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LittleSoldier
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Thank you!
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Thank you!
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1voice
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GaryTaylor
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Good thing the US “Catholic” Bishops finally spoke out or we probly would have had another 100 years of silence from the “other” churchs.
Do you have this list of millions of women? Because the list of Catholic Women who disagree with Obamas administration does exist. Helen M. Alvaré professor of law at George Mason University actually has the statistics and facts. which Obama, Pelosi the team have distorted. And of course their you can read her history with Rome and the Truth of the matter today. Or you can listen to propaganda and “try” to promote it here.
What pass?
It all started when the Protestants opened pandoras box last century. And “some” actually thought they knew better than Christs Church the CC.
Foolish of them wasn’t it, but hey monday morning quarterbacks always have perfect records. Then came the 60’s and the summer of sex drugs and Rock and Roll in America. Its all well documented. 61 no prayer in the schools, 73 abortion legal. And all this in a predominately “protestant” country of the US of A. So if you want to play the finger pointing game, point it their first. Perhaps a historic reading of “how” the USA came to exist will shine more light on the situation.Suggested reading is the CCC and you will gain knowledge to what Communion is, Cafeteria anything isn’t a good indication of anything except “un-informed thinking” and wrong thinking at that.
And the entire “Protestant Church” has been going along with this for a “century” now, along with every other church except the Catholic Church. This “theological flaw” dates back to the first century in correct Catholic Theology
Thats what happens when you build new modern churchs with new modern theology, you result with new modern abominations, by faltering from a tried and proven method taught from day one.Nancy Pelosi doesn’t speak for the Catholic Church nor does she speak for “ALL” women.
She speaks for the corrupt political agenda and faltering theology of a corrupt Protestant President who has become a known walking lie.
And how wrong she is and how dare she do that, and suggest some illusion of reality through lies.And for this ridiculously small percentage who by medical logic fall into a small catagory and would like to present an illogical case how women are literally perishing on the streets of America because they can’t recieve their contraceptives. Its another lie which cannot be substanciated. No facts exist to this…NONE!
Millions of Class Action lawsuits are in court “today” through the use of the Pill and Abortives which are medically dangerous and always have been. The idea this is some healthy lifestyle is but another lie.
The yearly/monthly cost which BTW you can call you local CVS to confirm, is another lie of the Obama Admin and those who salute our President in incorrect un-American thinking.
And this non existant ghost who somehow died of a cyst has never been located:shrug: Needless to say medicare has been paying for this right along, along with welfare and disability. And for those who chose this lifestyle a problem has “never” existed in the USA. Until our wonderous President decided to ignore the US Constitution in his obvious illusion of pride and other human faults and “include” those who actually DO follow Catholic Church teaching.
Protestants and Cafeteria Catholics have all been fine until Obama crossed the CC line and the CC became involved and spoke up.
Thats the Truth.Amazing how your posts somehow suggests a rigid religious following exists in your congregation, others but not the CC. Another FACT is their are lukewarm Christians in EVERY aspect of Christianity.
May God have mercy on Nancy Pelosi and the rest of the Obama teams abomination of a plan against human liberty and religious freedom which the Catholic Church is leading the way to correct, in case you haven’t noticed. What everyone else is doing as usual is following and playing monday morning quarterback.
Peace
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1voice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
You dont think that there are millions of women that see this demonstration of “openness” as you describe it … as passively affirming a cafeteria attitude toward abortion.
54% of Catholic voters … voted for Obama.
Without the Catholic vote … Obama would not have been elected.
Heres a quote from Catholicism.org :
Maybe, some among these millions of Catholics, who have just added another grave sin to their dark souls, would have thought twice about what they were doing if pro-abortion politicians who claim to be Catholic had been publicly excommunicated by their bishops.
Originally Posted by 1voice
You dont think that there are millions of women that see this demonstration of “openness” as you describe it … as passively affirming a cafeteria attitude toward abortion.
Obamas voting record and his own words proved him to be one of the strongest advocates for abortion in the Senate.
54% of Catholic voters … voted for Obama.
Without the Catholic vote … Obama would not have been elected.
Heres a quote from Catholicism.org :
Maybe, some among these millions of Catholics, who have just added another grave sin to their dark souls, would have thought twice about what they were doing if pro-abortion politicians who claim to be Catholic had been publicly excommunicated by their bishops.
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andrewstx
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They call it “age of accountability” and you are correct, it’s nowhere in the bible.
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1voice
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Do as we say. Not as we do.
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1voice
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The phrase is a succinct way of describing the concept … You know … sort of like … the phrase “Blessed Trinity.” Which isnt in the bible either.
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Originally Posted by Cat Herder
The “Christening ceremony” is nowhere in the Bible just like the “age of reason” that you make the children wait for before they can be baptized.
Thats the same sort of mind trick that I see Mormons try to get away with all the time on this forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder
The “Christening ceremony” is nowhere in the Bible just like the “age of reason” that you make the children wait for before they can be baptized.
Nice try…
Thats the same sort of mind trick that I see Mormons try to get away with all the time on this forum.
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SteveVH
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We need to be very careful here. Achieving salvation through works is unbiblical. There is no salvation without grace. In other words, no one can attain heaven through good works while rejecting the grace offered to us through the saving sacrifice of Christ. I don’t think that is what you are trying to say, but your first sentence could certainly be interpreted that way. Nor can one attain heaven by saying “I believe” and then ignoring the hungry, the naked and the poor. Our faith must certainly be lived. I look at it this way. A car is pretty much worthless unless it has fuel to make it run. And fuel alone will not transport us. We need both if we are going to get anywhere.
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andrewstx
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1voice, please quote the scripture book chapter and verse that uses the phrase “age of accountbility”, just one.The phrase is a succinct way of describing the concept … You know … sort of like … the phrase “Blessed Trinity.” Which isnt in the bible either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder
The “Christening ceremony” is nowhere in the Bible just like the “age of reason” that you make the children wait for before they can be baptized.
Nice try…
Thats the same sort of mind trick that I see Mormons try to get away with all the time on this forum.
I think this is an example of evengelical Christians deciding the theology first, looking for proof texts to back them up, and ingnoring the other verses that run counter to their teachings. Like the verses that mention entire families being baptised.
Just as they ignore the scriptures that say baptism is for the forgiveness of sin, and turn it upside down to claim you are forgiven instantly when you "get saved"and if you want you may be baptised as obidience as only a symbol.
My whole family is evangelical, mostly Baptist and I have heard this for years, literally.
They call themselves “Christian” only as well, implying they are the only Christians and if you don’t “get saved”, you are not Christian. I’m sorry but I’m at least as much Christian as they.
They think that “getting saved” without the sacraments is all that makes you Christian, and the sacraments which they call ordinances are nothing but sybolism.
Feh
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1voice
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All of a sudden… Sola Scriptura!!
… Tell you what … right after you provide the same for the word “Catholic”.
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LittleSoldier
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Thank you for the clarification. Yes - we need the grace of God in order to obtain heaven (I posted this in my post #481 - the first of the two-part post I wrote; you responded to the second part which resulted in my statement being taken out of context). This is what I wrote:
"It is true that we cannot enter heaven without God’s grace…"
I thought what I wrote was clear but I was obviously mistaken. We all deserve damnation and it is only because God is merciful and loving and has given us grace and because of Jesus’ sacrifice that we can enter heaven. All the righteous people who died before Jesus’ sacrifice did not go to heaven. The gates were closed even to those who had performed good works - they were closed to all human beings. And that is why Jesus went to hell after His death, although it wasn’t really hell but what is termed Abraham’s Bosom.
When Jesus was crucified and then resurrected we were then given the opportunity to go to heaven. Without God’s grace nothing we could ever do, no matter how good, would be enough. But with God’s grace our works show our love for and obedience to God. That is how we get to heaven - with His grace and our actions (which show where we want to go).
I would also like to point out that Catholics do not rely solely on the bible.
I apologize for any confusion about my position and appreciate your helping me explain. (I have posted that I have brain damage and one of the problems associated with it is language processing). I hope that what I have written here agrees with Church teaching. If it does not, Church teaching trumps anything I write and anything I write is absolutely incorrect.
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LittleSoldier
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1voice, I am still waiting for a response to post #480 in which I requested book, chapter, and verse from the bible to back up the assertions you made in your post (#446) to which I was responding.All of a sudden… Sola Scriptura!!
… Tell you what … right after you provide the same for the word “Catholic”.
This is what you wrote in your post #446:
“So what does that prove? Passover was a family celebration … for two thousand years.
Every devout Jew was at home, with family celebrating Jesus death and resurrection. … that was the purpose of the tradition … Everyone participated … throughout Israel. … Jesus was no different … In that same family setting Jesus revealed, for the first time, what the tradition really meant. He simply, clearly “explained the parable” … He revealed the secret that … Every Jew was celebrating the communion table. They just didnt know it. but… “To as many as accepted him … he gave the right to become children of God” and to really understand what the celebration of Passover meant. He never said to stop doing it this way because … now, all of a sudden, it was way too holy to touch … He said “do this” but from now on do it in memory of me… and realize … what the bread and wine is really all about.”
Will you please respond to my post by providing what I requested? This is now the second time I have requested biblical backup from you regarding your assertions made in post #446.
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LittleSoldier
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Addendum to post #498:
Just to clarify, this is the first statement I wrote in post #481:
"Grace is God’s life in us. Without it we cannot enter heaven…"
I hope this clears up any confusion. Without God’s grace we are absolutely lost (and I love God and thank Him for His grace - His grace is loving and beautiful and it amazes me that He has given me, a sinning and unworthy being, such a wondrous gift). :heaven:
Just to clarify, this is the first statement I wrote in post #481:
"Grace is God’s life in us. Without it we cannot enter heaven…"
I hope this clears up any confusion. Without God’s grace we are absolutely lost (and I love God and thank Him for His grace - His grace is loving and beautiful and it amazes me that He has given me, a sinning and unworthy being, such a wondrous gift). :heaven:
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LittleSoldier
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The CCC is a guidebook which is very helpful in teaching Catholics how to better adhere to their faith, how to show their faith, and how to act in a Christian manner. It is *not *“Do as we say. Not as we do.” but “If you wish to understand Church teaching and learn how to act in specific situations as a Catholic *should *act, the answer is here - here is help for you.”
I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion (if it is that) that you have posted here.
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exnihilo
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It is likely the key disagreement and the more I’ve thought on this it is a rather strange problem. I’m not sure that faith is used equivocally so much as misused. I would contend there is no such thing as true faith. There is either faith or no faith. The idea of true faith is to indicate actual faith. The phrase should not have any theological significance. The real issue is how is faith determined? I would contend it is determined by what we do.
If someone were to come up to me and say the banks are going to crash today whether I had faith in that person would be determined by what I did. If I went to the bank and withdrew my money I had faith in them. If I did nothing I did not have faith in them. True faith in the sense often used would here be just faith where I went and acted as if I trusted the person who gave me this message.
It seems to me many people want to reduce the issue of salvation to intellectual assent. Scripture is very clear that some who recognize God as being God will not be saved. So holding to the belief that God exists seems insufficient. No one is doubting that Adam believed God existed. The issue for him was disobedience. We can say that act of disobedience was a lack of faith but Scripture does not say as soon as Adam thought to sin he was in trouble.
Of course Christ later does tell us that what is in our hearts condemns us. This seems to me a call to a higher level of morality. It would seem that in heading Christ’s words some have taken it too far. What we do is certainly important. What we think is certainly important. The most ideal situation is to think and do good, not to just think good or to just do good. Like with children we were first conditioned to do what is right. Then we were instructed to do what is right for the right reasons. Christ explained this to us by proclaiming the foundation of the law being rooted in love of God.
This is entirely consistent with moral understanding in our criminal law wherein we have both actions and intent. We judge a person’s actions in light of what we perceive to be their intent. But we also judge actions regardless of intent.
The faith alone issue seems to me to be basing theology on what might best be called an edge case. There are situations, like the thief on the cross, where a person can not do any works as a demonstration of their faith. He was saved in that moment by his faith. He couldn’t do any good works. But the faith alone theology has what has to be stranger edge cases. It has to dismiss its standard for children and the mentally retarded or consign them all to Hell. Of course that theology can be fixed with stipulations on its standard. But I think the nuanced version of faith and works salvation makes far more sense and does less violence to scripture, which is explicit that faith alone is not sufficient, than the nuanced faith alone theology.
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1voice
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I see irony and point it out. If Irony offends… I dont know what to tell you.
If you are this thin skinned … why do you engage in religious debate?
If you are this thin skinned … why do you engage in religious debate?
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1voice
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Without 54% ofThe Catholic vote … Barack Obama would not be the President.
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Publisher
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LittleSoldier
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What does that have to do with what I posted? Absolutely nothing.
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LittleSoldier
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Please be careful. What is presented as Church teaching in the post to which you responded may not be Church teaching at all. Faith is much more complicated than the way it has been described in that post. One of the problems in any religious forum is that the teaching of any church can be misrepresented and probably usually not intentionally.
There is faith and there is hope and there is charity, and among these charity is the greatest. That I know. I am learning about faith now but what I have learned so far is (again) that it is complicated. I think the word “faith” in English is like the word “love” in English - one word is used to denote such differing concepts that it loses so much when used to communicate. As Edwin says, it is equivocal. Faith, hope, and love are bound together - this is Church teaching (from my limited and admittedly poor understanding). This is NOT missing in Catholicism! What I have been saying is that faith in Jesus can be missing in someone who has never heard of Him. But that person’s good works show his faith and love and that, along with the grace that God gives freely to all human beings, can open the doors of heaven for him.
This is what Edwin said:
“The traditional Catholic position is that one can have supernatural faith (the faith that is a gift of God) and not have love.”
How can that be? How can one have faith in God and not have love? I have never heard of this concept before.
Here is a link to the website I am reading. You can probably understand better than I, at this point (and I hope you can understand why I say it is complicated):
newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm
Lord, please grant us what we need each day in bread and wisdom. Amen.
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