Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

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Please be careful. What is presented as Church teaching in the post to which you responded may not be Church teaching at all. Faith is much more complicated than the way it has been described in that post. One of the problems in any religious forum is that the teaching of any church can be misrepresented and probably usually not intentionally.

There is faith and there is hope and there is charity, and among these charity is the greatest. That I know. I am learning about faith now but what I have learned so far is (again) that it is complicated. I think the word “faith” in English is like the word “love” in English - one word is used to denote such differing concepts that it loses so much when used to communicate. As Edwin says, it is equivocal.

Here is a link to the website I am reading. You can probably understand better than I, at this point (and I hope you can understand why I say it is complicated):

newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm

Lord, please grant us what we need each day in bread and wisdom. Amen.
I think “faith” is much like “love” in it’s more about “what we do” to exemplify “faith” than what we profess…love is a verb…one cannot “love” unless it is exhibited in one’s life…the same with faith…a faith that does not exhibit itself in how we behave…speak…do…is not much of a “faith”…faith is not intellectual ascent…it is more of a “verb”…much like love.
 
I think “faith” is much like “love” in it’s more about “what we do” to exemplify “faith” than what we profess…love is a verb…one cannot “love” unless it is exhibited in one’s life…the same with faith…a faith that does not exhibit itself in how we behave…speak…do…is not much of a “faith”…faith is not intellectual ascent…it is more of a “verb”…much like love.
I’ve read what you’ve written over and over and I think that I am beginning to understand what you are saying. I think what you’re saying is that it is not enough to “talk the talk” but one must also “walk the walk.” If this is what you are saying you are absolutely correct.

But I was wrong about the ability to have faith without love. Satan has faith in God and hates Him. There is certainly no love there. And people who worship Satan may have faith in God and hate Him, too. And I get this picture in my mind that I picked up from somewhere of a man staring up into the sky and shaking his fist in rage at God. He believes; he has faith in God but he certainly is not loving Him.

When I profess my faith (as I do when I am at Mass or when I say the Rosary and some other prayers) it is an action. I would perform the exact same action if someone were holding a gun to my head and who had said, “Do you have faith in God? If you say “yes” I am going to kill you.” I hope I would not hesitate. And my profession of my faith in God (which is also an absolute trust in His love and mercy for me and for my murderer) would probably be the most important action I could ever take.

There is faith that God gives us and there is faith that we can find using our own intellectual power. I think they are not the same kind of faith but they are both faith. And I think there are many more kinds of faith.

I once knew a man who had a heart attack and because of it his brain did not receive the oxygen it needed for quite some time. He could not communicate love or faith to others but I think he still loved and had faith. He couldn’t even communicate his very basic needs.

And then there is me. When I enter the church I genuflect before the tabernacle - not just down on one knee but completely down with my head resting on the floor, in subjugation to God, in love to Him and to acknowledge my faith in Him.

Which of us has the stronger faith and love - the man with the brain damage or me? The one who can express her faith and love or the one who can’t?

Please accept my apology if I have misread your post.
 
I see irony and point it out. If Irony offends… I dont know what to tell you.

If you are this thin skinned … why do you engage in religious debate?
What offends me is that I ask you to provide back-up for assertions you have made and I am ignored.
 
I’ve read what you’ve written over and over and I think that I am beginning to understand what you are saying. I think what you’re saying is that it is not enough to “talk the talk” but one must also “walk the walk.” If this is what you are saying you are absolutely correct.

But I was wrong about the ability to have faith without love. Satan has faith in God and hates Him. There is certainly no love there. And people who worship Satan may have faith in God and hate Him, too. And I get this picture in my mind that I picked up from somewhere of a man staring up into the sky and shaking his fist in rage at God. He believes; he has faith in God but he certainly is not loving Him.

When I profess my faith (as I do when I am at Mass or when I say the Rosary and some other prayers) it is an action. I would perform the exact same action if someone were holding a gun to my head and who had said, “Do you have faith in God? If you say “yes” I am going to kill you.” I hope I would not hesitate. And my profession of my faith in God (which is also an absolute trust in His love and mercy for me and for my murderer) would probably be the most important action I could ever take.

There is faith that God gives us and there is faith that we can find using our own intellectual power. I think they are not the same kind of faith but they are both faith. And I think there are many more kinds of faith.

I once knew a man who had a heart attack and because of it his brain did not receive the oxygen it needed for quite some time. He could not communicate love or faith to others but I think he still loved and had faith. He couldn’t even communicate his very basic needs.

And then there is me. When I enter the church I genuflect before the tabernacle - not just down on one knee but completely down with my head resting on the floor, in subjugation to God, in love to Him and to acknowledge my faith in Him.

Which of us has the stronger faith and love - the man with the brain damage or me? The one who can express her faith and love or the one who can’t?

Please accept my apology if I have misread your post.
I am reminded of a story…a mother told her son to sit down and be quiet…he refused…she made him finally to sit down…when asked he said…“I was sitting down on the outside…BUT STANDING UP ON THE INSIDE.”

To answer your question…who has the most faith between you and a man brain damaged? The one who obeys the Father on how he treats his neighbor.

Jesus told a parable of two sons. He asked his sons to go out and work in the vineyard…the first son said “Of course father, I’ll go work in the vineyard”…but didn’t…the other son refused and told his father “No, I will not work in the vineyard”…but after thinking about it…went to work in the vineyard…“Which man obeyed his father?”

Our modern concept of faith usually boils down to “intellectual ascent”…faith that brings us into relationship with God is about doing…loving…trusting…“faith” is how our lives are ordered…how we live in expectant trust that God is in control…even though when all around us the world is going to hell in a handbasket…when our lives are in turmoil…when our lives are in disarray…there is One who is Faithful and True. The “satan” has no such “faith”.

Faith is about doing…a lot like love…to act unloving is not to exhibit love…to be unfaithful is not to be faithful.

The Good News is there is One who loves us and who is faithful to us always…our “faith” is how we respond to that love…it is exhibited in how we live…not just what we believe…“What are the two greatest commandments…Love the Lord your God…and love your neighbor as yourself…the Law and the Prophets” are summed up in those two commands…they are joined at the hip…“If a man say he loves God yet hates his brother…he is a liar.”…Love…faith…are “verbs”…they require doing…not just “saying”.
 
It is likely the key disagreement and the more I’ve thought on this it is a rather strange problem. I’m not sure that faith is used equivocally so much as misused. I would contend there is no such thing as true faith. There is either faith or no faith.
I’m not sure what you mean by this. “True faith” is just a way of clarifying that there may be other things called faith which really (in the theological sense) aren’t.

Who would you say is misusing the term? The Protestant claim is that what Catholics call “dead faith” (faith not formed by love) is not really (in the theological sense) faith at all. (Hence, not “true faith.”) What such “faith” (whether the “faith of demons” or the faith of human beings who lack love) is missing is not something external to the nature of faith but an essential part of the only faith that matters from a theological perspective.
The idea of true faith is to indicate actual faith. The phrase should not have any theological significance.
That’s the Protestant claim in a nutshell–faith that doesn’t express itself in love has no theological significance. The traditional Catholic view is that such faith does have significance–what it is lacking is love.
If someone were to come up to me and say the banks are going to crash today whether I had faith in that person would be determined by what I did.
I don’t think that’s a good enough analogy, because it doesn’t capture the faith/love issue. One can truly believe that God exists (as Satan does–though Aquinas would say that Satan’s belief in God doesn’t meet the basic definition of “faith”–more on that in a later post) while opposing Him.

Here’s a more elaborate version of the analogy. Suppose George Bailey (in It’s a Wonderful Life) comes to you and says, “There’s going to be a run on the bank tomorrow, but here’s what I’d like you to do to help me save the bank from closing.” Having faith in George Bailey (in a sense analogous to saviing/living faith) would mean not only believing that there was going to be a run on the bank but helping him in his attempt to save people from losing their lifetime savings. But suppose you are Mr. Potter or one of Mr. Potter’s minions–you believe in the information you have been given but you use it for your own selfish purposes, to make as much as you can and leave everyone else holding the bag. Did you have “faith” in George Bailey?

So I would argue that the word is in fact equivocal.
It seems to me many people want to reduce the issue of salvation to intellectual assent. Scripture is very clear that some who recognize God as being God will not be saved. So holding to the belief that God exists seems insufficient.
Everyone agrees on this. What we don’t agree on is the precise sense in which the word “faith” can be used for someone who has “intellectual assent” but not love.
The faith alone issue seems to me to be basing theology on what might best be called an edge case.
But if I’m right, that’s not really the case. The point of sola fide isn’t really the “edge case” but the motivating power of faith. Does faith in itself have the power to make someone do good works (because it is naturally and necessarily joined to love) or does there have to be an additional “step” as it were.

The practical difference can be seen in how Catholics and Protestants preach the Gospel, particularly to those who are baptized and profess Christianity. Protestants say, “Believe in Jesus.” Catholics say, “Go to confession and practice works of charity.”

The Protestant method seems to work better, by and large. I don’t think either side is heretical–indeed, I agree that there are huge problems with many aspects of Protestant soteriology. But on this key point, it seems that the Protestant approach helps people come into a living relationship with Jesus, while the Catholic approach seems largely helpless in the face of “nominal” or “dead” religion.

Edwin
 
Everyone agrees on this. What we don’t agree on is the precise sense in which the word “faith” can be used for someone who has “intellectual assent” but not love.

But if I’m right, that’s not really the case. The point of sola fide isn’t really the “edge case” but the motivating power of faith. Does faith in itself have the power to make someone do good works (because it is naturally and necessarily joined to love) or does there have to be an additional “step” as it were.

The practical difference can be seen in how Catholics and Protestants preach the Gospel, particularly to those who are baptized and profess Christianity. Protestants say, “Believe in Jesus.” Catholics say, “Go to confession and practice works of charity.”

The Protestant method seems to work better, by and large. I don’t think either side is heretical–indeed, I agree that there are huge problems with many aspects of Protestant soteriology. But on this key point, it seems that the Protestant approach helps people come into a living relationship with Jesus, while the Catholic approach seems largely helpless in the face of “nominal” or “dead” religion.

Edwin
What does grace have to do with any of this?
 
I’ve read what you’ve written over and over and I think that I am beginning to understand what you are saying. I think what you’re saying is that it is not enough to “talk the talk” but one must also “walk the walk.” If this is what you are saying you are absolutely correct.
Right. And, again, both traditional Protestants and traditional Catholics agree on this. We all agree that the faith that saves is the faith that works through love. We disagree on the rather technical point of whether the problem is that the faith in question isn’t “real faith” or that it lacks something else (love). This is important because it affects how we evangelize. Catholics have trouble calling people to faith in Jesus unless they are openly unbelievers. I think that this problem can be addressed–JPII’s language about “continual conversion” was a huge step in the right direction (and a much-needed correction to the shallow evangelical idea that conversion is a one-time event), as were Raniero Cantalamessa’s 2005 Advent sermons preached before Pope Benedict XVI.
But I was wrong about the ability to have faith without love. Satan has faith in God and hates Him. There is certainly no love there.
Yes, that’s the classic case. But Aquinas mixes things up a bit by insisting that in fact demons can’t have faith in the theological sense. This hands back to the Protestants what could be a very strong Catholic argument (though of course Aquinas didn’t know anything about Protestants, since they didn’t exist in his day!).
And people who worship Satan may have faith in God and hate Him, too. And I get this picture in my mind that I picked up from somewhere of a man staring up into the sky and shaking his fist in rage at God. He believes; he has faith in God but he certainly is not loving Him.
Right. I don’t think we have to imagine people actually worshiping Satan to imagine people who believe that God exists but do not love Him.

For Aquinas, faith is a middle term between knowledge and opinion–it has the same kind of rational basis as opinion (but bear in mind that he means well-founded opinion, just just a hunch), but it has the certainty of knowledge. This certainty comes from the will. Hence, someone who has faith in this sense must love revealed truth in some sense–otherwise such a person would not choose to believe. Satan doesn’t have faith, because Satan actually has direct knowledge of revealed truth. Also, for Aquinas the existence of God is not necessarily a matter of faith–you can know rationally that God exists, although most people don’t have the capacity or the time to acquire this knowledge.
There is faith that God gives us and there is faith that we can find using our own intellectual power. I think they are not the same kind of faith but they are both faith.
The traditional Catholic view, expressed by Aquinas and reaffirmed at the Council of Trent, is that doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, etc., cannot be believed except by the faith that God gives. The more common Protestant view, on the other hand, is that one can believe in these doctrines simply as human opinions. So in that sense Catholics value “faith alone” more highly than Protestants do. Catholics believe in sola fide (by faith alone) but not sola fides (the possibility of faith existing alone). For Catholics it’s the other way round.

Accepting your statement that you haven’t thought much about these matters before, I’m impressed by how quickly you have perceived the key issues!

God bless,

Edwin
 
What does grace have to do with any of this?
Catholics and Protestants agree that saving faith is impossible without grace. They also, obviously, agree that one can have “dead faith” without saving grace. To go beyond this gets us into a discussion of the different kinds of grace and the different ways the word is used.

Edwin
 
Acts 9:31 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Now the church had peace throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria; and was edified, walking in the fear of the Lord, and was filled with the consolation of the Holy Ghost.

Now was that capital “C” Catholic or small “c” catholic?
 
Acts 9:31 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Now the church had peace throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria; and was edified, walking in the fear of the Lord, and was filled with the consolation of the Holy Ghost.

Now was that capital “C” Catholic or small “c” catholic?
That depends on whether or not there is such a thing as small c.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
I see irony and point it out. If Irony offends… I dont know what to tell you.

If you are this thin skinned … why do you engage in religious debate?
What offends me is that I ask you to provide back-up for assertions you have made and I am ignored.
I dont intentionally ignore. I just get busy with stuff and cant respond sometimes. What specifically do you think I did not back up?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
So what does that prove? Passover was a family celebration … for two thousand years.
Every devout Jew was at home, with family celebrating Jesus death and resurrection. … that was the purpose of the tradition … Everyone participated … throughout Israel. … Jesus was no different … In that same family setting Jesus revealed, for the first time, what the tradition really meant. He simply, clearly “explained the parable” … He revealed the secret that … Every Jew was celebrating the communion table. They just didnt know it. but… “To as many as accepted him … he gave the right to become children of God” and to really understand what the celebration of Passover meant. He never said to stop doing it this way because … now, all of a sudden, it was way too holy to touch … He said “do this” but from now on do it in memory of me… and realize … what the bread and wine is really all about.
Please back this up with Scripture; book, chapter, and verse please. I am eagerly waiting for your response.
The Feast of Passover was a Jewish feast established when Moses led the people out of Egypt. The entire meal was a type or foreshadow of Christ leading us out of the bondage of sin… Jesus is described as the Lamb that was slain and the Lamb of God. The Blood of the Lamb on the doorposts drove away death and preserved life within. The bread without leaven (without sin) was to be pierced and striped and broken … and wrapped in a white linen cloth … and then unwrapped.

It was no coincidence that it was at the Passover meal that Jesus said … This bread (the passover bread) … is my body. This wine (the passover wine) … is my blood.

Here is the description of the meaning of Passover … and the scriptures that are associated with Jesus as the one that Passover foretold.
There are 33 scriptural references toward the bottom of the page.
 
I understand that the phrasing of the question is poor, and possibly offensive, as other posters have pointed out. Of course the questioner presumably meant the Roman Catholic church in the West.

I am a Quaker and we are not, technically, protestant (i.e. liking or following Luther or Calvin and co.) but we do think the ‘church’, that is, the earliest Xian groupings, transformed into something rather different, certainly within the first couple hundred years. By the time of Augustine, there is heresy (Donatism) and schisms and, iirc, attendant loss of life (Xian killing Xian). Not a good sign, I’d say.

There is an interesting book surveying the whole scene, The Pilgrim Church, by EH Broadbent, 1931.

The first church council, at Nicaea, in 325 already represents a degree of accommodation to the state not found in Paul, or the original group. The later affects the churches’ positions on wars, for example.

The increasing authority of bishops has also been mentioned. But the KJV-only approach of some protestants is not a sufficient response or solution.

Issues of faith and works seem to have gotten clouded, and from a quaker POV, the ‘solution’ of Luther–and esp. Calvin-- is not satisfactory, either.

In closing, let me say that casting stones at other Xians, accusing their denomination of ‘going bad’ is not very productive. Many of the problems of the developing church were generic, not “Roman Catholic.” For example, many mainstream protestants have upheld the authority of bishops, and in Nazi Germany, some ‘evangelical’ (Lutheran) bishops became part of the problem (for which the church, after the war, apologized). Larger groups with more hierarchy and structure, with economic interests, sources of financing dependent on the state, and so on, have inherent problems, so it’s a little unfair to speak of a Roman Catholic issue, as opposed to an Orthodox or Anglican or Lutheran one.

These are just some thoughts offered in an irenic spirit, and I hope, with a catholic approach.
 
Acts 9:31 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Now the church had peace throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria; and was edified, walking in the fear of the Lord, and was filled with the consolation of the Holy Ghost.

Now was that capital “C” Catholic or small “c” catholic?
the words Kath (throughout) holes (whole) has nothing to do with Catholic as understood by Ignatius (early 2nd C) :rolleyes:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25
Acts 9:31 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
Now the church had peace throughout all Judea, and Galilee, and Samaria; and was edified, walking in the fear of the Lord, and was filled with the consolation of the Holy Ghost.

Now was that capital “C” Catholic or small “c” catholic?
the words Kath (throughout) holes (whole) has nothing to do with Catholic as understood by Ignatius (early 2nd C) :rolleyes:
👍
 
The phrase is a succinct way of describing the concept … You know … sort of like … the phrase “Blessed Trinity.” Which isnt in the bible either.
The concept of the Trinity is there. John 1:1 is there. But there’s nothing in the Bible to support the concept of an age of accountability or a christening ceremony.

You boast about how biblical you are, now back it up.
 
Catholics and Protestants agree that saving faith is impossible without grace. They also, obviously, agree that one can have “dead faith” without saving grace. To go beyond this gets us into a discussion of the different kinds of grace and the different ways the word is used.
The word means a free unmerited gift of salvation. All Protestants claim that. Yet I see the Protestants trying to condition grace on faith–which means it’s not free.
 
I saw you guy were discussion about faith and decided to chip in, faith ofcourse may refer to something intellectual, a belief in existence, it may go deeper a belief in a person, a belief in his ideas and the other side of the coin is trusting in that which you believe, the obedience of faith may rightly follow, personally this is what faith implies. But luther didnt like the idea of a complex faith so he choose one part of faith and said that is what was neccesary for salvation. For luther all you need is trust, the obedience and accepting revealed truth isnt really neccesary and calvin built on his system. This is what came to be called the ALONE faith and the reformers decleared over and against the church that all that is needed is this fecud**cial faith. This led to the arguement that faith, true faith, saving faith is more than the what the reformers called an alone faith thus the church decleared that fecud*cial faith (which is truly faith) cannot justify until it is completed and made perfect in love thus there is a neccesary obedience to faith.
Pls note the above is my personal thought on the issue and i dont claim to know all about this issue, any correction,e.t.c will be welcomed. Peace he remains lord of all.
Ubenedictus
 
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