Protestants - When did the Catholic Church Begin?

[Mannyfit75]

There is a standing misconception regarding this passage among Roman Catholics. The name “Peter” and the “rock” on which the church is to be founded are not the same. One is masculine while the other is feminine. In Greek it is necessary for the two terms to agree in gender and number. It is thus not upon Peter which the church is to be founded but rather upon his confession that

“You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Mt 16:16). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

That is not true. The word Peter itself derives from Greek Petros masculine term, not petra. In the original Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ, the word for rock is kepha or cephas.

Simon Peter is often called by Paul as Cepha.

The passage would be read as this:

“Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The Aramaic word made no difference. Jesus also addresses Peter as “you” singular. He didn’t say. “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona. For Flesh and Blood has not revealed this to you but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter and upon me I will build my church and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.”

BAM! Another Protestant claim refuted.

 

[Steadfast]

Manny,

Here is what I’m getting at:

If I deny that your church is the one true church and all her doctrine true, I am called a liar, but if you do the same for my church it’s alright.

I am just saying that “liar” is a pretty strong word and that it really doesn’t apply.

In order to use it you would have to demonstrate that a claim was wilfully held counter to a known truth.

Now this may very well be the case in a few instances, but you certainly can’t prove it. In such cases it’s probably best to err on the side of charity.

I find here that I am often in the position of having to show others their hypocrisy, which is ironic being that I am, myself, often hypocritical, but here I go again:

To say that someone who does not believe your church to be the True Church and all her doctrine true is a liar, is tantamount to someone calling you a liar for trotting out the old “30,000 Protestant Denominations Card” and, in fact the latter case has quite a bit more substance to it since on the one hand you could not possible know and on the other, by saying such a thing you are playing fast and loose with the truth at the very least.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Amen and Amen John Calvin. Of course the RCC could never admit to this even though it is very clear in the scriptures because-------

and your friend has been refuted :

 

[ahem]

BAM! Another Protestant claim refuted.

This is one of the reasons I am not beholden to a single stream apart from the river of faith. I don’t have to take it personal when I embrace the whole body because both attacker and attackee are my family.

 

[SyCarl]

How about Real Presence?

This is more varied. Those who believe it is a sacrament, as most mainline Protestant Churches do, believe that there is some sort of Real Presence during Communion. Many are content to leave how their is a Real Presence as a mystery. Some use the language of symbols but in an ambiguous way. For example, that in some way the sacrament conveys the truth that is represented by it. Myself, I am content to receive Communion because Jesus told us too and that how we actually receive Him is a mystery beyond our understanding.

Those who deny sacraments I think would deny a Real Presence.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,

Here is what I’m getting at:

If I deny that your church is the one true church and all her doctrine true, I am called a liar, but if you do the same for my church it’s alright.

Yes a liar indirectly.

I am just saying that “liar” is a pretty strong word and that it really doesn’t apply.

Of course you would admit that you believe the CC professes false doctrine. You believe them to be false because they aren’t explicit in Scripture. Yet, we Catholics believe them to be true because we Catholic believe the Jesus promised to lead His Church to all truth and His Church would not err.

In order to use it you would have to demonstrate that a claim was wilfully held counter to a known truth.

Now this may very well be the case in a few instances, but you certainly can’t prove it. In such cases it’s probably best to err on the side of charity.

History show Christianity has its beginning with the Catholic Church.

I find here that I am often in the position of having to show others their hypocrisy, which is ironic being that I am, myself, often hypocritical, but here I go again:

To say that someone who does not believe your church to be the True Church and all her doctrine true is a liar, is tantamount to someone calling you a liar for trotting out the old “30,000 Protestant Denominations Card” and, in fact the latter case has quite a bit more substance to it since on the one hand you could not possible know and on the other, by saying such a thing you are playing fast and loose with the truth at the very least.

Here is my view on Protestant. They have an imperfect means of salvation. Though they can obtain it if they live out the commandment of God out of love.

 

[ahem]

God’s kingdom is everlasting and from His throne, through his Son, His Eternal Word, God created upholds and governs all that exists: the heavenly places, the angelic hosts, the universe, the earth, every living thing, and mankind.

The church is only in the last category (no angels, animals, et al).

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is one of the reasons I am not beholden to a single stream apart from the river of faith. I don’t have to take it personal when I embrace the whole body because both attacker and attackee are my family.

The Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus spoke of in Matthew 16:18. He build his Church upon Peter. Simon’s name been changed by God, and God the Father revealed it to Simon by the words which Jesus Christ have spoken. The one who sits on Peter’s Chair now is Pope Benedict XVI. Thank God for the Pope. Thank God for Jesus Christ for founding the Catholic Church.

 

[Steadfast]

Yes a liar indirectly.

There is no such thing as an “indirect liar”. Either someone knows something and denies it, or they don’t.

History show Christianity has its beginning with the Catholic Church.

Opinions vary, it has been argued that “The Church” began when God gave Adam and Eve their third son Seth and made him the “Child of Promise” establishing a covenant with him and his offspring forever.

Here is my view on Protestant. They have an imperfect means of salvation. Though they can obtain it if they live out the commandment of God out of love.

That’s nice, but if you say that there are 30,000 Protestant denominations again, I am going to call you a(n indirect) liar.

 

[SyCarl]

Yes a liar indirectly.

Being a liar involves an element of intentionally and knowingly making a false statement. If someone truly believes something to be true, even if it is not, I would think it wrong to call him a liar. At most you could call him mistaken. Some Protestants may actually be liars but I think it would be very much the minority.

 

[abcd]

Manny,

Here is what I’m getting at:

If I deny that your church is the one true church and all her doctrine true, I am called a liar, but if you do the same for my church it’s alright.

I am just saying that “liar” is a pretty strong word and that it really doesn’t apply.

In order to use it you would have to demonstrate that a claim was wilfully held counter to a known truth.

Now this may very well be the case in a few instances, but you certainly can’t prove it. In such cases it’s probably best to err on the side of charity.

I find here that I am often in the position of having to show others their hypocrisy, which is ironic being that I am, myself, often hypocritical, but here I go again:

To say that someone who does not believe your church to be the True Church and all her doctrine true is a liar, is tantamount to someone calling you a liar for trotting out the old “30,000 Protestant Denominations Card” and, in fact the latter case has quite a bit more substance to it since on the one hand you could not possible know and on the other, by saying such a thing you are playing fast and loose with the truth at the very least.

David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900-2000 (ed. David A. Barrett; New York: Oxford University Press, 1982). This work is both comprehensive and painstakingly detailed; and its contents are quite enlightening. However, the reader who turns to this work for validation of the Roman Catholic 25,000-Protestant-denomination argument will be sadly disappointed. What follows is a synopsis of what Barrett’s work in this area really says.

First, Barrett, writing in 1982, does indeed cite a figure of 20,780 denominations in 1980, and projects that there would be as many as 22,190 denominations by 1985. This represents an increase of approximately 270 new denominations each year (Barrett, 17). What the Roman Catholic who cites this figure does not tell us (most likely because he does not know) is that most of these denominations are non-Protestant.

Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15): (1) Roman Catholicism, which accounts for 223 denominations; (2) Protestant, which accounts for 8,196 denominations; (3) Orthodox, which accounts for 580 denominations; (4) Non-White Indigenous, which accounts for 10,956 denominations; (5) Anglican, which accounts for 240 denominations; (6) Marginal Protestant, which includes Jehovah s Witnesses, Mormons, New Age groups, and all cults (Barrett, 14), and which accounts for 1,490 denominations; and (7) Catholic (Non-Roman), which accounts for 504 denominations.

According to Barrett’s calculations, there are 8,196 denominations within Protestantism not 25,000 as Roman Catholic apologists so cavalierly and carelessly claim.

 

[Mannyfit75]

God’s kingdom is everlasting and from His throne, through his Son, His Eternal Word, God created upholds and governs all that exists: the heavenly places, the angelic hosts, the universe, the earth, every living thing, and mankind.

The church is only in the last category (no angels, animals, et al).

Really so you deny the passage of Colossians 1:12-20 then:

Let us give thanks to the Father, for having made you worthy to share the lot of the saints in light. He rescue us from the power of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of his beloved Son. Through Him we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creatures. In him everything in heaven and on earth was created, things visible and invisible. All were created through him; all were created for him. He is before all else that is. In him everything continues in being. It is He who is the head of the body, the church! he who is in the beginning, the first born of the dead, so that primacy may be his in everything.

You said the Church is only the last catagory… My friend, Jesus is the head of the Church. He is also the Body of the Church. You cannot separate the Church and Jesus Christ

**You Protestants need to stop divorcing the Church and Jesus Christ!! GEEZE!!! **

 

[Steadfast]

Being a liar involves an element of intentionally and knowingly making a false statement. If someone truly believes something to be true, even if it is not, I would think it wrong to call him a liar. At most you could call him mistaken. Some Protestants may actually be liars but I think it would be very much the minority.

And Manny may actually believe that there are 30,000 Protestant denominations but I seriously doubt he’s counted them.

It’s a convenient number, it moves around too; I have also heard that there are 60,000.

I often wonder what the criteria are, what, according to his understanding, constitutes a “Protestant Denomination”.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Being a liar involves an element of intentionally and knowingly making a false statement. If someone truly believes something to be true, even if it is not, I would think it wrong to call him a liar. At most you could call him mistaken. Some Protestants may actually be liars but I think it would be very much the minority.

Then why do your Protestant brothers and sister tell us that the Catholic Church is pagan and whore of babylon? Are these true statement? If they aren’t. They are lies…

 

[ahem]

Barrett identifies seven major ecclesiastical “blocs” under which these 22,190 distinct denominations fall (Barrett, 14-15): (1) Roman Catholicism, which accounts for 223 denominations; (2) Protestant, which accounts for 8,196 denominations; (3) Orthodox, which accounts for 580 denominations; (4) Non-White Indigenous, which accounts for 10,956 denominations; (5) Anglican, which accounts for 240 denominations; (6) Marginal Protestant, which includes Jehovah s Witnesses, Mormons, New Age groups, and all cults (Barrett, 14), and which accounts for 1,490 denominations; and (7) Catholic (Non-Roman), which accounts for 504 denominations.

I am curious as to why Non-White Indigenous criteria are? For instance, would African American congregations not connected with White traditions qualify? Just wondering–don’t take me to be contentious.

 

[Mannyfit75]

And Manny may actually believe that there are 30,000 Protestant denominations but I seriously doubt he’s counted them.

It’s a convenient number, it moves around too; I have also heard that there are 60,000.

I often wonder what the criteria are, what, according to his understanding, constitutes a “Protestant Denomination”.

Here is the source:

The Facts and Stats on “33,000 Denominations”
The 20,000 30,000 numbers and David Barrett’s statistics Part II

Read it and weep.

 

[ahem]

Then why do your Protestant brothers and sister tell us that the Catholic Church is pagan and whore of babylon? Are these true statement? If they aren’t. They are lies…

It’s a good thing not all Protestants believe this. Even many of those who do, however, are part of the larger family of God, as are Catholics, and others who are neither Protestant or Catholic.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It’s a good thing not all Protestants believe this. Even many of those who do, however, are part of the larger family of God, as are Catholics, and others who are neither Protestant or Catholic.

here is another Protestant lie. The Catholic Church is not the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 yrs ago.

 

[Steadfast]

I think there are five Protestant denominations:

1. Lutheran
2. Anglican
3. Reformed
4. Baptist
5. Other

I would say that they agree fundamentally on at least three of the Refomration Sola’s (at least broadly understood) and are distinctly Trinitarian in theology. Their differences are often profound but are probably about concurrent with competing intra-mural positions within Catholicism on certain theological loci.

 

[geraldffff]

I’ve read these, and many classics and histories. I am also intimate with the stories of Athanasius, Chrysostom all the way up to Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and MLKJr.

I have no compulsion to chop up the faith. I truly celebrate the many expressions of the kingdom of God.

Interesting one would list MLKJr who agreed with the idea that females should abort their children for economic reasons. I do not think MLKJr can compare in anyway with Augustine who read in the original languages the writers who were there at the beginning of the Catholic Church. There are truths in factual history that one should not revise if they ever hope to know Truth. Anyone who read Augustine with an honest inquiring heart cannot deny the Catholic Church was alive then and continues to this day being lead by Pope Benedict .