C
Cat_Herder
Guest
So you say that for 1,500 years no one was saved. Sorry, I don’t believe you, because I know Jesus and He loves us too much to ever allow that.
Further explanation.
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Further explanation.
F
faithalone1
Guest
I said nobody was saved for the first 1500 years?So you say that for 1,500 years no one was saved. Sorry, I don’t believe you, because I know Jesus and He loves us too much to ever allow that.
Further explanation.
J
JustaServant
Guest
And do you have documentation to back that up?A big change in the church occured starting about 100 AD , the change was that the leadership of the church switched from jewish to gentile . the new gentile leaders of the church were not grounded in the jewish roots of the christian faith.
Also after 412 AD when Christianity became the religion of the roman empire , many of the old pagan reliigious preist were absorbed into the church . In this many of the pagan practices came with them.
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
You said that Catholicism did not provide salvation and that there was no other Christianity.I said nobody was saved for the first 1500 years?
F
faithalone1
Guest
yeah its the “we have all of the keys to the Kingdom” belief. Even Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within YOU. that speaks volumes to me.I don’t think the Catholic Church ever ceased to be a true Christian Church, the problem for me lies with the claim that it is THE (one, only and exclusively, however expressed) true Christian Church or that it is somehow superior in some way to the other churches. Several other churches have valid claims to apostolicity (which Fr. Benedict Groeschel collectively refers to as the “ancient churches,” and which I think is a pretty apt and useful designation). So I think the question really is when the other ancient churches began to be alienated from Rome, which one could trace back to the first Council of Ephesus. Constantinople (381) is the last time the Pope spoke in communion with all the world’s bishops (a truly ecumenical council), so for a date, if one is needed, Ephesus was in 431 AD. This schism between Rome and the churches of the East was actually much more significant in terms of numbers than the sometimes so-called “Great Schism” of 1054.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Yup, there it is,To me , the CC has always been wrong in regards to salvation…
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Then explain why your denomination excludes non-WELS from worship.yeah its the “we have all of the keys to the Kingdom” belief. Even Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within YOU. that speaks volumes to me.
F
faithalone1
Guest
I said that the CC was wrong in its teaching on salvation. And i dont believe the church can “provide salvation”. I believe only god can do that. if those earlier christians had FAITH they were saved. Faith Alone.anything that distracts from that saving faith is a negative IMO.You said that Catholicism did not provide salvation and that there was no other Christianity.
S
stewstew03
Guest
Okay, assuming your first premise is true, then Luther had no reason to protest, correct?I don’t think the Catholic Church ever ceased to be a true Christian Church…
J
JustaServant
Guest
All within 100 years after Christ’s Resurrection:
We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone
“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words." Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98).
“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31 (A.D. 98).
“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32 (A.D. 98).
“Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be steadfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 1 (A.D. 110).
“Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages promised. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long-suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God is toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 6 (A.D. 110).
“For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works.” Epistle of Barnabas, 2 (A.D. 132).
“But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’” Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2 (A.D. 135).
We are Saved by Faith and Works, and Not Faith Alone
“Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. ‘For God,’ saith [the Scripture], ‘resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.’ Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words." Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 30 (A.D. 98).
“For what reason was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because he wrought righteousness and truth through faith?” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 31 (A.D. 98).
“All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 32 (A.D. 98).
“Now I beseech thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to add [speed] to thy course, and that thou ever pray for all men that they may be saved, and that thou demand things which are befitting, with all assiduity both of the flesh and spirit. Be studious of unity, than which nothing is more precious. Bear with all men, even as our Lord beareth with thee. Show patience with all men in love, as [indeed] thou doest. Be steadfast in prayer. Ask for more understanding than that which thou [already] hast. Be watchful, as possessing a spirit which sleepeth not. Speak with every man according to the will of God. Bear the infirmities of all men as a perfect athlete; for where the labour is great, the gain is also great.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 1 (A.D. 110).
“Look ye to the bishop, that God also may look upon you. I will be instead of the souls of those who are subject to the bishop, and the presbyters, and the deacons; with them may I have a portion in the presence of God! Labour together with one another, act as athletes together, run together, suffer together, sleep together, rise together. As stewards of God, and of His household, and His servants, please Him and serve Him, that ye may receive from Him the wages promised. Let none of you be rebellious. Let your baptism be to you as armour, and faith as a spear, and love as a helmet, and patience as a panoply. Let your treasures be your good works, that ye may receive the gift of God, as is just. Let your spirit be long-suffering towards each other with meekness, even as God is toward you. As for me, I rejoice in you at all times.” Ignatius of Antioch, To Polycarp, 6 (A.D. 110).
“For he who keepeth these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooseth other things shall be destroyed with his works.” Epistle of Barnabas, 2 (A.D. 132).
“But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, falsewitness; ‘not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing,’ or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: ‘Judge not, that ye be not judged; forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that ye may obtain mercy; with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again; and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.’” Polycarp, To the Philippians, 2 (A.D. 135).
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
How were they supposed to have faith if there were no Bibles and there was no one to minister to them?I said that the CC was wrong in its teaching on salvation. And i dont believe the church can “provide salvation”. I believe only god can do that. if those earlier christians had FAITH they were saved. Faith Alone.anything that distracts from that saving faith is a negative IMO.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Returning to the OP, when do you suppose the Church ‘went wrong’ on salvation?I said that the CC was wrong in its teaching on salvation. And i dont believe the church can “provide salvation”. I believe only god can do that. if those earlier christians had FAITH they were saved. Faith Alone.anything that distracts from that saving faith is a negative IMO.
F
faithalone1
Guest
Wels is a traditional Lutheran Synod. biblical and christ centered. thats it. Thats all it is to me. If people want a liberalized lutheran church that can be found elsewhere. there is a lot of confusion in Protestant Christianty. Being that I was a non-wels when i walked in the door and worshipped , i guess i will have to disagree with your post.Then explain why your denomination excludes non-WELS from worship.
F
faithalone1
Guest
when exactly? i dont know when exactly.seems to me that FAITH is what saved the early apostles. Jesus found Peter and said follow me and he followed. We’re all called the same way IMO. he didnt give Peter a list of works to be done or else. Faith is what saves in my view. Saved to obey is what i TRY to live by. TRY.Returning to the OP, when do you suppose the Church ‘went wrong’ on salvation?
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
Explain the unit concept of fellowship and show us where it is in the Bible pleaseWels is a traditional Lutheran Synod. biblical and christ centered. thats it. Thats all it is to me. If people want a liberalized lutheran church that can be found elsewhere. there is a lot of confusion in Protestant Christianty. Being that I was a non-wels when i walked in the door and worshipped , i guess i will have to disagree with your post.
F
faithalone1
Guest
Priests, monks had access to the Bibles. People were saved through Faith.If these people had Faith I believe they were saved.But being saved by works in a church is a false teaching for me. Anybody can go through the motions. Works dont save because i cant EARN heaven. God only cares about whats in your heart. we do good BECAUSE we’re saved. Thats my view.How were they supposed to have faith if there were no Bibles and there was no one to minister to them?
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
You haven’t answered the question of what happened after the early apostles died:when exactly? i dont know when exactly.seems to me that FAITH is what saved the early apostles. Jesus found Peter and said follow me and he followed. We’re all called the same way IMO. he didnt give Peter a list of works to be done or else. Faith is what saves in my view. Saved to obey is what i TRY to live by. TRY.
How were they supposed to have faith if there were no Bibles and there was no one to minister to them?
C
Cat_Herder
Guest
I thought those priests and monks are the ones you were accusing of teaching a false doctrine of salvation.Priests, monks had access to the Bibles. People were saved through Faith.If these people had Faith I believe they were saved.But being saved by works in a church is a false teaching for me. Anybody can go through the motions. Works dont save because i cant EARN heaven. God only cares about whats in your heart. we do good BECAUSE we’re saved. Thats my view.
F
faithalone1
Guest
well this a typical counter-claim by people that reject sola scriptura. scripture is the only infallible authority in regards to faith. and life IMO. being that you have moved away from the topic and have delved into a different subject i would invite to contact Wels through their website.Explain the unit concept of fellowship and show us where it is in the Bible please
F
faithalone1
Guest
do catholics believe in “invincible ignorance”? Is that a belief of yours?I thought those priests and monks are the ones you were accusing of teaching a false doctrine of salvation.
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