Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

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1voice said:
Truth erases confusion.

Catholic Christening

chris·ten·ing   [kris-uh-ning, kris-ning]
noun
1.
the ceremony of baptism, especially as accompanied by the giving of a name to a child.
Infant baptism is the practice of baptising infants or young children. In theological discussions, the practice is sometimes referred to as paedobaptism or pedobaptism from the Greek pais meaning “child.” The practice is sometimes contrasted with what is called “believer’s baptism”, or credobaptism, from the Latin word credo meaning “I believe,” which is the religious practice of baptising only individuals who personally confess faith in Jesus, therefore excluding underage children. *** Infant baptism is also called christening.***
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Yeah, Wiki is so accurate and just jam-packed full of misinformation (I really should go back and fix the mistake I made when I added “hoosegow” as a synonym for “jail.” It’s really a synonym for “courtroom.”)
 
LittleSoldier said:
Yeah, Wiki is so accurate and just jam-packed full of misinformation (I really should go back and fix the mistake I made when I added “hoosegow” as a synonym for “jail.” It’s really a synonym for “courtroom.”)
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I realized that someone would present that argument … thats why there are several concurring references.
 
1voice said:
Truth erases confusion.

Catholic Christening

chris·ten·ing   [kris-uh-ning, kris-ning]
noun
1.
the ceremony of baptism, especially as accompanied by the giving of a name to a child.
Infant baptism is the practice of baptising infants or young children. In theological discussions, the practice is sometimes referred to as paedobaptism or pedobaptism from the Greek pais meaning “child.” The practice is sometimes contrasted with what is called “believer’s baptism”, or credobaptism, from the Latin word credo meaning “I believe,” which is the religious practice of baptising only individuals who personally confess faith in Jesus, therefore excluding underage children. *** Infant baptism is also called christening.***
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Please provide official Church documentation to back up your assertion that “christening” (or is it “Catholic Christening”?) and “baptism” (referring to the Sacrament of Baptism) are the same. Thank you.
 
LittleSoldier said:
Please provide official Church documentation to back up your assertion that “christening” (or is it “Catholic Christening”?) and “baptism” (referring to the Sacrament of Baptism) are the same. Thank you.
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The relevant point doesnt change …No matter what you want to call the ceremony … My original point remans true. The Catholic tradition that you call Baptism … is not the same as the Baptisms described in the Bible. In Biblical Baptism there is always a conscious decision made by the individual… and total immersion is always part of the process.
 
1voice said:
I realized that someone would present that argument … thats why there are several concurring references.
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As I am unable to access the first link I am requesting that you copy and paste the link. Or - if you can, please provide documentation using an *official *Church document (Dictionary.com doesn’t count as an official Church document). I have already posted a link to the CCC. Thank you.
 
1voice said:
The relevant point doesnt change …No matter what you want to call the ceremony … My original point remans true. The Catholic tradition that you call Baptism … is not the same as the Baptisms described in the Bible. In Biblical Baptism there is always a conscious decision made by the individual… and total immersion is always part of the process.
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Does this mean that you can’t find “christening” or “Catholic Christening” referred to in an *official *Church document? Are you conceding that “christening” and/or “Catholic Christening” are not officially used as synonyms for “baptism” (or “Baptism” or the “Sacrament of Baptism”) by the Catholic Church?

Please note that I am pushing this issue because Baptism is one of the seven Sacraments in the Church, removes Original Sin and all punishment for Original Sin, and is extremely important for Catholics as it is for most, if not all, Christian denominations (and it is my understanding that non-Catholic Triune Baptisms are recognized as valid by the Church).
 
1voice said:
The relevant point doesnt change …No matter what you want to call the ceremony … My original point remans true. The Catholic tradition that you call Baptism … is not the same as the Baptisms described in the Bible. In Biblical Baptism there is always a conscious decision made by the individual… and total immersion is always part of the process.
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Would you please provide the post number where you introduced what you are calling the “relevant point” into this thread? I’m sorry, but I can’t find it. Thank you.
 
LittleSoldier said:
As I am unable to access the first link I am requesting that you copy and paste the link. Or - if you can, please provide documentation using an *official *Church document (Dictionary.com doesn’t count as an official Church document). I have already posted a link to the CCC. Thank you.
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I said that the words are used interchangeably. I am correct. The name is not the point. It is only a distraction.
The point that I made is still accurate … and that is my focus… not this Christening vs Baptism rabbit trail. The point that i made still stands. The Baptism described in the Bible is not the same as the traditional Baptism ceremony performed by Catholics.

I dont care at all if the word 'Christening is not found in official Catholic documents… When my ( Irish/ Welsh/ British) Catholic family used the term … we all knew what they were talking about. and it is still commonly used today …as the link indicates. If it is foreign to you … and is that much of a distraction from the point I made … forget I used the term.
And lets move on.

mybabycelebration.co.uk/Catholic-christening.html?set=yes
 
1voice said:
I said that the words are used interchangeably. I am correct. The name is not the point. It is only a distraction.
The point that I made is still accurate … and that is my focus… not this Christening vs Baptism rabbit trail. The point that i made still stands. The Baptism described in the Bible is not the same as the traditional Baptism ceremony performed by Catholics.

I dont care at all if the word 'Christening is not found in official Catholic documents… When my ( Irish/ Welsh/ British) Catholic family used the term … we all knew what they were talking about. and it is still commonly used today …as the link indicates. If it is foreign to you … and is that much of a distraction from the point I made … forget I used the term.
And lets move on.

mybabycelebration.co.uk/Catholic-christening.html?set=yes
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Who brought up the word in the first place? Thank you for the link - you’re right; it is not an official Church document. The term is foreign to me because I have learned true Catholic teaching. And I am trying to move on, which is why I asked you: Will you please provide the post number where you made your original point? I’m sorry, but I can’t find it. Thank you.
 
1voice said:
Post # 473
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Thank you. No wonder I couldn’t find it - it was way back there? I didn’t search back that far.

OK. It’s late and although I believe there are biblical passages which support infant baptism I don’t want to get into that tonight. I’d just like to say that the Church is not sola scriptura.

I meant no offense to you. I don’t have a clear understanding of baptism but I know that it is extremely important. What we’re getting into now is probably the most important part of this thread for me. No matter how much I read or how much people tell me I don’t understand so much of what baptism is or why it is so important. I really want to understand.

God’s peace. I hope you have a good night.
 
1voice said:
The answer to you question is in post 566
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I found it. I wasn’t requesting it again - I was trying to indicate that I was moving on, as you suggested we do. I apologize for the confusion.

Again - God’s peace. I hope you have a good night. I’m going to dive into a book by Lovecraft and have scary dreams.
 
christosdavid said:
they are** two seperate words that happen to be next to each other, to claim they are even in a dictionary is astounding (etemology is not the same as meaning in context)… this is not the meaning of Acts 9:31 as it indicates an area in the genative case (ownership) immediately after, "throughout the whole **area of Judea &c"

the first recorded case of the single contraction word catholic is by Ignatius (c.110 AD)
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The etymology found in any dictionary traces the development of katholikos (as used by Ignatius) as being directly from kata + holos (as used in Acts 9:31). For example:
New Oxford American Dictionary 2d ed.:
late Middle English ( sense 2 of the adjective): from Old French catholique or late Latin catholicus, from Greek katholikos ‘universal,’ from kata ‘with respect to’ + holos ‘whole.’
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You are literally arguing with the dictionary.
Another example of** eisegesis**(reading into the text) 😃
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By asserting that the “Catholic meaning” of the text is something that came from outside the text and is read into it, you are positing a great apostasy. The moment you make that argument, you lose.
 
CMatt25 said:
Reread my post. I did not say “well it doesn’t matter”. I said God knows each of our hearts and why we understand His will as we do, and He would ultimately be the judge of our fates. I also most definitely did not say there was a lack of truth. Indeed I made it a point to refer to ultimate truth.

What I merely stated and conceded is simply the reality of the situation. Certainly of course we can in faith come to believe and think we “know”. Faithful Catholics for example believe they know and think they are right on everything they teach. And that’s fine. That’s the Catholic belief or faith. But that’s not the same as truly knowing otherwise it wouldn’t be called faith. Having faith and belief that we know and truly knowing with 100% absolute certainty are 2 entirely different things. And if everything was as clear as Catholics believe it is, there would not be multiple faiths and there would be even greater numbers of faithful Catholics than there are. There would be fewer atheists, fewer agnostics, fewer of the Jewish faith, of the Islam faith. Fewer non Catholic Christians and so on. But that’s simply not the reality of faith. God bless you along your faith journey and peace.
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It seems that you’ve shifted your argument or at the very least you are confusing the issue. We’re not talking about belief in God, or even belief in Jesus - so bringing up atheists and agnostics is responding to a point that I didn’t make. We’re talking about discovering truth with regard to whether or not sola scriptura is a Christian doctrine; or whether Jesus is present in the Eucharist; or whether once you’ve said the sinner’s prayer you have salvation for all eternity. Your position seems to be that those things don’t matter - that what really matters is what’s in our hearts. And, further, that this sort of theology does not lead to relativism (a point that ‘onemangang’ made in his post). If this is not your argument, then I’m confused…
 
1voice said:
. The Catholic tradition that you call Baptism … is not the same as the Baptisms described in the Bible. In Biblical Baptism there is always a conscious decision made by the individual… and total immersion is always part of the process.
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The book of Acts has several references to entire households being baptized; I believe there may be one in First Corinthians, also. Do you have some proof that there were no infants or toddlers in those households? For example, in the case of the jailer in Philippi, It doesn’t say he and his wife; it says “he and all his family were baptized at once.”
 
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