You agree that you are a dung heap?you are implying that the reformers were corrupt false prophets? Thats fine, but i could say that the CC has its own questionable teachings,practices, apparitions that could seen as false as well. Protestants dont claim, or shouldn’t claim to have all of the keys or to be the “true church”. I’m lutheran because i agree with Luthers theology. I would not say that my church is the “true” church.
I’ve heard different.Rome was and is still supreme. I am not sure where you are getting that idea from.
I would guess that from the Orthodox point of view since they don’t agree with the Papal doctrine on Supremacy or Infallibility. It would appear he or she heard their point of view on history and agrees more with them.Rome was and is still supreme. I am not sure where you are getting that idea from.
You agree that you are a dung heap?
What kind of a perfectly good and loving God would allow the devil to turn man into a dung heap and then never clean up the mess?/QUOTE
It’s easy to blow luthers writings out of proportion. Maybe Christ dies Becuase we couldn’t clean up the mess ourselves and reconcile ourselves with god? we couldn’t pay the divine price that is required by our creator?
You have to recieve Gods grace. it requires a lot being that many never do.Why does grace require ANYTHING from man, be it faith or works?
They still hold the Pope as first among equals.I would guess that from the Orthodox point of view since they don’t agree with the Papal doctrine on Supremacy or Infallibility. It would appear he or she heard their point of view on history and agrees more with them.
Not from what I heard. I believe that since they view us as leaving the fold because of the schism, that honor has been given to the Patriarch of Constantinople and has held it for the last 1,000 years in their eyes.They still hold the Pope as first among equals.
Well, if Protestants reject the Catholic Church, what else would they consider as an infallible authority besides the Bible? Scripture doesn’t need to say that it is the only infallible authority, as Protestants just don’t think anything else is infallible. It isn’t that Sola Scripture is the only authority, it’s just that nothing else is infallible, therefore, beliefs should only be based on Scripture.Scripture is the ONLY infallible authority in regards to faith? Where does Scripture teach it is the ONLY infallible authority?
I thought Christ paid that price for us.It’s easy to blow luthers writings out of proportion. Maybe Christ dies Becuase we couldn’t clean up the mess ourselves and reconcile ourselves with god? we couldn’t pay the divine price that is required by our creator?
I would advice you to look at the Church Fathers. These were people who came to know the Apostles and became their disciples and so on. Learn what they believed and compare that with any Church today and you will be bound to find the True Church of Christ. After that, you will have no doubt in my opinion.This is a great site. I have my beliefs and you have yours. But i appreciate how passionately Catholics will defend their beliefs. That shows a lot. I just dont accept Romes’ authority or claim of being infallible.But I believe all christians with a saving faith can get to where we need to go.Faith Alone
Let me ask you something. Who wrote the Bible and made it into what it is today? Who were the ones who protected the Word of God for all those centuries before the Reformation?This is a great site. I have my beliefs and you have yours. But i appreciate how passionately Catholics will defend their beliefs. That shows a lot. I just dont accept Romes’ authority or claim of being infallible.But I believe all christians with a saving faith can get to where we need to go.Faith Alone
People had already been protesting against corruption in the church hierarchy in Germany for hundreds of years before Luther came along. (See the Carmina Burana for example.) The difference was that during Luther’s time people finally voted with their feet. Luther and the German reform movement saw themselves as the inheritors of and preservers of the Roman tradition, not that the Latinate church somehow “went invalid” at some point earlier in the church’s history.Okay, assuming your first premise is true, then Luther had no reason to protest, correct?
Jews wrote the bible, Rome cannonized it and made it state religion. Rome legalized christianity and cannonized the bible. Orthodox would say that THEY protected the word of God too. Rome was a political force as well and I’ would presume that the Reformers came to feel that they were not infallible.Lot of great things came from the CC. I love liturgy, great gift from Catholics. and tradition as long as it is grounded in the right place.Let me ask you something. Who wrote the Bible and made it into what it is today? Who were the ones who protected the Word of God for all those centurys before the Reformation?
Let me remind you that for centurys the Bible had to handwritten word for word because the printing press wasn’t invented until later on in history.
Luther was trying to reform. Wanted to stay withing the CC. Just didnt work out.People had already been protesting against corruption in the church hierarchy in Germany for hundreds of years before Luther came along. (See the Carmina Burana for example.) The difference was that during Luther’s time people finally voted with their feet. Luther and the German reform movement saw themselves as the inheritors of and preservers of the Roman tradition, not that the Latinate church somehow “went invalid” at some point earlier in the church’s history.
The Jewish Apostles wrote the New Testament. But in our view, they were the early Church as in the Catholic Church in its early stages.Jews wrote the bible, Rome cannonized it and made it state religion. Rome legalized christianity and cannonized the bible. Orthodox would say that THEY protected the word of God too. Rome was a political force as well and I’ would presume that the Reformers came to feel that they were not infallible.Lot of great things came from the CC. I love liturgy, great gift from Catholics. and tradition as long as it is grounded in the right place.
I just don’t see the true church of christ as a particular church. we can argue this endlessly. Orthodox make the same claim.I would advice you to look at the Church Fathers. These were people who came to know the Apostles and became their disciples and so on. Learn what they believed and compare that with any Church today and you will be bound to find the True Church of Christ. After that, you will have no doubt in my opinion.
I would never say that he tried to reform at all. If he truly wanted to reform the CC at the time, why did he just give up and leave?Luther was trying to reform. Wanted to stay withing the CC. Just didnt work out.
Yes, I see. The Protestants believe that all Chirstian Churchs overall make the Chirstian Church. I assume you think this way as well?I just don’t see the true church of christ as a particular church. we can argue this endlessly. Orthodox make the same claim.
I would say that there is a lot of confusion on the Protestant side. I just see that as inevitable.Martin Luther had a lot of things right IMO. after him it gets questionable. Lutheran worship is catholic influenced. great Liturgy, orderly, reverent. I’ve been to catholic mass, great service. Things got complicated with Calvin and the rest. OSAS,5 point calivinism. very confusing. But with the advance of technology the CC was going to challenged regardless.The Jewish Apostles wrote the New Testament. But in our view, they were the early Church as in the Catholic Church in its early stages.
The Orthodox did protect the Bible as well so I can’t disagree with you on that point. But I need to say that you put a lot of faith on the “Reformers”. What makes them so special in your eyes?