Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

[stewstew03]

People had already been protesting against corruption in the church hierarchy in Germany for hundreds of years before Luther came along. (See the Carmina Burana for example.) The difference was that during Luther’s time people finally voted with their feet. Luther and the German reform movement saw themselves as the inheritors of and preservers of the Roman tradition, not that the Latinate church somehow “went invalid” at some point earlier in the church’s history.

Yes, believers protested against corruption, and rightly so. However, given that the Church was “a true Christian Church,” as you say, then there was absolutely no need to create a whole new church.

Luther being an emotional chap, he overreacted…

 

[SteveVH]

THe question was when did the Catholic church go bad?..doesn’t matter to me “when”…it is a man-made organization

Publisher, do you agree that Christ founded a Church? If you do, then you cannot say that the Church Christ founded was a “man-made organization”. You may try to argue that the Church Christ founded is not the Catholic Church, but then you would have to tell us exactly what happened to the Church Christ founded if it is not the Catholic Church. Where then is this Church that is not man-made?

it is not the ONLY organizatin through which the Church works and ministers…the Church was established on Pentecost through the baptism of the Holy Spirit…at least in Acts…in John Jesus “breathed upon them…” and they received the Holy Spirit…God’s People are where they meet in His Name and love one another…“by this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you love one another.”…not “what organization do you belong to”.

The Church (not churches) Christ established was indeed established on Pentecost and in subsequent verses and chapters within Acts we can see that it had a hierarchy with Peter at the head. They met in councils and began making rules in which to live out the Chrstian life (See Council of Jerusalem).

We differ…you believe the organization you belong to is the Church in and of itself…I don’t…it doesn’t matter when the organization which became known as the Catholic church went “bad”…all that matters to me is that He is served and obeyed as members of His True Church should…and love one another…on the Last Day, the King won’t ask “were you baptized” or "were you a member of the Catholic church?..but “I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was in prison and you did not…”

Then what you are really saying is that it doesn’t matter what one believes as long as they profess to be “Christian”. You have gone so far as to ignore a direct commandment of Jesus himself to preach the gospel to all nations, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. This wasn’t an opition, but rather a direct command. Yes, we must live out the Christian works of mercy; feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, etc., but we cannot at the same time throw out direct commands of Christ just because we have decided that they are not important.

My “circle” surrounds you as a brother or sister in Christ…it matters not if yours surrounds me…when did the Catholic church go bad? I don’t know…it’s an earthly organization with all the failings of any organization, led by fallible humans…the gates of hell will never stop God’s Church…organizations may fail…but His Church will endure…“where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst”. In His Presence is where we find unity…not who’s name is on the meetinghouse we meet to worship in…His Church is found among those who meet to worship and serve this world He loved and gave Himself for.

We would agree that it matters not what one calls himself. There are plenty of “Catholics” who do not practice the faith handed down to them by the Apostles, just as there are plenty of folks from the various denominations who do the same. The fact that some do not live their faith does not discount the fulness of truth contained with the Catholic Church which it received from Christ and the Apostles. The Catholic Church is not just another church. It is the original from which all others, including yours, splintered and went their own way. While the grace of Christ is present to some extent within each of these ecclesial organizations, Christ founded only one Chuch and made promises concerning that Church; that it would be guided by the Holy Spirt, that he would remain with it always and that the gates of hell would never prevail against it. You would do well to investigate its claims.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher, do you agree that Christ founded a Church? If you do, then you cannot say that the Church Christ founded was a “man-made organization”. You may try to argue that the Church Christ founded is not the Catholic Church, but then you would have to tell us exactly what happened to the Church Christ founded if it is not the Catholic Church. Where then is this Church that is not man-made?

**Jesus established a “community” of believers…ecclesia…“church”…His community…His People gathered together for worship and service. He no more established an “organization” than did Moses or Elijah…the Jewish people were a “covenant people”…not an “organization”. **

The Church (not churches) Christ established was indeed established on Pentecost and in subsequent verses and chapters within Acts we can see that it had a hierarchy with Peter at the head. They met in councils and began making rules in which to live out the Chrstian life (See Council of Jerusalem).

I don’t believe that any organization is the Church…that the Church met together in concils is not a contention with me…the organization I belong to has it’s “Yearly Meetings”…but that doesn’t make it the one true church…just a meeting of believers to plan and organize and spread the message of Light and Love and Redemption thru God’s Revelation.

Then what you are really saying is that it doesn’t matter what one believes as long as they profess to be “Christian”. You have gone so far as to ignore a direct commandment of Jesus himself to preach the gospel to all nations, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. This wasn’t an opition, but rather a direct command. Yes, we must live out the Christian works of mercy; feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, etc., but we cannot at the same time throw out direct commands of Christ just because we have decided that they are not important.

I wouldn’t say it doesn’t matter what one believes…it does matter how one conducts oneself toward one’s neighbor…and the “least of these”…it does matter if our hands move in healing instead of violence…it does matter what we believe about others and if they “wear the face of Jesus” in our world…if He’s hungry…or thirsty…or lonely…it matters if we believe in the worth of persons and live our lives in love and mercy…no where in scripture does it testify concerning what one believes at the Last Day…but how we responed to those in our midst seems to be of utmost concern…especially to the One doing the Judging.

We would agree that it matters not what one calls himself. There are plenty of “Catholics” who do not practice the faith handed down to them by the Apostles, just as there are plenty of folks from the various denominations who do the same. The fact that some do not live their faith does not discount the fulness of truth contained with the Catholic Church which it received from Christ and the Apostles. The Catholic Church is not just another church. It is the original from which all others, including yours, splintered and went their own way. While the grace of Christ is present to some extent within each of these ecclesial organizations, Christ founded only one Chuch and made promises concerning that Church; that it would be guided by the Holy Spirt, that he would remain with it always and that the gates of hell would never prevail against it. You would do well to investigate its claims.

I know that is what you believe…I don’t and reject your ecclesial communities claims as being the “One True Church”…your and your churches claims do not release me from the obligations of peace, mercy, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness to the One who’s Presence I enter into each First Day…I must remain faithful to the Voice I hear…and to the One who loves me most and knows me best. To the One who gave Himself for us while we were yet separated from Him.

If your beliefs cause your hands to move in gentleness, your words in love and kindness, if you walk the path of peace and show mercy and compassion…I rejoice with you in your faith…we each must accept the Robe He gives us…His Robe of Righteousness…“By this shall all men know you are my disciples…that you love one another.”…“when twio or three are gathered together in my name…there am I in their midst”…were the words reported…not…“What church body do you belong to?”…“What bishop do you trace your lineage thru?”

 

[JustaServant]

This is why a theocracy is purely anti-christian. the goal isn’t to make people christian in name only. I think thats what happens when you’re more concerned about your church being the “true” church etc. Faith Alone.

Not to derail, but if theocracy is a bad thing why did God set one up in the OT?

 

[SteveVH]

I know that is what you believe…I don’t and reject your ecclesial communities claims as being the “One True Church”…your and your churches claims do not release me from the obligations of peace, mercy, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness to the One who’s Presence I enter into each First Day…I must remain faithful to the Voice I hear…and to the One who loves me most and knows me best. To the One who gave Himself for us while we were yet separated from Him.

I’m not sure I understand you. There is only one Church because Christ only founded one Church. All other “denominations” are not churches, properly speaking, but rather ecclesial communities. And I am not sure why you think that my Church’s claims would release you from the obligations of peace, mercy and kindness. Publisher, you may be living a life of peace, mercy and kindness and I have no doubt that God will reward you for this. But the fact that you may live this way does not discount the claims of the Catholic Church as to its origin as the Church that Christ founded.

This isn’t an either/or situation. It is a both/and situation. Yes, we are to live lives of peace, mercy and kindness. We are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison. All of these are Church teachings, but so are the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconciliation, Marriage, Holy Orders and Last Rites. That is why Christ started a Church and did not just simply tell his followers to live lives of peace, mercy and kindness. He is present in his sacraments in a manner in which he is not otherwise present to his people. He is present in his Church and remains with it until the end of time so that the voice of the Church is the voice of Christ.

 

[Publisher]

I’m not sure I understand you. There is only one Church because Christ only founded one Church. All other “denominations” are not churches, properly speaking, but rather ecclesial communities. And I am not sure why you think that my Church’s claims would release you from the obligations of peace, mercy and kindness. Publisher, you may be living a life of peace, mercy and kindness and I have no doubt that God will reward you for this. But the fact that you may live this way does not discount the claims of the Catholic Church as to its origin as the Church that Christ founded.

This isn’t an either/or situation. It is a both/and situation. Yes, we are to live lives of peace, mercy and kindness. We are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison. All of these are Church teachings, but so are the sacraments of Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation, Reconciliation, Marriage, Holy Orders and Last Rites. That is why Christ started a Church and did not just simply tell his followers to live lives of peace, mercy and kindness. He is present in his sacraments in a manner in which he is not otherwise present to his people. He is present in his Church and remains with it until the end of time so that the voice of the Church is the voice of Christ.

I didn’t say your churches beliefs would release me…if I believed it’s claim to be the “One True Church”…I don’t find the claims made by the Catholic church compelling…if I did…I’d be Catholic…I understand your beliefs concerning the matter…I understand your view and belief in the sacraments…you and I define what constitutes the Church differently…the Church comprises all who have in faith received His gift of forgiveness and Life, not through ritualistic iniation but thru faith in His work for us…we are baptized into His Body by His Holy Spirit…all who have received this One Baptism ARE members of His Chruch…whether we are willing to recognize one another or not…it is He who makes us members of His Body…you and I may decide whom we will accept as members of His Body…but our acceptance or rejection of one another doesn’t mean He rejects us…my trust…as I’m sure yours is…is in the Lord…not the organization I belong to…and in my beliefs…not in the rituals I engage in.

I am “saved” not becasue of who I am or by what I do…but by Who He is and by what He has done for me…we are brothers in Christ because He has made us of One Family…One Body thru the One Baptism of His Spirit.

I mean no disrespect toward your beliefs…I don’t and can’t share them…each of us must be faithful to the Light we have been shown…and we may understand it differently…express it differently. Each of us must “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling”…it is a weighty thing to take responsibility for our own spiritual welfare…and I do…but on that Last Day, it will be thru His grace and mercy I trust and give account of myself…“His grace is sufficient, His strength is made perfect in our weakness.”…I’m in Good Hands…as are you friend.

 

[Nicea325]

Not to derail, but if theocracy is a bad thing why did God set one up in the OT?

Exactly! That was my point to faithalone1 in a few replies back. I told faithalone1 God is in charge of everything, thus he is FIRST. I also made it clear that in heaven angles have rank and Jesus was above all the 9 choirs of angelical beings. Likewise, Jesus above the 12 Apostles and why wouldn’t God do the same with His Church on earth?

 

[exnihilo]

As I was writing this I realized this was not the most coherent comment. I left it as is because I’m not trying to make an argument but just recount some ideas I have had at various times regarding this topic.

When, exactly did the Catholic Church as we know it now cease to be the true Christian church?

That is a difficult question but it assumes that Protestants view the Catholic Church as the one true Church. I think most would disagree. I think most would say the true church is not a single institution with worldly power. I think that answer is a bad one because if God ordained political institutions with worldly power then surely he would have ordained an institution for the church. It has occurred to me lately that the average non-denominational evangelical and most Mainline Protestants hold the secular power of the state to be something ordained by God and one that he must obey and can not separate from. And yet God would not do something even greater regarding the Church? That seems strange. Also strange is that every Christian belongs to some institutional body of fellow Christians. This membership indicates that they believe in truer Churches and it must follow that they believe theirs is the most true.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that the Catholic Church was the one true Church I would have difficulty answering this. In some ways that is telling. At the same time such things are not so cut and dry. If we think about other relationships we have we often will have a host of reasons for a break but not necessarily one defining moment. And even if we do have a defining moment we will say that something was not quite right long before any official break.

I would tend to agree with the answer that AnglicanForMary gave regarding the temporal power of the church. It seems this might have had a negative influence. Then again I think it wrong not to acknowledge how much the church did to keep Western Civilization after the fall of Rome. If one cites various abuses then they are going to have problems since any church that has any age has a history of abuse of some kind or errant doctrine. Most Mainline Protestant Churches have ‘developed’ doctrines that if not errant, which I think they are, make older doctrine errant.

The Catholic Church did reform many of the specific errors that led to many of the early divisions. This has not led to a reunion which only shows that most Protestant Churches are not actually grounded by the doctrine of their founders but added and rejected doctrines themselves as time went on. This makes stating a time when the Catholic Church went wrong difficult since anyone in such a church has the problem of having stayed (or really their ancestors) in their church through error.

The dogmatic declaration of Papal Infallibility has certainly made things more difficult for us Protestants. In some ways we could say that was the point at which things went bad. Once that was declared it became very difficult to reunite because fundamentally Protestantism rejects church authority. I read where another poster used Lord Acton’s quote about absolute power corrupting. I think few know that he said this regarding this dogmatic declaration of Vatican I which he, a Catholic, worked against. I mention that only because while I have long been familiar with the quote I didn’t know that is what he was specifically thinking about until recently.

 

[SteveVH]

I didn’t say your churches beliefs would release me…if I believed it’s claim to be the “One True Church”…I don’t find the claims made by the Catholic church compelling…if I did…I’d be Catholic…I understand your beliefs concerning the matter…I understand your view and belief in the sacraments…you and I define what constitutes the Church differently…the Church comprises all who have in faith received His gift of forgiveness and Life, not through ritualistic iniation but thru faith in His work for us…we are baptized into His Body by His Holy Spirit…all who have received this One Baptism ARE members of His Chruch…whether we are willing to recognize one another or not…it is He who makes us members of His Body…you and I may decide whom we will accept as members of His Body…but our acceptance or rejection of one another doesn’t mean He rejects us…my trust…as I’m sure yours is…is in the Lord…not the organization I belong to…and in my beliefs…not in the rituals I engage in.

I am “saved” not becasue of who I am or by what I do…but by Who He is and by what He has done for me…we are brothers in Christ because He has made us of One Family…One Body thru the One Baptism of His Spirit.

I mean no disrespect toward your beliefs…I don’t and can’t share them…each of us must be faithful to the Light we have been shown…and we may understand it differently…express it differently. Each of us must “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling”…it is a weighty thing to take responsibility for our own spiritual welfare…and I do…but on that Last Day, it will be thru His grace and mercy I trust and give account of myself…“His grace is sufficient, His strength is made perfect in our weakness.”…I’m in Good Hands…as are you friend.

Well there is much with which we agree. I agree that all are brought into the Body of Christ through Baptism. You say “the Church comprises all who have in faith recieved His gift of forgiveness and Life, not through ritualistic iniation but thru faith in His work for us…we are baptized into His Body by His Holy Spirit…all who have received this One Baptism ARE members of His Chruch.” Yet you have created your own definition of what constitutes Baptism. I can assure you that Baptism as I understand it and as taught by my Church is not simply a “ritualistic initiation”, but an actual washing away of sins, a cleansing of the soul and an infusion of supernatural life by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. We do what Christ commanded us to do.

I agree that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling, taking responsibility for our own spiritual welfare. I agree that we are saved not by what we have done, but by what God has done. Our responsibility is to respond to this grace with a big YES. Our responsibility is to do what he commanded us to do, as taught to the Apostles from whom we have received the deposit of faith.

But you have not answered my initial question. If Christ founded a Church, then we cannot say it is a man-made Church, but rather a divine Church to which he promised he would never leave. Where is that Church today, Publisher? Is it in the myriad of beliefs of those who profess to be Christian, yet find themselves in division rather than unity? That is not the faith handed down by the Apostles. I think you are a wonderful person, from what I have seen. I believe you live a very Christ-like life. I only wish you knew the beauty and richness and intimacy with Christ that exists in the Church Christ founded.

 

[Publisher]

Well there is much with which we agree. I agree that all are brought into the Body of Christ through Baptism. You say “the Church comprises all who have in faith recieved His gift of forgiveness and Life, not through ritualistic iniation but thru faith in His work for us…we are baptized into His Body by His Holy Spirit…all who have received this One Baptism ARE members of His Chruch.” Yet you have created your own definition of what constitutes Baptism. I can assure you that Baptism as I understand it and as taught by my Church is not simply a “ritualistic initiation”, but an actual washing away of sins, a cleansing of the soul and an infusion of supernatural life by the indwelling the Holy Spirit. We do what Christ commanded us to do.

I agree that we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling, taking responsibility for our own spiritual welfare. I agree that we are saved not by what we have done, but by what God has done. Our responsibility is to respond to this grace with a big YES. Our responsibility is to do what he commanded us to do, as taught to the Apostles from whom we have received the deposit of faith.

But you have not answered my initial question. If Christ founded a Church, then we cannot say it is a man-made Church, but rather a divine Church to which he promised he would never leave. Where is that Church today, Publisher? Is it in the myriad of beliefs of those who profess to be Christian, yet find themselves in division rather than unity? That is not the faith handed down by the Apostles. I think you are a wonderful person, from what I have seen. I believe you live a very Christ-like life. I only wish you knew the beauty and richness and intimacy with Christ that exists in the Church Christ founded.

Where is the Church today…it is among the needy…the poor…the hurting…where ever the People of God meet to worship Him…there is the Church…and He will never leave it…our unity it not based on what organization we belong to…it is based on the love we share with Him with one another…“by this shall all men know you are my disciples…that you love one another.”…I realize you don’t believe it to be the “faith handed down by the apostles”…but I do…“we live in that virtue and power of life in which the apostles lived”…is one way a Friend expressed it…and that faith resonates within me and in every fiber of my being.

I appreciate your sentiment and desire I know the “beauty and richness and intimacy with Christ that exists in the Church Christ founded”…I do…I find a depth beyond my understanding and an intimacy with Him more profound than I can express…" For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen."

This is one of my favorite passages in Ephesians. I appreciate your concern friend…I feel it is unfounded…but appreciate it just the same.

 

[Zundrah]

This question is intended mainly for Protestants. When, exactly did the Catholic Church as we know it now cease to be the true Christian church? Back when I was Protestant, we always focused on the early Church (up to Augustine), and then skipped to Luther, Calvin, et al. When I started looking into it, I found that Augustine and a lot of the REALLY early Christians (Ireneus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch) were very “Catholic,” especially compared to the reformers. Just out of curiosity, where do most Protestants draw the line (e.g. a certain council, pope, theologian, etc.) between the early Church and the “corrupt” Roman Catholic Church?

I always agreed with my Mormon friend, she said they went wrong right from the start.

 

[JonNC]

If you haven’t already, would you mind pointing out five things in your opinion that was needed for the Reformation to fix? Then I’ll try and explain every point from the Catholic point of view.

Hi Art.
If I may. The concerns of the reformers were clearly listed in the Augsburg Confession.

bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php

I might add, that they concluded with these words:

These are the chief articles which seem to be in controversy. For although we might have spoken of more abuses, yet, to avoid undue length, we have set forth the chief points, from which the rest may be readily judged. 2] There have been great complaints concerning indulgences, pilgrimages, and the abuse of excommunications. The parishes have been vexed in many ways by the dealers in indulgences. There were endless contentions between the pastors and the monks concerning the parochial right, confessions, burials, sermons on extraordinary occasions, and 3] innumerable other things. Issues of this sort we have passed over so that the chief points in this matter, having been briefly set forth, might be the more readily understood. 4] Nor has anything been here said or adduced to the reproach of any one. 5] Only those things have been recounted whereof we thought that it was necessary to speak, in order that it might be understood that in doctrine and ceremonies nothing has been received on our part against Scripture or the Church Catholic. For it is manifest that we have taken most diligent care that no new and ungodly doctrine should creep into our churches.

It is the bolded and underlined that I as a Lutheran keep in mind continuously as I dialogue here, because it is my firm belief that Christ intends our communions to be reconciled and one. It would be mindless to first claim that the Catholic Church was apostate, or gone bad, then on the other hand claim that there is nothing in doctrine received on our part against scripture and the Church Catholic.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Lochias;9013416] But no other denomination can trace their pedigree back 2000 years, unlike the Church. What we believe now is what the Apostles believed then, it can be proved, and it has been. Many, many times over

Well, the patriarchate of Rome was not alone at the beginning. The others were there, too.

Personally, having tried both ways, Protestantism wound up terrifying me. 30,000+ denominations, all claiming to have the best way, the true way, and no way to prove it. Chaos, utter and complete, with no room for peace or assurance or clear-cut disciplines and teachings that could be traced back to our Lord’s teachings themselves.

It seems to me that unless you claimed to a member of more than one (never mind the so-called 30,000) there would be no confusion. I am Lutheran. The fact that others are Reformed or Baptist, or Methodist doesn’t terrify me. Why should it? They are of different communions with different roots.

Sorry, not for me. I need all the help I can get on the road Home.

And I pray for His grace upon in word and sacrament while you travel.

Jon

 

[Bballer32]

Not to derail, but if theocracy is a bad thing why did God set one up in the OT?

THANK YOU!!! :extrahappy:

 

[JonNC]

Not to derail, but if theocracy is a bad thing why did God set one up in the OT?

If you wish a theocracy, which theology are you willing to live under? We see theocracy in Iran, and nether of us would settle for that!
Would a theocracy under Rev. Matthew Harrison, president of the LCMS be ok? Perhaps the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Or, could it only be the Bishop of Rome? Now, admittedly, Pope Benedict XVI might be rather tempting, considering our current circumstances, but not all popes have been as admirable as he has.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

If you wish a theocracy, which theology are you willing to live under? We see theocracy in Iran, and nether of us would settle for that!
Would a theocracy under Rev. Matthew Harrison, president of the LCMS be ok? Perhaps the Archbishop of Canterbury?

Or, could it only be the Bishop of Rome? Now, admittedly, Pope Benedict XVI might be rather tempting, considering our current circumstances, but not all popes have been as admirable as he has.

Jon

A theocracy assumes a set of certain imposed beliefs, IMO. Christianity requires a free, voluntary, personal decision in each of its members. I cannot imagine a Christian theocracy, not even under Pope Benedict XVI. Not until Christ returns and all will know the truth.

 

[faithalone1]

THANK YOU!!! :extrahappy:

Well God also set up Mosiac law as well but we dont call for stoning our kids when they disobey do we? We also can see that the Jews could never LIVE up to Gods law as they were sinners like all of us.Theocracy serves no purpose today, the purpose of the law in the old testament was to show the Jews AND US that man cannot live up to the Law and perhaps just to give them a civil law so as to restrain evil? Civil law is meant to restrain evil. no more than that. Theological law shows us that we need Christ… man cant reach god by what he does. We all Fail. the sermon on the mount sums up the law for me. The law brings you to christ as he says that even when calling someone an idiot you have already “killed” them in your heart. we all fall short no matter what we “DO”. Faith alone saves.

 

[faithalone1]

A theocracy assumes a set of certain imposed beliefs, IMO. Christianity requires a free, voluntary, personal decision in each of its members. I cannot imagine a Christian theocracy, not even under Pope Benedict XVI. Not until Christ returns and all will know the truth.

AMEN.

 

[faithalone1]

I look for Christ on every page in the OT. To me a lot of the OT foretells the Coming Of Christ. Thats how i read it.

 

[faithalone1]

And really the OT foretells Christ so ofcourse the Law points to him as does everything else.