Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

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JonNC said:
Well, the patriarchate of Rome was not alone at the beginning. The others were there, too.

Can you clarify this statement for me, please? I’m not sure what you mean.

It seems to me that unless you claimed to a member of more than one (never mind the so-called 30,000) there would be no confusion. I am Lutheran. The fact that others are Reformed or Baptist, or Methodist doesn’t terrify me. Why should it? They are of different communions with different roots.
**
Nothing so-called about it…that number isn’t just tossed around because it sounds good. What scared me is knowing that none of those communities had a teaching authority, a Spirit-guided voice of truth and infallibility as set up by Jesus himself. They are all inventions of man, and man has a way of veering wildly off course if left to his own devices**.

And I pray for His grace upon in word and sacrament while you travel.
**
Most kind of you, sir. I pray for profound peace and all good, for you and yours.**
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faithalone1 said:
And really the OT foretells Christ so ofcourse the Law points to him as does everything else.
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So you basically backed up my point about the parallels between the OT and NT about the Supremecy of the Pope.

Ah Hah!! 😃
 
Bballer32 said:
Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon’s quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the “whole Church” offered “earnest prayers” for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church’s first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter’s definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter’s definitive teaching. “Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited…”

Here is only a few of the passages from scripture!
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Here Faithalone… you forgot to see these
 
faithalone1 said:
Well God also set up Mosiac law as well but we dont call for stoning our kids when they disobey do we? We also can see that the Jews could never LIVE up to Gods law as they were sinners like all of us.Theocracy serves no purpose today, the purpose of the law in the old testament was to show the Jews AND US that man cannot live up to the Law and perhaps just to give them a civil law so as to restrain evil? Civil law is meant to restrain evil. no more than that. Theological law shows us that we need Christ… man cant reach god by what he does. We all Fail. the sermon on the mount sums up the law for me. The law brings you to christ as he says that even when calling someone an idiot you have already “killed” them in your heart. we all fall short no matter what we “DO”. Faith alone saves.
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faithalone 1

Perhaps you havent read James Chapter 2.

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
 
faithalone1 said:
If i go to a catholic church I’m saved. 1.5 billion people do that. I’m sorry but no church can provide salvation. jesus also said the Kingdom of heaven is within you. To me the idea of a supreme pontiff or head bishop is unbiblical. Peter didnt “outrank” John, matthew or even Paul.
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Jesus said to Peter,“You are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church.” Mathew 16:18 😃
 
faithalone1 said:
Ok, I’ll play. where did the bible declare that the Bishop of Rome is supreme? The word of god has been and will always be infallible. for centuries it was Oral and written. Now we have it in written form everywhere. the bible trumps rome. thats what it comes down to here.
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1 Timothy 3:15 the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The bible can’t be trump all. There are 30,000 different denominations due to different interpretations.

Jesus gave us his Church. 😃
 
Cursilista said:
faithalone 1

Perhaps you havent read James Chapter 2.

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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Yup. Also, let’s not forget that Luther wanted to remove the gospel of James because of his writings on works, but it was never removed because Luther received much opposition to it.
 
Bballer32 said:
So you basically backed up my point about the parallels between the OT and NT about the Supremecy of the Pope.

Ah Hah!! 😃
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I basically just said that Christ was foretold in the OT. ALL Christians believe as such, otherwise we’d be Jews.
 
Bballer32 said:
Here Faithalone… you forgot to see these
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Ok i can play cut and paste too.
. 20 reasons why Peter Not A Good Choice For The First Pope

Peter was just one of the 12 apostles (Mt.10:1-2; Mk. 3:13-19; Lk. 6:13-16).
Peter was just one of the three close friends of Jesus (Mt. 17:1; 26:36-37).
Peter denied the Lord Jesus three times (Mt. 26:69-75; Lk
Peter was a married man: 1 Cor. 9:5; Matthew 8:14
Peter was rebuked by the Lord (Mt. 16:23; Jn. 21:20-22).
Peter was rebuked by Paul (Gal. 2:11).
Peter never accepted reverence (Acts 10:25-26); (No man should, Rev. 19:10; 22:9).
Peter was not superior to the other apostles (Mt. 18:18; 2 Cor.11:5;12:11).
Peter and the other apostles, in consideration of their demise, wrote letters preserving their combined God-given revelations for all time (2 Pet. 1:12-15; 3:1-2; Eph. 3:3-5.).
Peter along with the other apostles were to “sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Mt. 19:28).
Peter was not the head of the church - Jesus is the only head of His church (Eph. 1:22-23;Col.1:19)
Peter was not selected to be the Vicar of Christ on earth (no references in the Bible).
Peter never talked about any “successors” to him.
Peter and Paul never wore any of the many titles of the modern Popes (2 Pet. 3:15).
Peter and no other disciple(s) were to be “the greatest in the kingdom” (Mt. 18:1-4; 20:20-28); rather, they were to be equal.
Peter’s name in the Greek is Petros (a detached stone, Jn. 1:42) but Jesus said the church would be built upon the “rock” or Petra (a mass of rock) - Mt. 16:18.
Matthew 16:18 Peter is masculine gender and rock in femine gender; in context they cannot refer to the same thing.
Peter and Paul declared that Jesus was “the chief cornerstone” (Acts 4:12; Eph. 2:20).
Peter and the other apostles were merely the layers of the foundation Stone - Jesus (Acts 4:11-12; Eph. 2:19-20).
Finally, Jesus Himself said that “all authority” was given to Him both "in heaven and on earth (Mt. 28:18-20).

Have fun.
 
joclucsylv said:
1 Timothy 3:15 the church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

The bible can’t be trump all. There are 30,000 different denominations due to different interpretations.

Jesus gave us his Church. 😃
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we both know that there isn’t 30,000 denominations.Thats complete nonsense. JESUS CHRIST is the Pillar and foundation of truth. Not a church denomintaion that tells me to “work” for my salvation. One major difference between Christianty and ALL other religions is that we must have a relationship with our faiths founder. A saving relationship and faith. islam,buddhism,etc etc all require “works” and no relationship with their founder. Other religions are systems based off of “things” to do to make it. Christianity is based on a Relationship based on a SAVING FAITH in its founder.
 
faithalone1 said:
Ok i can play cut and paste too.
. 20 reasons why Peter Not A Good Choice For The First Pope

Peter was just one of the 12 apostles (Mt.10:1-2; Mk. 3:13-19; Lk. 6:13-16).
Peter was just one of the three close friends of Jesus (Mt. 17:1; 26:36-37).
Peter denied the Lord Jesus three times (Mt. 26:69-75; Lk
Peter was a married man: 1 Cor. 9:5; Matthew 8:14
Peter was rebuked by the Lord (Mt. 16:23; Jn. 21:20-22).
Peter was rebuked by Paul (Gal. 2:11).
Peter never accepted reverence (Acts 10:25-26); (No man should, Rev. 19:10; 22:9).
Peter was not superior to the other apostles (Mt. 18:18; 2 Cor.11:5;12:11).
Peter and the other apostles, in consideration of their demise, wrote letters preserving their combined God-given revelations for all time (2 Pet. 1:12-15; 3:1-2; Eph. 3:3-5.).
Peter along with the other apostles were to “sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” (Mt. 19:28).
Peter was not the head of the church - Jesus is the only head of His church (Eph. 1:22-23;Col.1:19)
Peter was not selected to be the Vicar of Christ on earth (no references in the Bible).
Peter never talked about any “successors” to him.
Peter and Paul never wore any of the many titles of the modern Popes (2 Pet. 3:15).
Peter and no other disciple(s) were to be “the greatest in the kingdom” (Mt. 18:1-4; 20:20-28); rather, they were to be equal.
Peter’s name in the Greek is Petros (a detached stone, Jn. 1:42) but Jesus said the church would be built upon the “rock” or Petra (a mass of rock) - Mt. 16:18.
Matthew 16:18 Peter is masculine gender and rock in femine gender; in context they cannot refer to the same thing.
Peter and Paul declared that Jesus was “the chief cornerstone” (Acts 4:12; Eph. 2:20).
Peter and the other apostles were merely the layers of the foundation Stone - Jesus (Acts 4:11-12; Eph. 2:19-20).
Finally, Jesus Himself said that “all authority” was given to Him both "in heaven and on earth (Mt. 28:18-20).

Have fun.
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Since you say you are Protestant (Lutheran) lets look at what Martin Luther had to say about Peter

Martin Luther
"If Christ had not entrusted all power to one man, the Church would not have been perfect because there would have been no order and each one would have been able to say [that] he was led by the Holy Spirit. This is what the heretics did, each one setting up his own principle. In this way as many Churches arose as there were heads. Christ therefore wills, in order that all may be assembled in one unity, that His power be exercised by one man to whom He Himself commits it. He has, however, made this power so strong that he looses all the powers of Hell (without injury) against it.** He says: ‘the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it’, as though He said: ‘they will fight against it but never overcome it’, so it is in this way it is made manifest that this power is in reality from God and not from man. Wherefore, whoever breaks away from this unity and order of the power, let him not boast of great enlightenment and wonderful works, as our Picards and other heretics do, ‘for much better is obedience than to be the victims of fools who know not what evil they do.’** (Eccles. Iv.,17)."
(Sermo in Vincula S. Petri, “Werke” Weimar edition, I, 69)
Martin Luther
 
joclucsylv said:
Jesus said to Peter,“You are my rock and upon this rock I will build my church.” Mathew 16:18 😃
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That passage can easily be interpeted differently in the original greek. its not so cut and dry. I know RCs whole basis is based on this passage but its not an infallible passage.
 
onemangang said:
Since you say you are Protestant (Lutheran) lets look at what Martin Luther had to say about Peter

Martin Luther
"If Christ had not entrusted all power to one man, the Church would not have been perfect because there would have been no order and each one would have been able to say [that] he was led by the Holy Spirit. This is what the heretics did, each one setting up his own principle. In this way as many Churches arose as there were heads. Christ therefore wills, in order that all may be assembled in one unity, that His power be exercised by one man to whom He Himself commits it. He has, however, made this power so strong that he looses all the powers of Hell (without injury) against it.** He says: ‘the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it’, as though He said: ‘they will fight against it but never overcome it’, so it is in this way it is made manifest that this power is in reality from God and not from man. Wherefore, whoever breaks away from this unity and order of the power, let him not boast of great enlightenment and wonderful works, as our Picards and other heretics do, ‘for much better is obedience than to be the victims of fools who know not what evil they do.’** (Eccles. Iv.,17)."
(Sermo in Vincula S. Petri, “Werke” Weimar edition, I, 69)
Martin Luther
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I wonder if that quote was taken early on in the Reformation?
 
faithalone1 said:
we both know that there isn’t 30,000 denominations.Thats complete nonsense. JESUS CHRIST is the Pillar and foundation of truth. Not a church denomintaion that tells me to “work” for my salvation. One major difference between Christianty and ALL other religions is that we must have a relationship with our faiths founder. A saving relationship and faith. islam,buddhism,etc etc all require “works” and no relationship with their founder. Other religions are systems based off of “things” to do to make it. Christianity is based on a Relationship based on a SAVING FAITH in its founder.
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Oh come on. Get 2 baptist pastors together and they will interpret scripture differently. It amazes me how protestants can take scripture so literally and believe it so deeply, but yet tip toe around certain passages.

Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
 
Cursilista said:
faithalone 1

Perhaps you havent read James Chapter 2.

Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

When would you say a Christian is saved?

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Click to expand...
 
joclucsylv said:
Oh come on. Get 2 baptist pastors together and they will interpret scripture differently. It amazes me how protestants can take scripture so literally and believe it so deeply, but yet tip toe around certain passages.

Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
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so If i read a bible and disagree with my pastor on 1 point i have then started a new denomination?
 
faithalone1 said:
we both know that there isn’t 30,000 denominations.Thats complete nonsense. JESUS CHRIST is the Pillar and foundation of truth. Not a church denomintaion that tells me to “work” for my salvation. One major difference between Christianty and ALL other religions is that we must have a relationship with our faiths founder. A saving relationship and faith. islam,buddhism,etc etc all require “works” and no relationship with their founder. Other religions are systems based off of “things” to do to make it. Christianity is based on a Relationship based on a SAVING FAITH in its founder.
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Do you believe salvation can be lost through sin??
 
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