her ‘mystical, God-like’ powers. Where in the bible does it say that Mary or any other human can hear all prayers or that you are to pray to them for anything? I don’t see anywhere in the bible that there is a case where someone prayed to someone who has crossed over for anything. I could be wrong but nothing so far in my study. And don’t give me the whole ‘who said Mary was dead’ thing… Who said Lazarus is dead? I mean, Jesus raised him from the dead yet I am pretty sure that even though it doesn’t speak of him dying again we can all agree he died, unless you believe he is lurking still in a cave somewhere. I have looked and I haven’t found a passage saying that Adam had died but I am pretty sure he also died. So by the logic of the fact that the bible never mentions Mary dying so she must have been taken up body and sould to God (the assumption) then that also happened to Lazarus and Adam… right? Mary is enjoying her reward with God. And we should leave her be to enjoy that time with Him. I have a funny feeling that when we get to heaven we will not be bothered with anything but bowing before God and worshipping Him. How could attention be on ANYTHING else when you are in His awesome presence? She does not possess god-like qualities and she cannot act as God. She is not omnipotent or omnicient like God. She is a woman who loved God so much that she trusted Him fully and God blessed her. But as Jesus did not put her above any other human so should we…

27As he was speaking, a woman in the crowd called out, "God bless your mother--the womb from which you came, and the breasts that nursed you!"

28He replied, "But even more blessed are all who hear the word of God and put it into practice."

But even MORE blessed… Jesus states here that Mary, His mother, is not more important than the rest of us. Just my 2cents…

 

[jimmy]

Neverland:

To Jimmy:

I ask you, do you use the word PRAY in English for other than God or Higher Being?
A word definition often changes as the word is borrowed to other language. I never read the word Pray is used for human. Do you? You may give me any article to prove me wrong.

Yes I do use it for beings other than God. The word pray in English means to beg. It is a modern idea - within the last 100 years - to limit it to God.

This thread is directed to Protestants (Fundamental) who dare to come here.
And you also said previously:
So again I ask, why don’t you pray to Mary and the saints?

Sound a bit contradictive to me.

You can believe anything you want is contradictory I really don’t care.

Oh, really? Then why do you read your Bible? Although your statement really sounds strange to me IF YOU THINK IT IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT (Gee, you sound like you want to add something but you, Catholics, also hate the Mormons!!). Or you don’t think that the Bible tells us the story of Jesus and his teaching?

You really should think before you post. The more you post the more ignorant and bigotted you sound. Point me to Christ telling me to read the bible. I read the bible because the Church has accepted it as being inerant. I don’t read it because Christ said that is the way to truth.

 

[Neverland]

To SinginBeauty and All,

Yeah, after re-reading my posts, they are very uncharitable and selfish and I know I should be ashamed of myself.
Folks, especially Jimmy, I do apologize for hurting your feeling when we are in Christmas Month. I don’t say that I find it wrong if you pray - who am I to judge. We should leave all the judgement to God alone.
I hope this thread will end eventually. There’s no need bashing each other, when in fact we should follow the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus said,“Love your enemy.”
IF Jesus said so, of course I am sure that Jesus wants us to love our brothers and sisters too. We are the body of Christ, with our own unique position and talents.

 

[Neverland]

Jimmy,

As SinginBeauty said, I am but a stubborn mule. Have a happy holiday!

 

[Reuben_J]

Neverland:

To SinginBeauty and All,

Yeah, after re-reading my posts, they are very uncharitable and selfish and I know I should be ashamed of myself.
Folks, especially Jimmy, I do apologize for hurting your feeling when we are in Christmas Month. I don’t say that I find it wrong if you pray - who am I to judge. We should leave all the judgement to God alone.
I hope this thread will end eventually. There’s no need bashing each other, when in fact we should follow the teaching of Jesus.
Jesus said,“Love your enemy.”
IF Jesus said so, of course I am sure that Jesus wants us to love our brothers and sisters too. We are the body of Christ, with our own unique position and talents.

This thread asks for your opinion and you have done that. Thank you, brother. You apologized for your posts for entering into an argument that you are invited to, you have spoken well for yourself as a Christian. And that’s courage, not many of us have.

A Blessed Christmas to you and family.