Protestants Whats wrong with this prayer? = Rosary

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Huguenot:
Of course I have asked friends to pray for me, and I pray for them, but for me it’s not the same at all, the “saints” are not with us any more …
and maybe American Catholics are different from French ones : in France, many of them actually ASK them to do things for them, not to “pray” for them ; maybe it doesn’t correspond to the official teachings of the RCC but it is what they “show” us …
and another thing that “disturbs” me in the Rosary is the fact or “repeating” prayers, even the Lord’s Prayer …
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You are correct in that the saints are not with us anymore. That means that they have already been sanctified. Remember that nothing unclean shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Some of the linkshere may help. You will find common sense, as well as cites from the early church and of course the bible.

When people ask the saints to do something for them, it is understood that it is through the power of God. Take the biblical story of the wedding at Cana. Asking the saints to do something for us is the equivalent of having asked Mary to do something about the wine situation. What she did then is the same that she does now: beseach Jesus to help us.

Lastly you bring up the dreaded repetitive prayer. I suppose it’s unfortunate that the angels in heaven do not have a Bible, or how else could you explain how “Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almight, who was, and who is, and who is to come.’(Rev 4:8b)” Also, when teaching the Lord’s prayer, why did Jesus say “when you pray say this”? It sounds to me as though it is encouraged to say this prayer often. Jesus also violated his command against repetitive prayer while praying in the garden of Gethsemane. The story can be found in Matt. 26:39-44. You can look it up if you’d like, but the only verse I need to cite is 44 “He left them and withdrew again and prayed a third time, saying the same thing again.”

I’ll leave you with a source that may help you:

The Rosary Dissected
 
There is this huge contemporary Christian bookstore in my city. They claim to be a resource for all Christians. However, I can’t help but notice that the few Catholic books they have are under the “Cults and Other Religions” section (along with the Mormons and JW’s) with authors I’ve never even heard of. I’m sure they are some real high quality reading. :rolleyes:

I just love how many protestants think of us as a cult and not Christian along with claiming to hate many of our Traditions and practices, yet they just can’t help but adopt them in their own special little way.

I also noticed that this store also had a big cabinet full of Christian “prayer beads” (their own version of a rosary) along with some kind of tear vase things (their version of holy water). I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I also hear protestants talking about the importance of having an “accountability partner”. Well, the Catholic Church has done this for 2000 years, it’s call your priest in confession!

And if all this isn’t bad enough, check out this link to a Lutheran church ( I use that term lightly) below. It’s one of the worst things I’ve seen yet. Just look at what they replaced the crucifix with. :eek:

herchurch.org/id8.html
 
Hugenot
…and another thing that “disturbs” me in the Rosary is the fact or “repeating” prayers, even the Lord’s Prayer …
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Oh puleez, I hope your not referring to Matt 6:7 The verse that reads, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” KJV This is one things that Protestants immediately like to throw at Catholics regarding the Rosary.

The key words here are “vain repetitions”. Praying the Rosary is one whole prayer. Jesus was not objecting about repeating prayers. If he was, then he went again His own teachings.
"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words"****. Matt 26:44 and And “again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.” Mark 14:39

I don’t remember who said it but that singing to God is like actually praying twice or something like that. Non-Catholics love to sing “Amazing Grace” or “Oh, What a friend I have in Jesus”. I love those songs too but should we say that people that sing the verses or the chorus more than once are going against the teachings of Jesus? The whole chapter must be read in order to understand what Jesus was talking about, not just one verse taken out of context.
 
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Mickey:
Absolutely! 👍

Interesting. I’m not real familiar with French culture. I would guess that these individuals do not represent all French Catholics. There’s one way to express the Catholic faith----one, holy Catholic and apostolic–utilizing Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the magisterium teaching office. 🙂

Peace to you,
Mickey
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Quite a lot do that…
and that is what we see ; to know the official doctrines of the Catholic Church we can read official documents, the catechism and so on, but we’re also interested in how people live their faith …
 
Aaron I.:
You are correct in that the saints are not with us anymore. That means that they have already been sanctified. Remember that nothing unclean shall enter the kingdom of heaven. Some of the linkshere may help. You will find common sense, as well as cites from the early church and of course the bible.

When people ask the saints to do something for them, it is understood that it is through the power of God. Take the biblical story of the wedding at Cana. Asking the saints to do something for us is the equivalent of having asked Mary to do something about the wine situation. What she did then is the same that she does now: beseach Jesus to help us.

Lastly you bring up the dreaded repetitive prayer. I suppose it’s unfortunate that the angels in heaven do not have a Bible, or how else could you explain how “Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almight, who was, and who is, and who is to come.’(Rev 4:8b)” Also, when teaching the Lord’s prayer, why did Jesus say “when you pray say this”? It sounds to me as though it is encouraged to say this prayer often. Jesus also violated his command against repetitive prayer while praying in the garden of Gethsemane. The story can be found in Matt. 26:39-44. You can look it up if you’d like, but the only verse I need to cite is 44 “He left them and withdrew again and prayed a third time, saying the same thing again.”

I’ll leave you with a source that may help you:

The Rosary Dissected
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Sorry, my computer sent the message before I had finished …
I’m not sure we can draw the kind of conclusions you draw from the wedding at Cana ; if we can, well, for me it proves the contrary : somebody addressed Mary, and she said : Go to my Son ( this is not an exact quote ) …
So I go to her Son directly, without waiting for her to tell me …

By repeating a prayer, for me it is making it more “common”, I mean, I realize less the importance and the depth of what I’m saying , so I prefer not to do so …
I don’t say that somebody else is wrong if it helps him or her ; it doesn’t help me …
When I’m in heaven I’ll see, I’ll be more intelligent than here …
 
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TobyLue:
Hugenot Oh puleez, I hope your not referring to Matt 6:7 The verse that reads, “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.” KJV This is one things that Protestants immediately like to throw at Catholics regarding the Rosary.

The key words here are “vain repetitions”. Praying the Rosary is one whole prayer. Jesus was not objecting about repeating prayers. If he was, then he went again His own teachings.
"And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words"****. Matt 26:44 and And “again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.” Mark 14:39

I don’t remember who said it but that singing to God is like actually praying twice or something like that. Non-Catholics love to sing “Amazing Grace” or “Oh, What a friend I have in Jesus”. I love those songs too but should we say that people that sing the verses or the chorus more than once are going against the teachings of Jesus? The whole chapter must be read in order to understand what Jesus was talking about, not just one verse taken out of context.
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First, I don’t want to throw anything at you ; second, the verse you mention is about repeating words like the “heathens”, I’m not heathen enough to know what it means …
But as repeating words is concerned, I don’t like songs where the name of Jesus is repeated a dozen times or more, sounds like repeating a mantra as the Hindus do …so I don’t do so …( before I became a Christian I sought God “everywhere”, not only–not mainly at first --in Christianity–and if something reminds me of something I’ve done before, maybe I overreact, but I can’t change my life )
the use of the Rosary doesn’t seem as common among Catholics here as it is in your country --a lot of my Catholic friends don’t use it, and when people speak about it on Catholic forums, I’ve got the feeling that most of them don’t use it any more … )
 
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IanS:
There is this huge contemporary Christian bookstore in my city. They claim to be a resource for all Christians. However, I can’t help but notice that the few Catholic books they have are under the “Cults and Other Religions” section (along with the Mormons and JW’s) with authors I’ve never even heard of. I’m sure they are some real high quality reading. :rolleyes:

I just love how many protestants think of us as a cult and not Christian along with claiming to hate many of our Traditions and practices, yet they just can’t help but adopt them in their own special little way.

I also noticed that this store also had a big cabinet full of Christian “prayer beads” (their own version of a rosary) along with some kind of tear vase things (their version of holy water). I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. I also hear protestants talking about the importance of having an “accountability partner”. Well, the Catholic Church has done this for 2000 years, it’s call your priest in confession!

And if all this isn’t bad enough, check out this link to a Lutheran church ( I use that term lightly) below. It’s one of the worst things I’ve seen yet. Just look at what they replaced the crucifix with. :eek:

herchurch.org/id8.html
Click to expand...
In France Catholicism is not considered as a “cult”, some forms of Protestantism are ( the Lutherans and the Reformed Churches are generally “accepted”, but other Protestants like Methodists or Baptists, Pentecostals and so on are usually considered as cults not only by most people but sometimes also by the local authorities, which sometimes creates problems when they want to buy some land to build a church… )
I’ve never seen Protestants using prayer beads or a kind of Holy Water, do some Protestants of different denominations do so, or is it the teaching of a particular denomination ???
same thing with the “accountability partner” … if I feel burdened by a particular sin I can share with whom I want, I can speak to someone about it, but this is not done on a regular basis, and it doesn’t mean that if we want to speak to somebody, it will always be the same person …
I’ve done so only once, for sins related to occult sciences …
 
was reading the Book of Numbers and realised happily how Chap.7 is mostly repetition - the princes, one after the other, offering their gifts , all of them the same gifts … , and we find this often , in many other places,in the O.T …

As the days and seasons repeat, yet are not the same …as God’s grace and life come in with each ‘hail mary’ - more than at the speed of light, as we and those we pray for receive the graces , even when the prayer is the same , yet things/ hearts/ persons have changed - for we are in The Presence , not of dead idols …

Do they truly help us to build up the gems of the virtues of patience and perseverance ( without the worry of the newage influence of yoga etc;), even a good preventive /remedy for nervousness/ tension/ADD…

And that same Spirit that overshadowed The Mother, we call on down , in unison, with her, to free our hearts and thoughts from so much of the world , to bring it The Love and faith…and each of those yearning sighs, deepen the heart’s desire ‘to do Thy will’ , for we know the fallen nature need graces in abundance and as The Father has shown, may be as a sign of His generosity , - 100 million sperm , to bring life to one egg, but if that egg cannot receive it, no life …Graces poured out yet if our hearts are proud, not trusting , no divine life - and The Mother shows us and helps - blessed is she who trusted …
 
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Josephene:
was reading the Book of Numbers and realised happily how Chap.7 is mostly repetition - the princes, one after the other, offering their gifts , all of them the same gifts … , and we find this often , in many other places,in the O.T …

As the days and seasons repeat, yet are not the same …as God’s grace and life come in with each ‘hail mary’ - more than at the speed of light, as we and those we pray for receive the graces , even when the prayer is the same , yet things/ hearts/ persons have changed - for we are in The Presence , not of dead idols …

Do they truly help us to build up the gems of the virtues of patience and perseverance ( without the worry of the newage influence of yoga etc;), even a good preventive /remedy for nervousness/ tension/ADD…

And that same Spirit that overshadowed The Mother, we call on down , in unison, with her, to free our hearts and thoughts from so much of the world , to bring it The Love and faith…and each of those yearning sighs, deepen the heart’s desire ‘to do Thy will’ , for we know the fallen nature need graces in abundance and as The Father has shown, may be as a sign of His generosity , - 100 million sperm , to bring life to one egg, but if that egg cannot receive it, no life …Graces poured out yet if our hearts are proud, not trusting , no divine life - and The Mother shows us and helps - blessed is she who trusted …
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sounds so esoterical to me that I haven’t understood a thing …and I don’t thing that’s it’s a problem of language … :rolleyes:
 
Apologies!
Was trying to say , repition in prayer life - Rosary does not have to be taken as antibiblical…

that persevering in pleading with The Mother to help to get our hearts ready is also His will…
 
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Huguenot:
By repeating a prayer, for me it is making it more “common”, I mean, I realize less the importance and the depth of what I’m saying , so I prefer not to do so …
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So if you say the “Our Father” less often, it becomes an uncommon prayer and hence more beneficial. I think not. The Lord told us to pray like this…

If you say this prayer often–understand the words–and feel what you are saying–then the Lord smiles upon you. 🙂
 
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Huguenot:
In France Catholicism is not considered as a “cult”, some forms of Protestantism are ( the Lutherans and the Reformed Churches are generally “accepted”, but other Protestants like Methodists or Baptists, Pentecostals and so on are usually considered as cults not only by most people but sometimes also by the local authorities, which sometimes creates problems when they want to buy some land to build a church… )
I’ve never seen Protestants using prayer beads or a kind of Holy Water, do some Protestants of different denominations do so, or is it the teaching of a particular denomination ???
same thing with the “accountability partner” … if I feel burdened by a particular sin I can share with whom I want, I can speak to someone about it, but this is not done on a regular basis, and it doesn’t mean that if we want to speak to somebody, it will always be the same person …
I’ve done so only once, for sins related to occult sciences …
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Well, then I guess that means I’m certainly not in France. Maybe I need to be. I am half French by the way, in fact my grandmother’s maiden name was St. Amand. I have no idea who uses the stuff (besides the link I gave). I just know what I saw.
 
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IanS:
Well, then I guess that means I’m certainly not in France. Maybe I need to be. I am half French by the way, in fact my grandmother’s maiden name was St. Amand. I have no idea who uses the stuff (besides the link I gave). I just know what I saw.
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Thanks for your answer …
Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of the word “cult”, I thought it was a very pejorative word that in French is usually translated “secte” ( but it seems that in English the word “sect” is much less pejorative than in French )
In this sense, in France, Catholicism isn’t regarded as a cult, it is the religion of about 4/5th of the population …
 
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Mickey:
So if you say the “Our Father” less often, it becomes an uncommon prayer and hence more beneficial. I think not. The Lord told us to pray like this…

If you say this prayer often–understand the words–and feel what you are saying–then the Lord smiles upon you. 🙂
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I don’t think a prayer is “more beneficial” if I say it more --or less–often ; a prayer is not “beneficial” in itself, and very often when I pray I pray with my own words, even if I say the same things as in the Lord’s prayer …I don’t think the words themselves are that important, what is important is what we express …
 
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Josephene:
Apologies!
Was trying to say , repition in prayer life - Rosary does not have to be taken as antibiblical…

that persevering in pleading with The Mother to help to get our hearts ready is also His will…
Click to expand...
I don’t see why I should pray Mary, the only precise example of prayer given by Jesus is addressed to his Father …
for me, with or without the Rosary doesn’t change anything …
 
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Huguenot:
what is important is what we express …
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Be true to God always and in everything. If you say the prayer “Our Father. . .” pronounce each word sincerely, with reverence, fixing your mind and heart upon God alone, not paying attention to anything or anybody around you. If you say any other prayer, say it also with all your soul, not with your heart divided, not paying undue attention to anything or anybody.
St. John of Kronstadt
 
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Mickey:
Be true to God always and in everything. If you say the prayer “Our Father. . .” pronounce each word sincerely, with reverence, fixing your mind and heart upon God alone, not paying attention to anything or anybody around you. If you say any other prayer, say it also with all your soul, not with your heart divided, not paying undue attention to anything or anybody.
St. John of Kronstadt
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That’s how I’m trying to live ( not only when I’m praying … )
 
True, Our Father can be a perfect prayer, when from a Heart of perfect Love and purity…

Like so much in life and love , there is always the element of mystery …we know from Popes and saints in The Church, Rosary has its own role - not to take away from other forms of prayer ( for example - The Chaplet of Mercy has only one Hail Mary…) ; one way to look at it may be as the rich banquet Mother Church has for the children …free to take , study , analyse, use …

www.ewtn.com doc.lib. site has articles on Rosary, and Bl. Mother’s apparitions , esp. at Fatima asking for this devotion ( Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe -all fascinating and miraculous events of The Father’s intervention , in our world of these days , through The Mother )

Bl. Mother as the New Eve…does The Father hear the beauty of that first ‘Fiat’ , in each Rosary - to undo that destructive first dialogue in the garden , and the silence of pride that kept our first parents, from calling on The Father, when the seductive/ lying /threatening serpent ( who alleged The Father, is a liar!) loomed in …
 
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Josephene:
True, Our Father can be a perfect prayer, when from a Heart of perfect Love and purity…

Like so much in life and love , there is always the element of mystery …we know from Popes and saints in The Church, Rosary has its own role - not to take away from other forms of prayer ( for example - The Chaplet of Mercy has only one Hail Mary…) ; one way to look at it may be as the rich banquet Mother Church has for the children …free to take , study , analyse, use …

www.ewtn.com doc.lib. site has articles on Rosary, and Bl. Mother’s apparitions , esp. at Fatima asking for this devotion ( Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe -all fascinating and miraculous events of The Father’s intervention , in our world of these days , through The Mother )

But you know that for us the only source of spiritual authority is the Bible, I don’t take into account what “saints” or Popes said , and I don’t believe in the apparitions of Mary … I know that for Catholics these are also sources of authority as valid as the Scriptures but not for us …
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